They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[PinSeeker]

So your whole point is that our will is not the same as God's and never can be, so no one will be redeemed?

Well, that's assuredly not my point, but I will say that in our natural condition, with regard to our salvation/redemption, this is true. Fortunately, though, God has this thing called mercy and compassion on those whom He chooses to do so (His elect), and thus does not leave them in that natural condition. This is Paul speaking in Romans 9:14-18, regarding God's elect:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." ​

See, Timtofly, you're saying ~ this is at least one of your points ~ that it depends on our choice, on our will, that God's will depends on our will, which is in direct conflict and opposition to what Paul is clearly saying here.

And, writing to the Christians in Ephesus (Ephesians 2:4-10), Paul says the same thing, but (in my opinion) is even clearer:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

We (God's elect) are redeemed, but by His grace, because of His mercy and compassion that He has bestowed on us. As John says:

"We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).​

You don't make sense...

To you, at least right now, because... Well, I'll gracefully not go any further with that.

So how is changing our mind to accept Salvation forcing God to do anything, since Salvation is God's will?

Well, you're saying that His choice depends on our choice, and that once we make that choice correctly, He then has no choice but to execute save us, that's how. In effect, you're taking away His free will. Plus, again without really meaning to, you're saying, inevitably, that God's grace is not really grace ~ grace is unmerited favor ~ at all. You're making, again, I think without really meaning to, faith out to be a work of man. All of which is directly addressed and refuted in Scripture, specifically by Paul:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:16,18)
• "...by grace you have been saved through faith... this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..." Ephesians 2:8-9)
• "...there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:5-6)

I mean, Timtofly, these are the words of Scripture verbatim. If you want to continue stating (and believing the opposite), then so be it, but I would implore you not to do so.

Now God already states that all are already condemned who never change their minds. They are not forcing God to condemned them. They were already condemned because of Adam. Adam was the one who disobeyed and forced God to be the Lamb of redemption. Not any of Adam's descendants are responsible for God's condemnation nor are they forcing God to do anything. No one is forcing God to redeem them. No one is forcing God not to redeem them.

See above.

Your whole argument is based on the erroneous premise: free will somehow dictates what God does.

Again, it may not be your intention, but that is your position; it is the effect of your position, and it is very much erroneous. See above.

God was not willing that any should perish, so He elected of His own free will to be the only Lamb of redemption for all.

In one sense, that's true, but in another, it is not. Christ's sacrifice was for all in the sense that it was sufficient to save all, so in that sense, His atonement is unlimited. So God's mercy/compassion could have been given to all, and thus all would be redeemed. But again, God ~ of His own free will... ~ elected... ~ not to give it to all, but only to His elect. Yet again, He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills; these are not my words originally but those of God Himself. So, Timtofly, Jesus's atonement was not and will not ever be effectual for all, but only God's elect, so, in this sense, His atonement is limited and thus not for all, but only for those whom God intended/intends, those whom He has purposed to do so. Again, as the prophet Joel says ~ and Paul and John both directly reference in their words, our choice ~ which, yes, all make, either one way or the other, each of his/her own free will and accord ~ depends on God's call... or lack thereof.

See, Timtofly, it's not a matter of the will, or whether it is free or not. It's a matter of the heart, and whether it's left in its natural condition or not. Hey, I'll ask you, did you have a say in whether you were born or not? Did you say to your mother and/or father ~ before you were born or even conceived... ~ "Hey, guys, I would like to be born. I choose for you to conceive me and give birth to me." Well no, of course not, right? So it is with God, with His Holy Spirit... As John says, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

...God can repent...

Of what? Of sin? Surely you don't mean that... Does Scripture not say that God is perfect, without sin, even incapable of sin?

...no one is coercing God to do anything.

Agreed, but that is your unintended implication.

His sovereignty is still intact.

I'm glad you understand that to be true. But, unintentionally, then, you refute yourself with your own words. See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, you're saying that His choice depends on our choice

No, I am not.

That is you misunderstanding my whole point.

You are wrongly applying the freedom to choose salvation with God's natural choice in Romans 9 given to all the descendants of Jacob. A natural branch has no choice. They can only be blotted out by God.

Salvation does not take into consideration, now since the Cross, if one is of Israel or of Gentile. That is the mystery in the mindset of being a natural branch. I am not sure why it should be a mystery for those of the second birth.

God choosing whom He will or will not save only applied prior to the Cross. No one accepted Jesus and His death in the OT. They were under the OT Covenant, where God's grace and mercy carried a lot more weight.

That distinction stopped at the Cross, and blindness in part placed on Israel. There were no longer any natural branches.

That is my point. If you apply Romans 9 to now, all would be wild branches and never have salvation.

Ephesians 2 does not make your point either. All since Adam have been redeemed by the Cross, not because God put the Cross to the side and acted differently for some people and not others. This chapter never states whose choice it is for individual salvation. Paul is talking about what Jesus accomplished on the Cross, not God's will on who is saved or who is not.

The second birth is not automatic since the Cross. It was only available for Israel by natural physical, but it was not called the second birth, or Nicodemus would not have been confused by Jesus' words, ye must be born again. They only had to be physically born without a choice and their salvation was guaranteed as long as they did their works keeping up with the Law.

Salvation is not of works on our part. It is 100% all of God doing the saving.

I am not implying anything. You are twisting the point of free will, to imply a strawman fallacy. Free will is the ability to make a choice without any coercion either for nor against that choice. Free will does not force God to save us against His will. You are the one defining a point that God willed some humans to never be redeemed.

Which in our current state of just being born, is the default will of God that all pay for their death state in eternal punishment. God has to punish all, because all have condemned themselves. John 3:18

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

One is already condemned by birth not even having the knowledge to believe. Romans 10 clears up your confusion of Romans 9.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

So Paul states whosoever calls, not just those God wills, are able to be saved.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, I am not.

Well, you are...

That is you misunderstanding my whole point.

Seems to me you're not able to understand your own point ~ or refusing to accept its implications.

You are wrongly applying the freedom to choose salvation...

I'm not applying it at all. There is absolutely nothing in Romans 9 about our freedom to choose anything... or lack thereof. Paul, in Romans 9:16 particularly, doesn't deny that anyone can or does or does not make a choice, but only talks about the criteria for being one of God's elect, what it depends on. He says: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." So 'it,' meaning being included in God's elect, depends only on God, who has mercy (or not, as he gives this mercy to whom He chooses and calls).

with God's natural choice in Romans 9 given to all the descendants of Jacob.

Ah, okay, so who are the actual decendents of Jacob, Timtofly? Keep in mind what Paul has said in Romans 2 about who Israel really is, who makes up God's true Israel: "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." And In Romans 9, which you say is about only ethnic Jews, "not all who are descended from Israel (Jacob) belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." And in Romans 11, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

A natural branch has no choice. They can only be blotted out by God. Salvation does not take into consideration, now since the Cross, if one is of Israel or of Gentile. That is the mystery in the mindset of being a natural branch. I am not sure why it should be a mystery for those of the second birth. God choosing whom He will or will not save only applied prior to the Cross.

That's very much antithetical to what Paul says in Romans 9-11, and what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 11. We are all saved the same way, by faith, which is given to us by God, not manufactured by us, which would make it faith out to be a work of man and grace not to be grace at all.

No one accepted Jesus and His death in the OT.

They did. If you can't see Jesus many, many, many times throughout the Old Testament, you're not seeing Scripture for what it is. And Jesus said the entire Old Testament was about Him.

They were under the OT Covenant, where God's grace and mercy carried a lot more weight.

God's grace and mercy were always what they were and always will be. The only difference between the Israelites of old and us is that they were looking forward to Jesus's coming ~ first alluded to in Genesis 3:15 ~ and we are looking back to Him (and forward to His second coming, of course). The difference for them is that it is all filled with "object lessons," so to speak ~ Jesus is, for example, the lamb without blemish referred to over and over again in the Pentateuch. As the writer of Hebrews says ~ and I love this passage, it is part of my signature below ~ "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."

That distinction stopped at the Cross, and blindness in part placed on Israel. There were no longer any natural branches. That is my point. If you apply Romans 9 to now, all would be wild branches and never have salvation.

Such misunderstanding. This is a personal letter to the church in Rome ~ consisting of all Gentiles. Why would he go to such great lengths to tell them about something that doesn't even apply to them?

Ephesians 2 does not make your point either.

It does. It is by grace, not by works, so that no one may boast." You inadvertently make faith out to be man's gift to God rather than God's gift to His elect... and even make our choice out to be a work meriting salvation. Which is not the case. Yes, it does make my point.

All since Adam have been redeemed by the Cross...

Strange that you would say that, considering what you have said here to this point, but sure, I agree. Well, not all, as in "every single human being since Adam," surely you aren't saying that...

, not because God put the Cross to the side and acted differently for some people and not others.

Not even sure what this means...

This chapter never states whose choice it is for individual salvation.

But it is crystal clear in saying that individual salvation depends on God's mercy, not on man's willing/choice.

Paul is talking about what Jesus accomplished on the Cross, not God's will on who is saved or who is not.

Paul finishes saying what Jesus accomplished on the cross in Romans 8. Beginning in Romans 9 and going through Romans 11, he's explaining who what Christ accomplished on the Cross is applied to, and the greatness of God in doing it.

The second birth is not automatic since the Cross.

Who ever said such a thing? Certainly not I... Although, it is an absolute surety for those who are members of God's elect...

It was only available for Israel by natural physical, but it was not called the second birth, or Nicodemus would not have been confused by Jesus' words,

You misunderstand. You know, Jesus does say there to Nicodemus that unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. There is no beginning point put on this by the Lord. It was always true, from the time that Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, and always will be, until Jesus returns.

...their salvation was guaranteed as long as they did their works keeping up with the Law.

Well, yes, they could have saved themselves ~ and we could too, actually ~ if they/we could keep the Mosaic Law perfectly, but of course no one kept or can keep the law perfectly or even possibly could ~ except Jesus, of course, which is what qualifies Him as our Savior. Again, the only difference between the Israelites of old and us is that they were looking forward to Jesus's coming ~ first alluded to in Genesis 3:15 ~ and we are looking back to Him (and forward to His second coming

Salvation is not of works on our part. It is 100% all of God doing the saving.

Absolutely. I wish you really believed that.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued...

I am not implying anything.

You are, without realizing it.

You are twisting the point of free will...

There is no point of free will to be made, Timtofly. We have it, for sure, but it has nothing to do with this. Any man's inclusion in God's elect depends not on his willing but on God's.

Free will is the ability to make a choice without any coercion either for nor against that choice.

Really, there is "coercion" with any choice we make, Timtofly. Every effect has its cause. For any decision a person makes, there is a reason for his making ~ or not making ~ that choice. Now, "coercion" is a silly way to put it, but by that token, you might as well say we are coerced in one way or another into every single choice we make by one thing or another.

Free will does not force God to save us against His will.

I didn't say that, Timtofly. But again, what you are saying, taken as it is, gives God no choice but to save us. And it flies directly in the face of what Paul says in Ephesians 1, that "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him... In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved."

You are the one defining a point that God willed some humans to never be redeemed.

Actually, everyone has condemned himself, in Adam, as the father of the human race, so they can never be redeemed, unless there is such a thing called grace. God chose some to be redeemed, to be conformed to the image of His Son. As Paul says, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Romans 10 clears up your confusion of Romans 9.

LOL! By refuting it? Does Paul refute himself from one chapter to the next? LOL!

Paul states whosoever calls, not just those God wills, are able to be saved.

I'll say this again. Paul says (and I quote):

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' ” ​

No distinction between Jew and Greek... we can agree that needs no explanation. But notice, Timtofly, that Paul puts "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" in quotes. He's quoting from somewhere else in Scripture (which he does a lot). So, where is he quoting from? Because it is necessary to understand not just his immediate context but also the context of the passage he is directly referring to. As I said, he's quoting Joel 2:32 there, where Joel says:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." ​

It should be very easy to see, there, Timtofly, that only those who are first called by the Lord are the ones who will call on the name of the LORD, which is to say exactly as Paul says in Romans 9:16, "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy..." 'it' ~ meaning being included in God's elect in Paul's context in Romans 9 ~ depends only on God, Who has mercy (or not, as He gives this mercy to whom He chooses and calls).

I know you don't mean to be, but you're arguing against all of Scripture, Old Testament and New.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Who ever said such a thing? Certainly not I... Although, it is an absolute surety for those who are members of God's elect...

If it is absolute surety, you are the one saying that the second birth and election is automatic for a select few.

I don't think you will ever understand my point, as all you keep doing is telling me what I think. You don't understand my points, so obviously you have not taken the time to understand my thoughts, nor what I have been posting.

The entire body of Adam's descendants is covered by the sacrifice of the Lamb.

The entire body of Adam's descendants are automatically condemned to death, just by being physically born.

That is the only absolute surety. Until we agree on those points, you will just keep replying that your opinion is all I have been posting.

 

[PinSeeker]

If it is absolute surety, you are the one saying that the second birth and election is automatic for a select few.

"Automatic"... what do you even mean by that, Timtofly? The truth is, if God has purposed it, it will come to be. "God can do all things, and His purposes cannot be thwarted" ~ these are originally Job's words, not mine, in Job 42:2. As Paul says in Romans 11:29, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable..." And rather than "a select few," as you put it, it is an innumerable multitude ~ "as the stars of heaven," "as the grains of sand on the seashore," as it is put in various places in Genesis. But yes, not all of humankind; a subset of the whole of humankind.

I don't think you will ever understand my point...

I understand your implication ~ where your "point" necessarily leads ~ very well. You either deny it or don't realize you're making it.

...as all you keep doing is telling me what I think.

I absolutely do not. I don't put words in people's mouths. You just don't appreciate being told where your line of thinking necessarily leads or ends up (for one reason or the other; see above), and I completely understand that, but it is what it is.

You don't understand my points, so obviously you have not taken the time to understand my thoughts, nor what I have been posting.

I understand them better than you yourself do... or, again, you're just in denial. I understand. Your argument is really not with me, to be quite honest.

The entire body of Adam's descendants is covered by the sacrifice of the Lamb.

In one sense (sufficiency for all) that's true, as I have said several times, but in another (efficacy to individuals) not so much. His atonement is unlimited in the former sense, but limited ~ specific ~ in the latter.

The entire body of Adam's descendants are automatically condemned to death, just by being physically born.

Again with the "automatic" thing. Depending on what you really mean by "automatically," I agree. All men are born with the same sinful nature ~ the same death of spirit in sin ~ that Adam and Eve (the mother of all the living) fell into when they partook of the forbidden fruit, so, yet again, the real issue is still, Timtofly, really, who (or Who) can overcome that "automatic" condition, who (or again, Who) and what it initially depends on.

This exchange boils down to pretty much the same as what we read in Matthew 19:25-26, Mark 10:26-27, and Luke 18:26-27, where the disciples ask Jesus, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus's response, as you must well know, is:

“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” ​

Why not John's gospel? Well, John records, in John 15:16, this quote of Jesus's, again in a conversation with His disciples:

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide."​

This should sound very familiar to you, because it's exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10, that "by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

And after saying He was the one who chose us, Timtofly, and not us choosing Him, He then says:

"These things I command you, so that you will love one another."​

And as I have pointed out several times before, John says, in 1 John 4:19, "We love because He first loved us." This love that John is talking about ~ and love in general, really ~ is much more than a warm fuzzy feeling, Timtofly. It is a choosing. So yes, we choose Him because He first chose us.

Ezekiel gives us this picture of salvation, quoting God Himself saying the following:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules."​

There is nothing in there about the recipients of grace beyond their merely being the recipients of God's grace, much less the making of any choice. "I," "I," "I," "I," "I..." It is all God's doing; salvation is of the Lord. This is not to say that we don't or even can't make a choice, but regarding salvation, our choice is within the context of God's choice. If God has chosen us in this sovereign, distinguishing way ~ we call this particular grace, because it is particularly given only to His elect ~ we will not fail ~ because it is appointed by God (see Acts 13:48... "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed") ~ to choose Him... and freely so.

....you will just keep replying that your opinion is all I have been posting.

Sure, I'll accept that, but even then, the question is what my opinion is based on. Which goes both ways here, so hey, right back atcha, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

; a subset of the whole of humankind.

If it is a subset, that is you declaring who will automatically get saved.

Automatically means those saved, have no choice whatsoever. This subset will be saved regardless. The rest will be lost regardless.

 

[PinSeeker]

If it is a subset, that is you declaring who will automatically get saved.

Nonsense. That's me declaring that God's elect does not include all people, only the ones God has (or will) have mercy/compassion upon; both Moses and Paul quote God as saying, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And yes, this is according to His will; it is His purpose of election. No one can possibly "declare" who will be saved... except God Himself.

Automatically means those saved, have no choice whatsoever.

Sure, in your way of thinking, I guess, but that's just nonsense.

This subset will be saved regardless. The rest will be lost regardless.

Hmmm... well, God made folks how He made them. Paul anticipated your objection, you know. Yes, who are you, Timtofly, to answer back to God? In his words (in Romans 9 again):

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have You made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"​

Like I said, I understand why it is hard for many to accept, but still... it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure, in your way of thinking, I guess, but that's just nonsense.

So now you are saying those are the only ones who can choose salvation?

You are the one saying it is automatic. No one has a choice in your paradigm. Only the elect choosing is redundant. You said only God chooses.

 

[PinSeeker]

So now you are saying those are the only ones who can choose salvation?

No. Only the ones who are called (by God), will choose Him. Even then, they still can choose either way, but will not fail to choose Him, because they will then, of their own free will and accord, be wholly inclined not to choose... the other "way." It's not a matter of the will, Timtofly. It's a matter of the heart; one's heart drives his/her will, at any and all times. So, with that in mind, I would invite you to read Ezekiel 36:26-29 again. There, God says (through Ezekiel):

"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses."​

You are the one saying it is automatic.

Nothing is "automatic." Even by your definition of 'automatic...' <chuckle>

No one has a choice in your paradigm.

That may be your opinion of my "paradigm," sure, but not so.

Only the elect choosing is redundant.

That's your opinion also. Everything has a cause and effect.

You said only God chooses.

No, I did not say that; I even refuted it several times.

Grace and peace to you.