They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[JBO]

I have never understood the penchant of those proposing a material or corporal body upon resurrection. The material, physical body in this world is specifically tailored to the needs of this physical world. Is eternal life in heaven going to be in any way similar to this physical existence? Will we need legs and feet to get around? Will we need arms and hands to manipulate things? What things? Will we need ears to hear, a nose to smell, a mouth to talk or eat? None of that makes any sense at all to me. Nor is it in the least desirable as far as I am concerned. Given that the present body is the primary source for nearly all of our sins, I have no desire to repeat that in the next life. And given the biblical faults assigned to the flesh, I can't believe that there will be anything the least bit similar to that in heaven.

My own view is that we will finally become fully complete and perfect in our spirits and no longer limited in any way by some materially composed outer shell.

 

[JBO]

If you want it, I made a complete list of all the N.T words used for resurrection and the context each on is found in. It's in a table at the bottom of this page:

@CadyandZoe

The Resurrection of the Body

M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

That is a very interesting study. I will spend some time with it.

However, I find it interesting that, so far as I can determine, whenever the subject is the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns, the Greek word is ἀνάστασις [anastasis}. When the subject is the bringing back to life here on earth of one who has died, the Greek word is ἔγερσις [egersis}. That is true also for Jesus' resurrection following His crucifixion (Matt 27:53). And it is true of those spoken of who came out of their tombs in Matthew 27:52.

I could be wrong, but I think that is pretty much what your study as shown as well.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you think the phrase "dead in the trespasses and sins" as in Ephesians 2:1 means?

We understand the meaning of a term from within the context of the passage.

Ephesians 2:1-7

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

by nature children of wrath

Paul compares and contrasts our former life walking in sin, with our current life walking with Christ. In that context, he mentions three distinct aspects of our walking in sin: we were "dead" in our trespasses and sins, we walked according to the course of this world, and we were, by nature, children of wrath. Given these three aspects, what can it mean to be "dead"? Obviously, Paul is using the term "dead" in a figurative sense. Those who are literally dead can't walk at all, let alone walk according to the course of this world. Even here we have two plausible options for what Paul might have meant: 1) Prudence, or 2) Death sentence

Death Sentence:
Dead = sentenced to death. According to the New Testament, death is the just penalty for sin. Death in the figurative sense can describe the end of something, such as a relationship, a career, or a phase of life. It can also be used to describe a feeling of emptiness or loss, such as the death of a dream or hope. Finally, it can also be used to indicate capital punishment, which is to take place at the final judgment. Ultimately, Paul says, we were by nature children of wrath.

Alive = pardoned. To be alive, in this sense is to have one's sins forgiven, to be pardoned, and to be set free from death producing activities. Those in Christ will implement a course of action consisting of "Life-giving" activities. Life-giving activities are actions that promote a sense of well-being, happiness and fulfillment: volunteering, self-care, creative pursuits, spending time in nature, and connecting with others. These are among the many life-giving activities available to those who follow Christ and live according to the course that he sets for our life. We are not only freed from the death penalty; we are free to practice beneficial and rewarding activities that promote life.

Prudence:
Dead = Ineffectual. Our evaluation of the effectiveness of a particular course of action is based on the aim or goal we have set for ourselves. As human beings, we all strive for peace, prosperity, well-being, fulfillment, and human flourishing. In order to achieve these desirable conditions, we need to implement a specific course of action. The question is, what steps or actions should we take to attain these beneficial ends? "If someone chooses to follow the ways of this world, which are controlled by the ruler of the air, they have chosen a path that is pointless, ineffective, fruitless, and futile. Those who walk according to this world are unable to achieve true peace with God, prosperity, or well-being. Their way of life is essentially dead and cannot lead to human flourishing."

Alive = effectual. If someone chooses to follow the ways of Christ, he leads that individual in the course of action that will eventually result in an effective means to gain peace with God, human flourishing, well-being, and human fulfillment.

Either Paul was talking about "prudence" or he was talking about pardon. He wasn't saying that a spirit was dead.

 

[Zao is life]

I have never understood the penchant of those proposing a material or corporal body upon resurrection. The material, physical body in this world is specifically tailored to the needs of this physical world.

The next question defines your misunderstanding of the gospel:

Is eternal life in heaven going to be in any way similar to this physical existence?

Mankind was created to live on earth, in a body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven".

Revelation 21
1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, .."
10 " And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God, .."

New heavens. New EARTH.

Why do you think it was necessary for Jesus to die and rise again bodily?

Will we need legs and feet to get around? Will we need arms and hands to manipulate things?

Yes.

What things?

The things on earth. The things of the new creation.

Will we need ears to hear, a nose to smell, a mouth to talk or eat?

Yes.

None of that makes any sense at all to me.

It's because you have misunderstood the gospel. God's purpose for creating Adam was not so that he would die and go to heaven when he dies. God created Adam body & soul and breathed into him the breath of everlasting life. This is why Christ became a man - the last Adam, and bore our sins upon Himself, died and rose again.

Nor is it in the least desirable as far as I am concerned. Given that the present body is the primary source for nearly all of our sins, I have no desire to repeat that in the next life.

There is no "next" life. You only have one life. It is given for man to die once, and after this, the judgment. If you are in Christ through faith in Him when you die, your spirit remains with Him, longing in real hope for the resurrection of your body from death.

And given the biblical faults assigned to the flesh

Only righteousness will dwell. No ear has heard, nor eye seen, nor mind perceived what God has prepared for you.

I can't believe that there will be anything the least bit similar to that in heaven.

The tabernacle of God will be on earth among us forevermore. How can it not be "heaven on earth"?

My own view is that we will finally become fully complete and perfect in our spirits and no longer limited in any way by some materially composed outer shell.

No. Our spirits will never be complete without the body that God created for Adam (mankind).

 

[JBO]

We understand the meaning of a term from within the context of the passage.

Ephesians 2:1-7

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

by nature children of wrath

Paul compares and contrasts our former life walking in sin, with our current life walking with Christ. In that context, he mentions three distinct aspects of our walking in sin: we were "dead" in our trespasses and sins, we walked according to the course of this world, and we were, by nature, children of wrath. Given these three aspects, what can it mean to be "dead"? Obviously, Paul is using the term "dead" in a figurative sense. Those who are literally dead can't walk at all, let alone walk according to the course of this world. Even here we have two plausible options for what Paul might have meant: 1) Prudence, or 2) Death sentence

Death Sentence:
Dead = sentenced to death. According to the New Testament, death is the just penalty for sin. Death in the figurative sense can describe the end of something, such as a relationship, a career, or a phase of life. It can also be used to describe a feeling of emptiness or loss, such as the death of a dream or hope. Finally, it can also be used to indicate capital punishment, which is to take place at the final judgment. Ultimately, Paul says, we were by nature children of wrath.

Alive = pardoned. To be alive, in this sense is to have one's sins forgiven, to be pardoned, and to be set free from death producing activities. Those in Christ will implement a course of action consisting of "Life-giving" activities. Life-giving activities are actions that promote a sense of well-being, happiness and fulfillment: volunteering, self-care, creative pursuits, spending time in nature, and connecting with others. These are among the many life-giving activities available to those who follow Christ and live according to the course that he sets for our life. We are not only freed from the death penalty; we are free to practice beneficial and rewarding activities that promote life.

Prudence:
Dead = Ineffectual. Our evaluation of the effectiveness of a particular course of action is based on the aim or goal we have set for ourselves. As human beings, we all strive for peace, prosperity, well-being, fulfillment, and human flourishing. In order to achieve these desirable conditions, we need to implement a specific course of action. The question is, what steps or actions should we take to attain these beneficial ends? "If someone chooses to follow the ways of this world, which are controlled by the ruler of the air, they have chosen a path that is pointless, ineffective, fruitless, and futile. Those who walk according to this world are unable to achieve true peace with God, prosperity, or well-being. Their way of life is essentially dead and cannot lead to human flourishing."

Alive = effectual. If someone chooses to follow the ways of Christ, he leads that individual in the course of action that will eventually result in an effective means to gain peace with God, human flourishing, well-being, and human fulfillment.

Either Paul was talking about "prudence" or he was talking about pardon. He wasn't saying that a spirit was dead.

I can agree with some of that, but I see some weakness in it as well. In John 5:24-25 Jesus spoke of the dead hearing Jesus and the living. There Jesus is describing regeneration. I think that is more than just a figurative reference. I think dead in trespasses and sins is in some sense a separation from God. It is not a total separation, as for example a Calvinist might say, but it is a partial separation from God. If left in that state, i.e., unregenerated, the spiritually dead will end up eternally separated from God in the second death (Rev 20:6).

 

[Zao is life]

That is a very interesting study. I will spend some time with it.

However, I find it interesting that, so far as I can determine, whenever the subject is the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns, the Greek word is ἀνάστασις [anastasis}. When the subject is the bringing back to life here on earth of one who has died, the Greek word is ἔγερσις [egersis}. That is true also for Jesus' resurrection following His crucifixion (Matt 27:53). And it is true of those spoken of who came out of their tombs in Matthew 27:52.

I could be wrong, but I think that is pretty much what your study as shown as well.

anastasis and égersis are nouns referring to the reality (the happening) of rising again (anístēmi; and egeírō) from death:

"And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [ἐγείρω egeírō] arose. And coming out of the tomb after His [O ἔγερσις égersis] the resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Matthew 24:52-53

@CadyandZoe anístēmi; and egeírō = rising from death (the happening).
anastasis and égersis = the resurrection (the nouns).

@CadyandZoe My apologies I should have mentioned that in Matt24:53 the Greek definite article precedes the word égersis (as I've now edited into the above quote).

 

[JBO]

The next question defines your misunderstanding of the gospel:

Mankind was created to live on earth, in a body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven".

Revelation 21
1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, .."
10 " And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God, .."

New heavens. New EARTH.

Why do you think it was necessary for Jesus to die and rise again bodily?

View attachment 38879


Yes.

The things on earth. The things of the new creation.

Yes.

It's because you have misunderstood the gospel. God's purpose for creating Adam was not so that he would die and go to heaven when he dies. God created Adam body & soul and breathed into him the breath of everlasting life. This is why Christ became a man - the last Adam, and bore our sins upon Himself, died and rose again.

There is no "next" life. You only have one life. It is given for man to die once, and after this, the judgment. If you are in Christ through faith in Him when you die, your spirit remains with Him, longing in real hope for the resurrection of your body from death.

Only righteousness will dwell. No ear has heard, not eye seen, nor mind perceived what God has prepared for you.

The tabernacle of God will be on earth among us forevermore. How can it not be "heaven on earth"?

No. Our spirits will never be complete without the body that God created for Adam (mankind).

You are certainly not alone in any of that thinking. I have books that echo those same thoughts. All of that sounds kind of nice, but I think it is wrong. If what you say is to be our final existence, then God could have just as easily produced that at the outset. I believe that what God wanted was a people who would freely choose to love and obey him. That is the ultimate message of Romans 8:28-30. It is those who love God that are called according to His purpose, namely, to be with Him in heaven.

What exactly the New Heavens and New Earth will be, I do not know; But like everything else that speaks of the future age to come, it is figurative speech. I reject the concept that it will be in any way material or corporal. What it means to "be with Him in heaven" I really do not know or understand. But I believe that no matter how one might perceive it from the descriptions given, it will be orders of magnitude better than we can even imagine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That may be true; however, you still have no idea what a spiritual body actually is. There certainly is no indication that a spiritual body is in any sense material or corporal.

Why do you think this?

I am aware that we have inherited a set of philosophical beliefs that we collectively accept without questioning their validity. One such belief is that our physical bodies, including flesh, are inherently evil and temporary. This belief also asserts that material things are also evil. It is necessary to challenge these assumptions and put them to the test to ascertain their veracity.

To that end, I want to return to the text of 1 Corinthians 15. According to the following passage, Paul defends his belief that our resurrected body will share continuity with our former body. He draws an analogy with a seed being planted in the ground.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. ​

Just as an apple seed will result in an apple tree, a resurrected body will correspond directly to the person who died. The seed is the body as the plant is to the resurrected body. Death, burial, and resurrection are an unbroken and consistent existence. And to understand this better we can take our cues from the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who was able to show his hands and feet to Thomas as proof of his resurrection. Jesus had a corporeal, material existence after his resurrection. Yes?

 

[Zao is life]

All of that sounds kind of nice, but I think it is wrong. If what you say is to be our final existence, then God could have just as easily produced that at the outset.

You mean He should have created the Garden of Eden and walked with mankind in the Garden, but He did not?

Remember that Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden, and prevented from eating of the tree of life, and he began to die in his body, because he became separated from the life-giving Spirit (breath) of God.

What does it all mean? What is the death and resurrection of Jesus for? What is the New Heavens and New Earth?

I believe that what God wanted was a people who would freely choose to love and obey him. That is the ultimate message of Romans 8:28-30. It is those who love God that are called according to His purpose, namely, to be with Him in heaven.

You mean man can earn his own righteousness and thereby gain eternal life and earn himself to heaven/paradise, because that's the ultimate meaning of what you are saying above, IMO.

What exactly the New Heavens and New Earth will be, I do not know; But like everything else that speaks of the future age to come, it is figurative speech.

I agree, but we will continue to disagree on what you say below, and it's Christmas so I WILL be careful not to provoke you into becoming angry with "the way" I put things sometimes:

I reject the concept that it will be in any way material or corporal. What it means to "be with Him in heaven" I really do not know or understand.

This we agree about though:

But I believe that no matter how one might perceive it from the descriptions given, it will be orders of magnitude better than we can even imagine.

Merry Christmas

 

[JBO]

anastasis and égersis are nouns referring to the reality (the happening) of rising again (anístēmi; and egeírō) from death:

"And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [ἐγείρω egeírō] arose. And coming out of the tomb after His [O ἔγερσις égersis] the resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Matthew 24:52-53

@CadyandZoe anístēmi; and egeírō = rising from death (the happening).
anastasis and égersis = the resurrection (the nouns).

@CadyandZoe My apologies I should have mentioned that in Matt24:53 the Greek definite article precedes the word égersis (as I've now edited into the above quote).

If you are saying that the Greek words anistemi and egeiro are used interchangeably, I do not agree. It is not Jesus' "egeiro" that makes him the first born from the dead (Col 1:18); rather it is His "anistemi". I think that occurred not, when He rose from the grave, but rather when He ascended into heaven.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can agree with some of that, but I see some weakness in it as well. In John 5:24-25 Jesus spoke of the dead hearing Jesus and the living. There Jesus is describing regeneration. I think that is more than just a figurative reference. I think dead in trespasses and sins is in some sense a separation from God. It is not a total separation, as for example a Calvinist might say, but it is a partial separation from God. If left in that state, i.e., unregenerated, the spiritually dead will end up eternally separated from God in the second death (Rev 20:6).

Isn't Jesus talking about those who are physically dead, i.e. in the tombs, hearing his voice? Isn't this what happened to Lazarus?

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you are saying that the Greek words anistemi and egeiro are used interchangeably, I do not agree. It is not Jesus' "egeiro" that makes him the first born from the dead (Col 1:18); rather it is His "anistemi". I think that occurred not, when He rose from the grave, but rather when He ascended into heaven.

Just for clarity, why can't they both be true?

 

[JBO]

Why do you think this?

I am aware that we have inherited a set of philosophical beliefs that we collectively accept without questioning their validity. One such belief is that our physical bodies, including flesh, are inherently evil and temporary. This belief also asserts that material things are also evil. It is necessary to challenge these assumptions and put them to the test to ascertain their veracity.

I do not believe our physical bodies, including flesh are inherently evil; that is a bit too gnostic. I do believe it is temporary as the entire physical creation is and was meant to be.

 

[JBO]

Just for clarity, why can't they both be true?

Because they aren't?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is a very interesting study. I will spend some time with it.

However, I find it interesting that, so far as I can determine, whenever the subject is the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns, the Greek word is ἀνάστασις [anastasis}. When the subject is the bringing back to life here on earth of one who has died, the Greek word is ἔγερσις [egersis}. That is true also for Jesus' resurrection following His crucifixion (Matt 27:53). And it is true of those spoken of who came out of their tombs in Matthew 27:52.

I could be wrong, but I think that is pretty much what your study as shown as well.

Interesting observation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I do not believe our physical bodies, including flesh are inherently evil; that is a bit too gnostic. I do believe it is temporary as the entire physical creation is and was meant to be.

"I agree with you. However, doesn't Paul talk about the creation in Romans 8? In some sense, he says that the creation was created in futility. But, doesn't he also say that it will be redeemed with those whom the Spirit has given life to their mortal bodies?"

 

[JBO]

Isn't Jesus talking about those who are physically dead, i.e. in the tombs, hearing his voice? Isn't this what happened to Lazarus?

NO! NO! NO! Those in verses 28-29 are indeed the physically dead to come out of the tombs at the end of the age when Christ returns for the resurrection, the "anastasis" and judgment. For those in verse 24-25, the hour is coming AND NOW IS.

 

[JBO]

"I agree with you. However, doesn't Paul talk about the creation in Romans 8? In some sense, he says that the creation was created in futility. But, doesn't he also say that it will be redeemed with those whom the Spirit has given life to their mortal bodies?"

Not our mortal bodies. Bodies, not flesh. "Somah" not "sarx".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because they aren't?

No, I know. I'm sorry about that. I'm working out the distinction as it pertains to Jesus. I'm wondering what conclusions we can draw from the different connotations, especially with regard to John's concept of a "first resurrection." I don't think John is suggesting that Jesus was the first to be "awakened" to the gospel message. Or maybe he is?

He certainly wasn't the first to be awakened from death or the first to rise up out of a tomb. But he WAS the first to ascend up to heaven.

Yes?

 

[Zao is life]

If you are saying that the Greek words anistemi and egeiro are used interchangeably, I do not agree. It is not Jesus' "egeiro" that makes him the first born from the dead (Col 1:18); rather it is His "anistemi". I think that occurred not, when He rose from the grave, but rather when He ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man has ascended [anabaínō] up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 1:9-10 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [epaírō]; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up [poreúomai], behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.

anabaínō is also found in John 2:17: Jesus says unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended [anabaínō] to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Same word in Acts 2:34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,

Same in Acts 25:1 Now when Festus was come into the province, after three days he ascended from Caesarea to Jerusalem

and in Ephesians 4:8-10: Wherefore he says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Same in Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Same for when the two witnesses ascended to heaven in Rev 11:12

Same for when Jesus came up out of the water at His baptism (Matthew 3:16); and when He ascended up the mountain to get away from the crowds (Matthew 5:1).

All using the word anabaínō,

I can carry on looking, but so far I have not found a verse where anístēmi is referring to the ascension of Jesus into heaven.

@CadyandZoe
@JBO
On the other hand, there are quite a few verses where the word anistemi is found that are referring neither to resurrection from death nor to an ascension into heaven, for example:

Matthew 9:9: And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he says unto him, Follow me. And he arose [anistemi], and followed him.

There are quite a few verses where it refers neither to ascension into heaven nor to resurrection from death - but wherever anistemi is used in reference to resurrection from death, it's talking about the resurrection of the body.