There is no fear in love

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CadyandZoe

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John the apostle penned these words in his first epistle. I would like to hear your mind on what you think he means by this. Are we living in fear today?

1John 4:1719 NASB1995
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

(note: I'm not very good at starting threads. Please feel free to take this thread wherever it needs to go.)
 

Episkopos

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John the apostle penned these words in his first epistle. I would like to hear your mind on what you think he means by this. Are we living in fear today?

1John 4:1719 NASB1995
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

(note: I'm not very good at starting threads. Please feel free to take this thread wherever it needs to go.)


I like this thread. :)

We tend to react in the flesh when we are confronted with something we don't understand...or something that upsets what we have come to think as settled. We hate being unsettled.

And this holds especially true for how we interact with fellows believers.

What we see so often on the forum is a disregard for the inner person when people are seen as "heretics". Very few show love at any time...and downright hostility at those who don't agree with them. We tend to react with fear rather than love.

So then what does it mean to be a Christian? In truth it means we handle things differently than the world. We extend love and patience towards those with whom we don't agree...or with those who don't agree with us. We are to love even our enemies.

Hey...doesn't God see us ALL as heretics in one form or another...IF He was that judgmental in His ways? God is love. So we need to put things into an eternal perspective. We are all just learning about God and His ways. Some of us catch on quicker than others...and some of us are bound and determined to not learn a thing.

i think if we realized how much EVERYTHING we say and do affects our place in God's eternal kingdom we would tread more lightly...and try reflecting the same kind of love and patience towards others that God is displaying towards us. :)

Peace <><
 
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JohnPaul

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John the apostle penned these words in his first epistle. I would like to hear your mind on what you think he means by this. Are we living in fear today?

1John 4:1719 NASB1995
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

(note: I'm not very good at starting threads. Please feel free to take this thread wherever it needs to go.)
When we love God and his only begotten Son Christ Jesus, we have fear of nothing as we know we are protected by God almighty and his Son Christ our Savior.

I walk through the shadow of the valley of Death for I have no fear.
 

Taken

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There is no fear in love
OP ^

Fear the operative word, with two distinct meanings.
Fear...Afraid.
Fear...Reverence.

God IS Love.
Fear (Afraid) of God, is Afraid of God because one does NOT KNOW Him.

Fear (Reverence) of God, is Reverence of God because one DOES KNOW Him.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

CadyandZoe

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I like this thread. :)

We tend to react in the flesh when we are confronted with something we don't understand...or something that upsets what we have come to think as settled. We hate being unsettled.

And this holds especially true for how we interact with fellows believers.

What we see so often on the forum is a disregard for the inner person when people are seen as "heretics". Very few show love at any time...and downright hostility at those who don't agree with them. We tend to react with fear rather than love.

So then what does it mean to be a Christian? In truth it means we handle things differently than the world. We extend love and patience towards those with whom we don't agree...or with those who don't agree with us. We are to love even our enemies.

Hey...doesn't God see us ALL as heretics in one form or another...IF He was that judgmental in His ways? God is love. So we need to put things into an eternal perspective. We are all just learning about God and His ways. Some of us catch on quicker than others...and some of us are bound and determined to not learn a thing.

i think if we realized how much EVERYTHING we say and do affects our place in God's eternal kingdom we would tread more lightly...and try reflecting the same kind of love and patience towards others that God is displaying towards us. :)

Peace <><
I find a lot of insight in your post. I agree with much of what you said. Thanks for saying better than I could.
 

CadyandZoe

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When we love God and his only begotten Son Christ Jesus, we have fear of nothing as we know we are protected by God almighty and his Son Christ our Savior.

I walk through the shadow of the valley of Death for I have no fear.
Thanks for responding and what you say is certainly true and I agree with it. Do you have any advice for those who are suffering from a childhood fear? I am thinking about my pastor's friend who experienced a sudden reemergence of a childhood fear. Perhaps he just "stuffed it" his entire life. Who knows, but something triggered it and now he is bothered by it. Believe me when I say that this man is a strong Christian, who loves the Lord, is always very positive, teaches the bible and is very generous with both his time and his resources. And yet, one day, "bam" there it was.

Anyway, thanks for your post.
 
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CadyandZoe

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There is no fear in love
OP ^

Fear the operative word, with two distinct meanings.
Fear...Afraid.
Fear...Reverence.

God IS Love.
Fear (Afraid) of God, is Afraid of God because one does NOT KNOW Him.

Fear (Reverence) of God, is Reverence of God because one DOES KNOW Him.

Glory to God,
Taken
A very helpful distinction. Thanks.
 
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JohnPaul

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Thanks for responding and what you say is certainly true and I agree with it. Do you have any advice for those who are suffering from a childhood fear? I am thinking about my pastor's friend who experienced a sudden reemergence of a childhood fear. Perhaps he just "stuffed it" his entire life. Who knows, but something triggered it and now he is bothered by it. Believe me when I say that this man is a strong Christian, who loves the Lord, is always very positive, teaches the bible and is very generous with both his time and his resources. And yet, one day, "bam" there it was.

Anyway, thanks for your post.
The only thing I can recommend is continuous prayer, if it continues to bother him to the extreme maybe he’ll have to see therapist someone he can talk to, sometimes we need counseling to help us get over something.
 
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ChristisGod

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A different perspective on fear . Perfect love casts our all fear . Does our love for Christ make everything else in this life pale in comparison?

It has been said that a person is not ready to live until they are first ready to die. That means only once we are ready to die are, we actually ready to live.

In Christendom the reality is most live for themselves and not for the Lord. So, my question is why would the same people want to be in heaven with the Lord when they do not live for Him here?

It’s because of the fear of death, judgment and hell- an escape. People want a free meal ticket out to so they just have to " accept Jesus" then continue to live for themselves.

The disciples sure didn't fear death they looked forward to dying for the sake of the gospel and counted all things lost for Christ. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul desired greatly to be with the Lord and was tortured like Jesus was beaten numerous times and thrown into prison.

Each one of us most likely is wanting to live and might willing to die. Paul was the opposite. Paul was willing to live for the sake of the gospel, but wanting to die and be with the Lord.

Paul writes this facing death after his brutal beating

Philippians 1:20-26
I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

2 Corinthians 11:23-29
I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
 

Randy Kluth

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John the apostle penned these words in his first epistle. I would like to hear your mind on what you think he means by this. Are we living in fear today?

1John 4:1719 NASB1995
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

(note: I'm not very good at starting threads. Please feel free to take this thread wherever it needs to go.)

1 John is one of my favorite letters of the NT! I at one time had the whole thing memorized. This is a fairly easy passage for me. The purpose of the Gospel was to ensure those who chose to live by it that they would not have to fear ever being separated from God. The evidence of our eternal salvation is in the love that we have acquired from him and have been able to put into practice. Having this love and demonstrating it to others shows that we have eternal life, and need never fear God's eternal punishment.
 
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Hidden In Him

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John the apostle penned these words in his first epistle. I would like to hear your mind on what you think he means by this. Are we living in fear today?

1John 4:1719 NASB1995
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

(note: I'm not very good at starting threads. Please feel free to take this thread wherever it needs to go.)

I learned something a little more clearly in preparing to answer this thread. The full context of your passage is this:

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 16 God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear brings torment. He who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

So the teaching is essentially saying this: That we will not come to the place of perfectly loving others at all times unless we eliminate fear from our hearts and minds completely. So long as we walk in any fear whatsoever, to the extent that we do, our own fears of what others might do to us will torment us and we will "feel" the pain of what they might do, even if they never actually do so. We make them to harm us through our own anxiety and imagination, and this causes us to lash out at them instead of love them. In other instances, they truly are sinning against us, yet it is our fear that things will not be set aright that causes us to lash out, taking judgment into our own hands rather than letting judgment be God's.

And here's an interesting observation: The apostle Paul even struggled with this. It's why he could come off a pretty rough and aggressive sometimes. In one place, while listing the things he suffered in preaching the gospel, he said the following:

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Three times was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which comes upon me daily, the anxiety over all the churches. (2 Corinthians 11)

Paul had reason to be anxious for the churches. Satan was constantly coming in behind him and spreading heresy through the congregations he was ministering to, which is why so many times he wrote, "I do not want you to be ignorant of how many times I wanted to come to you, but the enemy hindered me."

This is where I struggle as well. I know how good the enemy is at deceiving, which brings me into anxiety. When attacked on a position I know to be the truth, I usually have no real concern about how people see me for my own sake (I honesty don't care), but I have a great deal of concern for how the truth will appear in the eyes of others if such attacks are not addressed, and firmly, and if I fear the truth appears as if it is being cast down, I can retaliate, and rather viciously sometimes.

Still working through that one, but I find it interesting that even the strongest in the Christian faith struggled with casting out all fear to walk in perfect love towards others at all times. I think it involves trusting in God that even if your work can seem to get torn down (for a time, or even permanently in some instances), God has all things in His hands, and it will not be your fault if some people go to Hell because you were not there to save them.

Any thoughts?
 
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Hidden In Him

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I am thinking about my pastor's friend who experienced a sudden reemergence of a childhood fear. Perhaps he just "stuffed it" his entire life. Who knows, but something triggered it and now he is bothered by it. Believe me when I say that this man is a strong Christian, who loves the Lord, is always very positive, teaches the bible and is very generous with both his time and his resources. And yet, one day, "bam" there it was.

Anyway, thanks for your post.


As per my previous post, I would tell him just trust in the judgment of God; that He is watching out for him, and to just do as Peter said, which is to "cast all your anxieties upon Him, for He cares for you."
 

Webers_Home

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I think it's a mistake to assume that the love John wrote about makes
somebody fearless. I think he means it only makes them lose their fear of
retribution.

Back in 1968-- when for the first time ever I prayed to God to take
advantage of the death of His son --something eerie came over me and
assured me that I was out of danger of going to Hell. I was so overwhelmed
with relief that I broke into tears. I didn't realize till then just how amped up
with anxiety I had been over the dread of going to Hell.

My reaction wasn't rare. People are often overcome with emotion when
they've dodged a really big bullet, resolved a difficult issue, or overcome an
impossible hurdle.
_
 
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Hidden In Him

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I think it's a mistake to assume that the love John wrote about makes
somebody fearless. I think he means it only makes them lose their fear of
retribution.

This is actually how I used to interpret the verse, but when I was going through the letter again late last year I saw how the context actually speaks against it.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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A different perspective on fear . Perfect love casts our all fear . Does our love for Christ make everything else in this life pale in comparison?

It has been said that a person is not ready to live until they are first ready to die. That means only once we are ready to die are, we actually ready to live.

In Christendom the reality is most live for themselves and not for the Lord. So, my question is why would the same people want to be in heaven with the Lord when they do not live for Him here?

It’s because of the fear of death, judgment and hell- an escape. People want a free meal ticket out to so they just have to " accept Jesus" then continue to live for themselves.

The disciples sure didn't fear death they looked forward to dying for the sake of the gospel and counted all things lost for Christ. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul desired greatly to be with the Lord and was tortured like Jesus was beaten numerous times and thrown into prison.

Each one of us most likely is wanting to live and might willing to die. Paul was the opposite. Paul was willing to live for the sake of the gospel, but wanting to die and be with the Lord.

Paul writes this facing death after his brutal beating

Philippians 1:20-26
I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

2 Corinthians 11:23-29
I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

i like this.
 
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CadyandZoe

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1 John is one of my favorite letters of the NT! I at one time had the whole thing memorized. This is a fairly easy passage for me. The purpose of the Gospel was to ensure those who chose to live by it that they would not have to fear ever being separated from God. The evidence of our eternal salvation is in the love that we have acquired from him and have been able to put into practice. Having this love and demonstrating it to others shows that we have eternal life, and need never fear God's eternal punishment.
Good to hear from you Randy. Yes, how important and significant is our love today, when loving one another becomes harder and more profound. Well said.
 

CadyandZoe

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I learned something a little more clearly in preparing to answer this thread. The full context of your passage is this:

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 16 God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear brings torment. He who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

So the teaching is essentially saying this: That we will not come to the place of perfectly loving others at all times unless we eliminate fear from our hearts and minds completely. So long as we walk in any fear whatsoever, to the extent that we do, our own fears of what others might do to us will torment us and we will "feel" the pain of what they might do, even if they never actually do so. We make them to harm us through our own anxiety and imagination, and this causes us to lash out at them instead of love them. In other instances, they truly are sinning against us, yet it is our fear that things will not be set aright that causes us to lash out, taking judgment into our own hands rather than letting judgment be God's.

And here's an interesting observation: The apostle Paul even struggled with this. It's why he could come off a pretty rough and aggressive sometimes. In one place, while listing the things he suffered in preaching the gospel, he said the following:

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Three times was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which comes upon me daily, the anxiety over all the churches. (2 Corinthians 11)

Paul had reason to be anxious for the churches. Satan was constantly coming in behind him and spreading heresy through the congregations he was ministering to, which is why so many times he wrote, "I do not want you to be ignorant of how many times I wanted to come to you, but the enemy hindered me."

This is where I struggle as well. I know how good the enemy is at deceiving, which brings me into anxiety. When attacked on a position I know to be the truth, I usually have no real concern about how people see me for my own sake (I honesty don't care), but I have a great deal of concern for how the truth will appear in the eyes of others if such attacks are not addressed, and firmly, and if I fear the truth appears as if it is being cast down, I can retaliate, and rather viciously sometimes.

Still working through that one, but I find it interesting that even the strongest in the Christian faith struggled with casting out all fear to walk in perfect love towards others at all times. I think it involves trusting in God that even if your work can seem to get torn down (for a time, or even permanently in some instances), God has all things in His hands, and it will not be your fault if some people go to Hell because you were not there to save them.

Any thoughts?
I don't want to sound too condescending but I think what you said is also insightful. Fantasy, not reason is the enemy of our faith. I agree that fear exists in our minds and especially in our imagination. And I suppose if we can have adultery in our hearts, it is possible to have hatred, which is born of fear, anxiety and suspicion.

Your observations about Paul are right on. What I mean is this. From Paul we learn that failure in the midst of struggle is okay. God has perfect love and because of this, he allows room for us to make mistakes and moral failures along our journey. Even the greatest men of faith fail at times. Am I making excuses? No, that is not my intent. I'm saying that God has patience with those who are willing to know themselves, admit failure when it takes place, take responsibility for it, and yet, never give up.

Something like that anyway.

Good word, thanks.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I think it's a mistake to assume that the love John wrote about makes
somebody fearless. I think he means it only makes them lose their fear of
retribution.

Back in 1968-- when for the first time ever I prayed to God to take
advantage of the death of His son --something eerie came over me and
assured me that I was out of danger of going to Hell. I was so overwhelmed
with relief that I broke into tears. I didn't realize till then just how amped up
with anxiety I had been over the dread of going to Hell.

My reaction wasn't rare. People are often overcome with emotion when
they've dodged a really big bullet, resolved a difficult issue, or overcome an
impossible hurdle.
_
I recognize what you are saying here and I agree that if we fear God, we don't need to fear hell. Right?
 

CadyandZoe

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A different perspective on fear . Perfect love casts our all fear . Does our love for Christ make everything else in this life pale in comparison?

It has been said that a person is not ready to live until they are first ready to die. That means only once we are ready to die are, we actually ready to live.
Interesting point and I think people should consider it. Some fear to die; others fear to live. Good point.

The disciples sure didn't fear death they looked forward to dying for the sake of the gospel and counted all things lost for Christ. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul desired greatly to be with the Lord and was tortured like Jesus was beaten numerous times and thrown into prison.

@Hidden In Him was just pointing out that God leaves room for failure in this regard, which reminds me of Peter's denial of Jesus. It seems to me that although Peter strongly voiced his loyalty to Jesus, he found disloyalty in himself when he denied his master and his friend. Jesus' love cast out the fear that lay hidden in Peter's heart when Peter admitted his failure and Jesus forgave it. As you rightly point out, the disciples eventually became fearless spokes-people for the Lord. I guess it takes practice and dedication.

Like Peter, I imagine that I would never deny Jesus when the deal goes down, but who knows, maybe I might. Can't really know until tested.

Good thoughts as usual Christophany.