They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Zao is life]

The New Testament was not written in English. It was written in Greek (though many Christians make Greek out of what the New Testament says in English).

Note that the fact that people being killed specifically for refusing to worship the beast or his image, or receiving his mark or the number of his name, is mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4), makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of the beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived [záō] and reigned with Christ * a thousand years. *

* This is the first "the resurrection" (o anastasis). Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)

* Linked with this passage are the thrones that John saw, and the judgment (in the sense of ruling as judges) given to the souls mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6.

Not one New Testament verse employing any of the words associated with The Resurrection (ho anástasis) is not talking about the resurrection of the body. Not one (list of verses to follow).

Not one New Testament verse using the word záō is not talking either about the living God, or about people who are alive in their own bodies. Not one (list of verses to follow).

As far as those who had been beheaded are concerned, their "living" (zao) following their beheading only means one thing in the context of the passage:

Záō: list of verses

Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). All of them are referring either to the living (záō) God, or in reference to being alive (záō) in human bodies:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

Mankind was created to live on earth, in a body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven". The Greek noun used in the New Testament for bodily resurrection from death is ho anástasis: ("The Resurrection"). Without exception, each and every time the word anástasis appears in the New Testament, it's referring to (the) resurrection of the body (which is an integral part of the gospel):-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The other words associated with The Resurrection (ho anástasis) are égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō.

Note: Sometimes they are used for rising up or rising from sleep in a normal sense, but wherever they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead":-

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

I've quoted each and every verse listed above in a table at the bottom of the following page:

The Resurrection of the Body

M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about people who had been literally beheaded for refusal to worship the beast, who had literally risen from the dead with spiritual bodies, reigning with Christ a thousand years. Nothing else. Anything else is making an unknown Greek of the English.

".. BUT .. " the argument goes, ".. it's talking about a spiritual resurrection. There is first a spiritual resurrection (when we are born of the Spirit), then a resurrection of the body."

Well, if that's been your argument, then please consider the following questions:

1. Bearing in mind that all the words used in reference to resurrection in the New Testament are talking only about the resurrection of the body from the dead, when did you die spiritually?,

2. Where are the New Testament verses that use any one of the words used in reference to the resurrection that talk about a spiritual resurrection?​

 

[Jay Ross]

The New Testament was not written in English. It was written in Greek (though many Christians make Greek out of what the New Testament says in English).

Note that the fact that people being killed specifically for refusing to worship the beast or his image, or receiving his mark or the number of his name, is mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4), makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of the beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

You are right that people turn the English scriptures into Greek. It is what you have done.

You have stated that "Revelation 20:4, makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of the beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

Let us consider Rev 19, it spans all of the Seventh age just like Rev 20 also spans all of the seventh age. As such Rev 20 does not follow Rev 19 but both chapters run in parallel with each other. When Satan is imprisoned in Rev 20:1-3 we are told in Rev 19 that Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth and that the marriage of the Lamb takes place shortly after He is given dominion over the peoples of the earth.

Then when Satan is released form the bottomless pit, after His imprisonment of 1,000 years, we also have the Beast of Daniel 7:19ff and the False Prophet, i.e., the Little Horn of Daniel 7 also rising up out of the Bottomless pit and together they all roam over the face of the earth gathering an army to march against the city of Jerusalem.

Since this is the case, then there is a very short time period between when the beast and the false prophet is dispatched into the lake of Fire and Satan also being captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire also.

If our chronological understanding of the book of Revelation is jumbled up, then we will have a flawed understanding of the events that will take place during the seventh age.

As you have said, the scriptures have been turned into Greek by yourself as well.

Goodbye

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is a resurrection from the dead because to be alive after having died is a resurrection.


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive (zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Christ used the same exact word (zao) regarding the result of his own physical resurrection. Did Christ not live again physically and in immortality after being dead?


Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live (zao) .

Here is the same word. Anytime someone who is dead is said to "live" (zao) it's the result of a physical resurrection.





Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These people are the first of the human dead to go from death to living just as Christ did and this new living is immortality just as Christ rose in an immortal body. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is like Christ's own resurrection. There can be no doubt or argument that verse 4 is saying the beheaded saints resurrected and the fact that the rest of the dead did not come to life with the beheaded further proves this as well.

 

[Zao is life]

There is no "Seventh age" of the earth mentioned anywhere in scripture and if someone has that much extra-biblical invented doctrine clouding their thinking, and also ignores what the scriptures actually say about the timing for the binding of Satan, then it's no wonder they have the chronology of the Revelation jumbled up.​

A ONE THOUSAND YEAR IMPRISONMENT ​

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

--- Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7). ---
​

THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN'S WORKS
AND THE BINDING OF SATAN​

This is what we have been told about this:

"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.

"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.

The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.

"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

1. Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.

2. The destruction of Satan's works will not last only for a thousand years, only to be "reversed for a short period at the close of the thousand years", as though his works were merely bound for a thousand years.

3. Not only is the devil not more powerful than God, Satan is not even nearly as powerful as the Holy Spirit, who is infinitely more powerful than Satan, and Satan does not need to be 'bound' in order for God to work or for the gospel of the Kingdom of Christ to spread. God is far more powerful than the devil, and the devil can be bound by God at will, at any time. Jesus showed He was able to do this each time He cast out demons, even before His death and resurrection. Satan's power to cause disruption in the spread of God's Kingdom in the world has always been limited to how much God will allow him.​

 

[Zao is life]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is a resurrection from the dead because to be alive after having died is a resurrection.


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive (zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Christ used the same exact word (zao) regarding the result of his own physical resurrection. Did Christ not live again physically and in immortality after being dead?


Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live (zao) .

Here is the same word. Anytime someone who is dead is said to "live" (zao) it's the result of a physical resurrection.





Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These people are the first of the human dead to go from death to living just as Christ did and this new living is immortality just as Christ rose in an immortal body. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is like Christ's own resurrection. There can be no doubt or argument that verse 4 is saying the beheaded saints resurrected and the fact that the rest of the dead did not come to life with the beheaded further proves this as well.

We are resurrected with His resurrection and our immortality is IN Him:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has
(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And

(B) has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Our resurrection and immortality is IN Christ:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. John 11:25

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor.15:22

Christ alone is immortal and our immortality will never be in ourselves because He alone has life in Himself:

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,

whom no human has ever seen

or is able to see.

To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. -- 1 John 5:11

This is why He alone has the keys of death and of hades:

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

When Adam was immortal and before he began to die, the words "You will not surely die" became the first lie because it implies that Adam (the creature) has life in Himself, instead of in the Word (Creator) through whom He was created. Life was and always is IN the Word:

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. -- John 1:4

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, (o. logos) and the Word (o. logos) was with God, and the Word (o. logos) was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. -- John 15:6.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour all those who rebel against the rule of the faithful martyrs over them, a thousand years after the resurrection of all the dead who died in Christ.

John 15
5 I am the vine, all of you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me all of you can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Adam's death was the first death: Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned: -- Romans 5:12.

Jesus' resurrection is the resurrection of Adam: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. John 11:25.

There will be a second death.

If the beast and false prophet will be cast alive (záō) while still in their mortal bodies into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20), then those who join the final rebellion can be consumed by fire while they are alive (záō) in their immortal bodies (Revelation 20:9).​

 

[Davidpt]

If the beast and false prophet will be cast alive (záō) while still in their mortal bodies into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20), then those who join the final rebellion can be consumed by fire while they are alive (záō) in their immortal bodies (Revelation 20:9).[/JUSTIFY]

Per this scenario this would indicate that these cast into the LOF can never die the 2nd death if they are in immortal bodies, thus everlasting conscious torment . The question is, how did they obtain these immortal bodies to begin with when there are no Scriptures indicating that the unsaved receive immortal bodies as well?

 

[Zao is life]

Per this scenario this would indicate that these cast into the LOF can never die the 2nd death if they are in immortal bodies, thus everlasting conscious torment . The question is, how did they obtain these immortal bodies to begin with when there are no Scriptures indicating that the unsaved receive immortal bodies as well?

They are not unsaved. They are the saved, resurrected who do not abide in the vine when Satan was released again at the close of the thousand years - just as Adam did not abide in the Word of God, but instead believed the lie that said "You will not sure die" which implied that Adam's immortality | eternal life was in himself.

@Davidpt The lake of fire IS the second death (Revelation 20:14 & 21:8). The beast & false prophet are cast alive (zao) in their bodies into the lake of fire, which is the second death. That's 1,000 years before the GWT.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8​

 

[Zao is life]

@Davidpt I don't agree with everything he says (he seems to be a Calvinist with respect to predestination), and I question what he says about where the Gog-Magog rebels come from (although he could be right and I could be wrong about who the Gog-Magog rebels are), but otherwise he is spot-on, and a very good speaker, the way he makes it so clear what he is saying.

Compare the above video with all the conjecture and putting things together that do not belong together in the video below, which is reflective of all the Amillennial arguments we hear in these forums, such as through sheer conjecture taking the words of Jesus, when driving demons out of individuals and being accused by the Pharisees of doing so by beelzebub, mentioning the simple fact that no one can break into a strong man's house and spoil his goods unless he first binds the strong man, to mean that it's referring to Christ 'binding' Satan through His death and resurrection,

and combining it, using more conjecture and putting things together that do not belong together, with the statements which speak of Christ destroying Satan's works through His destruction of Satan's power over death, while ignoring the fact that this destruction of Satan's power over death will not last only a thousand years (symbolic or not), only to be undone when Satan is unbound again for a brief period:​

 

[PinSeeker]

Per this scenario this would indicate that these cast into the LOF can never die the 2nd death if they are in immortal bodies, thus everlasting conscious torment . The question is, how did they obtain these immortal bodies to begin with when there are no Scriptures indicating that the unsaved receive immortal bodies as well?

We know that the final resurrection is physical and general to all, and that the final Judgment occurs after this final (second) resurrection. We see that in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, and Revelation 20:11-15. This resurrection has two outcomes: many are resurrected to eternal life, and many are resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29). The latter, after the Judgment, depart obediently into this judgment, to this place away from the New Heaven and New Earth (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15) where... well, all we can discern about it is that it is a place apart from true life and a place of unspeakable anguish, agony and sadness, where there is no rest, no comfort, and no escape... an existence of unending torment (Matthew 7:21-23, Mark 9:48, Luke 16:23-26).

Note: There is no "torment" or "torture" inflicted upon anyone by anyone else, much less God. What we might say, though, is that, in a very real sense, residents of this place inflict this torment upon themselves ~ in this life, they put themselves on the wrong side (on Jesus's left) of the final Judgment, and there is no escape. It's really an absolutely terrifying thought.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davidpt]

They are not unsaved. They are the saved, resurrected who do not abide in the vine when Satan was released again at the close of the thousand years - just as Adam did not abide in the Word of God, but instead believed the lie that said "You will not sure die" which implied that Adam's immortality | eternal life was in himself.

@Davidpt The lake of fire IS the second death (Revelation 20:14 & 21:8). The beast & false prophet are cast alive (zao) in their bodies into the lake of fire, which is the second death. That's 1,000 years before the GWT.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8​

My thinking on some of this in general is basically the following.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The text indicates that the fire from God out of heaven devoured them. How does one in an immortal body get devoured? For one, this verse seems to disprove Amil since Amil apparently has this paralleling Revelation 19:20-21 and that Revelation 19:20 indicates that both the beast and fp are taken and cast alive into the LOF. Therefore, Revelation 19:20 can't be involving Revelation 20:9 since the latter are devoured and that the former aren't if they are taken alive and cast into the LOF. The point being, being devoured can't be associated with still being alive, in any sense, after having been devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Obviously, no one in immortal bodies can die to begin with. Therefore, immortals being devoured by fire out of heaven doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, the LOF can't be meant by this fire from God out of heaven, and that this fire is something that devours you.

 

[Davidpt]

Compare the above video with all the conjecture and putting things together that do not belong together in the video below, which is reflective of all the Amillennial arguments we hear in these forums, such as through sheer conjecture taking the words of Jesus, when driving demons out of individuals and being accused by the Pharisees of doing so by beelzebub, mentioning the simple fact that no one can break into a strong man's house and spoil his goods unless he first binds the strong man, to mean that it's referring to Christ 'binding' Satan through His death and resurrection,

and combining it, using more conjecture and putting things together that do not belong together, with the statements which speak of Christ destroying Satan's works through His destruction of Satan's power over death, while ignoring the fact that this destruction of Satan's power over death will not last only a thousand years (symbolic or not), only to be undone when Satan is unbound again for a brief period:​

When I initially saw this post the other day, I set out to watch them both. The first one I pretty much watched all the way through except for the last minute or two. The 2nd one I tried to watch all the through but got bored with it in about 5 minutes into it. Thus never watched it all the way through. Therefore, I guess I can't give a fair comparison assessment of these videos other than, the first video won't bore you to death, the 2nd one will.

 

[PinSeeker]

Revelation 20:9... The text indicates that the fire from God out of heaven devoured them. >>> How does one in an immortal body get devoured?

Your question here does not (well, should not, because it does not) follow from what the text says (actually, what it seems to indicate, if not understood correctly). This question only arises when the nature of John's vision is seen as something it is not. Among other things, it is seen erroneously by many as woodenly literal. Rather, it should be understood in the same context as Jacob's dreams in Genesis ~ a symbolic portrayal of ~ and thus figuratively indicative and descriptive of ~ actual things/events, but not the things/events themselves.

For one, this verse seems to disprove Amil since Amil apparently has this paralleling Revelation 19:20-21 and that Revelation 19:20 indicates that both the beast and fp are taken and cast alive into the LOF. Therefore, Revelation 19:20 can't be involving Revelation 20:9 since the latter are devoured and that the former aren't if they are taken alive and cast into the LOF. The point being, being devoured can't be associated with still being alive, in any sense, after having been devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Obviously, no one in immortal bodies can die to begin with. Therefore, immortals being devoured by fire out of heaven doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, the LOF can't be meant by this fire from God out of heaven, and that this fire is something that devours you.

Our God is a consuming fire.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Your question here does not (well, should not, because it does not) follow from what the text says (actually, what it seems to indicate, if not understood correctly). This question only arises when the nature of John's vision is seen as something it is not. Among other things, it is seen erroneously by many as woodenly literal. Rather, it should be understood in the same context as Jacob's dreams in Genesis ~ a symbolic portrayal of ~ and thus figuratively indicative and descriptive of ~ actual things/events, but not the things/events themselves.


Our God is a consuming fire.

Grace and peace to you.

When I read something such as Revelation 20:9, it reminds me of what happened per what is recorded in Genesis 19, for instance.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;


I absolutely take this in the literal sense and then conclude that this fire from the LORD out of heaven literally devoured them at the time. One is to believe, though God could literally do that in the past, He can't literally do something like that in the future?

Granted, there's a lot of symbolism going on in the book of Revelation, but even so, that doesn't have to mean some of it can't literally mean what it says, though. For example, these earthquakes recorded throughout the book of Revelation. Why would anyone not want to take them in the literal sense? As if there can't be literal earthquakes when these things are being fulfilled. That earthquakes can no longer happen at some point. Therefore, any end times events involving earthquakes in Revelation are not to be taken in the literal sense, since earthquakes quit happening at some point, thus can't happen during any of the events involving earthquakes recorded in the book of Revelation.

 

[JBO]

2. Where are the New Testament verses that use any one of the words used in reference to the resurrection that talk about a spiritual resurrection?​

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[PinSeeker]

When I read something such as Revelation 20:9, it reminds me of what happened per what is recorded in Genesis 19, for instance.

Well, fine. But what happened in Genesis 19 was an actual historical event, while what is related in Revelation 20:9 is a vision ~ a vivid dream ~ metaphorical of a future event, like, as I said, Jacob's dreams concerning his brothers... who are portrayed in the dream as sheaves and then stars.

One is to believe, though God could literally do that in the past, He can't literally do something like that in the future?

He could, certainly. But...

Granted, there's a lot of symbolism going on in the book of Revelation, but even so, that doesn't have to mean some of it can't literally mean what it says, though. For example, these earthquakes recorded throughout the book of Revelation. Why would anyone not want to take them in the literal sense? As if there can't be literal earthquakes when these things are being fulfilled. That earthquakes can no longer happen at some point. Therefore, any end times events involving earthquakes in Revelation are not to be taken in the literal sense, since earthquakes quit happening at some point, thus can't happen during any of the events involving earthquakes recorded in the book of Revelation.

Hmmm... Well, all I would say is that if there are a few literal things in Revelation, does that necessarily then mean that they all are? Kudos to you for acknowledging "a lot of symbolism" in Revelation, though.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

My thinking on some of this in general is basically the following.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The text indicates that the fire from God out of heaven devoured them. How does one in an immortal body get devoured? For one, this verse seems to disprove Amil since Amil apparently has this paralleling Revelation 19:20-21 and that Revelation 19:20 indicates that both the beast and fp are taken and cast alive into the LOF. Therefore, Revelation 19:20 can't be involving Revelation 20:9 since the latter are devoured and that the former aren't if they are taken alive and cast into the LOF. The point being, being devoured can't be associated with still being alive, in any sense, after having been devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Obviously, no one in immortal bodies can die to begin with. Therefore, immortals being devoured by fire out of heaven doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, the LOF can't be meant by this fire from God out of heaven, and that this fire is something that devours you.

Please understand that I'm not claiming to be correct (as in beyond the shadow of any doubt correct) on what I've said to you about this.

The word devour in Revelation 20:9 is a translation of the word katesthíō, which is from the words (a) esthíō, which means to eat alive (i.e be eaten alive); and (b) katá which in the context denotes the intensity and manner in which they are thus destroyed.

So let's consider all the following things, and compare them:-

1. "And fear not them which kill [apokteínō] the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [apóllymi] both soul and body in géenna"

[apokteínō]
G00615 ἀποκτείνω apokteínō ap-ok-ti'-no from 575 and κτείνω kteínō, (to slay);
to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:--put to death, kill, slay.

[apóllymi]
G00622 apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee
from 575 and the base of 3639;
to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah
of Hebrew origin [01516 and 02011];
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell. (Strongs Greek 1067).

The above word is always used in the verses where Jesus spoke of a place or condition of damnation, or everlasting punishment (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6).

2. Scripture tells us that only Christ is immortal and only Christ has life in Himself, and that our life is IN CHRIST.

Adam did not live forever in his fallen state, which was also mercy. God was going to send His Son into the world. The Word of God was going to take on human flesh, bear all the sins of mankind upon Himself, die and be raised again on the third day, becoming THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25).

So bearing the above in mind, what happens when the beast and the false prophet are cast ALIVE (zao) into the lake of fire? And what happens when those who are resurrected for the GWT are cast into the lake of fire?

Why do most Premillennialists believe that it's possible for the rest of the dead to be resurrected for the GWT and only then be cast into the lake of fire in their resurrected bodies (i.e zao), yet they have a problem with the notion that the Gog-Magog rebellion is the rebellion of already resurrected saints who were deceived by Satan after the thousand years (the way Adam was at the close of the sabbath in the Garden of Eden)? Are not the words "devoured by fire", "cast alive into the lake of fire" etc - not symbolic human words given to help us to understand the spiritual reality of going alive (soul and body) into géenna?

Maybe the Premillennialists in the church, the body of Christ, have made a huge false assumption, making it necessary for them to squeeze out of scripture, references to mortals into the millennium that in fact are not even in scripture.

"And fear not them which kill [apokteínō] the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [apóllymi] both soul and body in géenna".​

 

[Zao is life]

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

A natural BODY. A spiritual BODY is talking about the resurrection of THE BODY.

 

[Zao is life]

When I initially saw this post the other day, I set out to watch them both. The first one I pretty much watched all the way through except for the last minute or two. The 2nd one I tried to watch all the through but got bored with it in about 5 minutes into it. Thus never watched it all the way through. Therefore, I guess I can't give a fair comparison assessment of these videos other than, the first video won't bore you to death, the 2nd one will.

I understand, fully. Amills generally all seem to be nice, and yet boring.

Nice and boring

 

[JBO]

A natural BODY. A spiritual BODY is talking about the resurrection of THE BODY.

You haven't a clue about what a spiritual body is. And neither does anyone else, not even Jesus' apostles.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

 

[Hobie]

The New Testament was not written in English. It was written in Greek (though many Christians make Greek out of what the New Testament says in English).

Note that the fact that people being killed specifically for refusing to worship the beast or his image, or receiving his mark or the number of his name, is mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4), makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of the beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived [záō] and reigned with Christ * a thousand years. *

* This is the first "the resurrection" (o anastasis). Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)

* Linked with this passage are the thrones that John saw, and the judgment (in the sense of ruling as judges) given to the souls mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6.

Not one New Testament verse employing any of the words associated with The Resurrection (ho anástasis) is not talking about the resurrection of the body. Not one (list of verses to follow).

Not one New Testament verse using the word záō is not talking either about the living God, or about people who are alive in their own bodies. Not one (list of verses to follow).

As far as those who had been beheaded are concerned, their "living" (zao) following their beheading only means one thing in the context of the passage:

Záō: list of verses

Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). All of them are referring either to the living (záō) God, or in reference to being alive (záō) in human bodies:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

Mankind was created to live on earth, in a body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven". The Greek noun used in the New Testament for bodily resurrection from death is ho anástasis: ("The Resurrection"). Without exception, each and every time the word anástasis appears in the New Testament, it's referring to (the) resurrection of the body (which is an integral part of the gospel):-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The other words associated with The Resurrection (ho anástasis) are égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō. Sometimes they are used for rising up or rising from sleep in a normal sense, but wherever they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead":-

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about people who had been literally beheaded for refusal to worship the beast, who had literally risen from the dead with spiritual bodies, reigning with Christ a thousand years. Nothing else. Anything else is making an unknown Greek of the English.

".. BUT .. " the argument goes, ".. it's talking about a spiritual resurrection. There is first a spiritual resurrection (when we are born of the Spirit), then a resurrection of the body."

Well, if that's been your argument, then please consider the following questions:

1. Bearing in mind that all the words used in reference to resurrection in the New Testament are talking only about the resurrection of the body from the dead, when did you die spiritually?,

2. Where are the New Testament verses that use any one of the words used in reference to the resurrection that talk about a spiritual resurrection?​

There is only a bodily resurrection every time the spirit is just the breath of life, but people get confused and try to make it more.