They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Hobie]

Rev 20 speaks of only one physical resurrection of the dead! John writes the DEAD shall be bodily resurrected to stand before God at the GWT to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Since the names of the DEAD shall not be written in the book of life, the DEAD shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

John also writes of the "first resurrection" that mankind before physical death must have part in to overcome the lake of fire that is the second death. The first resurrection is not mankind being bodily resurrected from the graves. That shall not happen until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds (Jo 5:28-29; 1Cor 15:51-54). The first resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ that man must have part in before they physically die to overcome the second death. We partake of the resurrection life of Christ when we are spiritually made alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. No man is the first resurrection from the dead to never die again, Christ is! It is when we are made spiritually alive in Him that man has part in the first resurrection.


Paul writes in 1Th 4:13-18 that those who have physically died in Christ, IOW those who before physical death had partaken of Christ "the first resurrection", return with Christ at His coming again. Their mortal bodies will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible from the graves when the Lord returns to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then faithful saints who are still alive at His coming again shall be caught up together with them also bodily changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible.

Then shall come the end for this first earth when God sends down fire from heaven to utterly burn up everything left alive on the earth. And there will be a new heaven and new earth, the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:4 (KJV) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



John is describing the one and only bodily resurrection of the DEAD that shall be in an hour that is coming. All that are in the graves shall be bodily resurrected then, but John here writes only of what shall be of the DEAD that had no part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. It is the DEAD, not the living that must stand before the throne of God. Yes, indeed, it shall be all who died in unbelief, NOT the faithful that had physically died. Those who had part in the first resurrection lived and reigned during their lifetimes with Christ, who is the first resurrection. Since in life they had been born again, made spiritually alive through Christ, they have no fear of the second death. Even though the faithful saints shall be called before the judgement seat of Christ (Ro. 14:10), it is only the DEAD that must give account before God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. The saints of Christ shall be with Him, at His right hand (Acts 7:55-56; Mt 25:33), already clothed with immortality & incorruptible.

Anyone who has not or shall not live and reign with Christ before they physically die during this time symbolized a thousand years will be counted among the DEAD and be judged before God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. They are in life the walking DEAD, and without Christ, also without hope of life everlasting.



Do you believe that Christ did not speak truth to us when He says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"??? You must, since you think the eternal/never ending life Christ gives us through His Spirit in us dies when our flesh breathes its last! We HAVE eternal life now through His Spirit in us the moment we are born again! Paul writes we WERE DEAD IN SINS, he does not write we ARE dead in sins. Why? Because we have been quickened (made spiritually alive) together with Christ having part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection of Christ. We HAVE eternal spiritual life NOW, the moment we are born again of His Spirit, that shall NEVER DIE! Believers are NOW spiritually seated together with Christ in heavenly (celestial, above the sky), not of this earth but of heaven. Believers reside there spiritually alive forever through His Spirit in us.

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So which one was Jesus describing here...
Luke 14:13-15
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

Its not the wicked....

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, it will come to an end and so will sinners...

Their time on earth will end, yes. They will not cease to exist, though... neither the ones who enter into the New Heaven and New Earth and will no longer sin (us) nor the ones who remain sinners and depart to judgment, this place of "outer darkness," where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and "their worm will not die."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

The words "of the body" and "in the body" do not appear in the English text, but are inherent in the meaning of the Greek words in the Greek text that it's translated from.

Do you believe that Christ did not speak the truth to us when He said, "He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [záō]. And whoever lives in the body [záō] AND believes in Me shall never die"

​

John 11:21-27

"Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now, whatever You will ask of God, God will give You.

-- Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again, bodily [anístēmi]. Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again [anístēmi] in the resurrection of the body [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection of the body [anástasis] and the (eternal) life [zōḗ]!

He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [záō]. And whoever lives in the body [záō] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? --

She said to Him, Yes, Lord, I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who has come into the world."
​

Clearly you do not believe what Jesus actually said, but instead of what Jesus actually said you believe what you have changed Jesus' actual words to mean.

Of course it is during our physical lives that man must believe in/on Christ to have eternal life that shall never die. Do you think Christ didn't know the body of Lazarus was physically dead? Of course He knew that! But Christ IS the RESURRECTION and the life that whosoever lives and believes in Him would live forever. Yet Lazarus who lived and believed in Christ physically died, but since the life he possessed through faith in Christ is never ending, the physical body of Lazarus is not the part of Lazarus that would never die. Christ is telling Martha that even though the body of her brother lay dead, and, in the tomb, Lazarus would return to physical life again that He might prove that in Him physical life is not the end for the faithful, because He has power over death. Though we all are destined to physically die, we do not cease to be living souls, a spiritual body of believers in heaven even without a body of flesh our spirit is alive forevermore.

But being a Premillennialist, you don't believe Christ when He tells us in Him death has been defeated for all who live and believe in Him HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER die! You have wrongly determined that unless we have a resurrected body of flesh & bone, we have not life, why? Because you don't believe the words Christ speaks to whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, because the life we have through Him, through His Spirit within is forever.

 

[rwb]

So which one was Jesus describing here...
Luke 14:13-15
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

Its not the wicked....

The just and the wicked, or as John writes those who have done good and those who have done bad, shall be physically resurrected in an hour that is coming, that Paul writes shall be when the last trumpet sounds, and John writes that will be when time shall be no longer.

There will not be two physical resurrections from the graves, one for the just and the other for the unjust. There shall be but one physical resurrection for ALL who are in the graves. In the hour that is coming all the dead in the graves shall be resurrected to life or damnation depending on whether in life they have done good or evil. Those who have done good shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible and those who have done bad resurrected to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life, then the bad shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death because their names will not be found in the book of life.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The passages from Scripture above prove there is but one bodily resurrection of all who have physically died when Christ comes again. That's when faithful saints shall be physically changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible, and there shall be no more time given this earth for building the Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel.

 

[Hobie]

Their time on earth will end, yes. They will not cease to exist, though... neither the ones who enter into the New Heaven and New Earth and will no longer sin (us) nor the ones who remain sinners and depart to judgment, this place of "outer darkness," where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and "their worm will not die."

Grace and peace to you.

Do you think the wicked get life eternal, no they perish in the lake of fire and as the devil, are no more.....ashes are the burnt remains as everyone knows..

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you think the wicked get life eternal...

Ah, so you do buy into annihilation...

To answer your question, no, but you're applying life and death in the eternal realm in the same manner/sense as in the temporal realm, and such cannot Biblically be done. The wicked exist in eternity, but not in the presence of the One Who is life ~ Jesus, of course. This is the second death.

...they perish in the lake of fire and as the devil, are no more...

I agree, but "no more," Hobie, with regard to the New Heaven and New Earth. They will not be here, with us, with Jesus, in eternity, so in that sense no more. It is not "no more" with regard to mere existence. God annihilates nothing. The devil, as we read in Revelation 20:10, is "tormented day and night forever and ever" in this "lake of fire" ~ which is not literally a lake of flames; what we should understand is that in this "lake of fire," they are completely immersed in God's judgment... Again, our God is a consuming fire. The wicked follow the devil to this same place as a result of this judgment being issued once and for all by Jesus in the final Judgment. They likewise depart to this place where God's grace is totally and absolutely removed. They enter into ~ and are completely immersed in ~ God's fiery judgment, and thus are likewise tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, no one ~ much less God ~ actively torments them; God is not a tormenter, of course. But being in that place ~ of "outer darkness," of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and therefore "in anguish" ~ is an unquenchable, never-ending torment to them (as we see regarding the rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16:23). This is "their worm that will not die." This is their eternal punishment, and it is true, final death, from which there is no return. It is absolutely terrifying.

..ashes are the burnt remains as everyone knows..

<nervous chuckles> See above.

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

 

[Hobie]

Ah, so you do buy into annihilation...

To answer your question, no, but you're applying life and death in the eternal realm in the same manner/sense as in the temporal realm, and such cannot Biblically be done. The wicked exist in eternity, but not in the presence of the One Who is life ~ Jesus, of course. This is the second death.


I agree, but "no more," Hobie, with regard to the New Heaven and New Earth. They will not be here, with us, with Jesus, in eternity, so in that sense no more. It is not "no more" with regard to mere existence. God annihilates nothing. The devil, as we read in Revelation 20:10, is "tormented day and night forever and ever" in this "lake of fire" ~ which is not literally a lake of flames; what we should understand is that in this "lake of fire," they are completely immersed in God's judgment... Again, our God is a consuming fire. The wicked follow the devil to this same place as a result of this judgment being issued once and for all by Jesus in the final Judgment. They likewise depart to this place where God's grace is totally and absolutely removed. They enter into ~ and are completely immersed in ~ God's fiery judgment, and thus are likewise tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, no one ~ much less God ~ actively torments them; God is not a tormenter, of course. But being in that place ~ of "outer darkness," of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and therefore "in anguish" ~ is an unquenchable, never-ending torment to them (as we see regarding the rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16:23). This is "their worm that will not die." This is their eternal punishment, and it is true, final death, from which there is no return. It is absolutely terrifying.


<nervous chuckles> See above.

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

God's Word says all sin will cease along with sinners and its originator..

 

[PinSeeker]

God's Word says all sin will cease along with sinners and its originator..

Yes, there will be no more sin and no more sinners in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sure, absolutely. The wicked will be... elsewhere, having been sent away by Jesus, and in that place, they will be in anguish day and night forever.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

Yes, there will be no more sin and no more sinners in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sure, absolutely. The wicked will be... elsewhere, having been sent away by Jesus, and in that place, they will be in anguish day and night forever.

Grace and peace to you.

So they get eternal life, no my brother, they end their existence, and sin and sinners are gone...

 

[PinSeeker]

So they get eternal life...

No, they get eternal death, which, Hobie, is somewhat analogous to what we know in this life as life imprisonment ~ away from the truly living; they are not among those who have eternal life. The second death, like eternal life, is a state of being.

...they end their existence, and sin and sinners are gone...

From the New Heaven and New Earth, yes, and far away from the presence of He Who is Life... in a place under God's absolute, final judgment, and totally devoid of His grace. Where there is no hope of redemption from their state of ruin. See above. Their eternal punishment is not momentary, but eternal ~ their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48) ~ this is the torment they experience day and night forever.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

No, they get eternal death, which, Hobie, is somewhat analogous to what we know in this life as life imprisonment ~ away from the truly living; they are not among those who have eternal life. The second death, like eternal life, is a state of being.


From the New Heaven and New Earth, yes, and far away from the presence of He Who is Life... in a place under God's absolute, final judgment, and totally devoid of His grace. Where there is no hope of redemption from their state of ruin. See above. Their eternal punishment is not momentary, but eternal ~ their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48) ~ this is the torment they experience day and night forever.

Grace and peace to you.

And they live forever, see why that doesn't work. It a choice between Christ and His gift of eternal life or perish. It's laid out straightforward...

 

[PinSeeker]

And they live forever...

In a certain sense, but this existence is not life. As Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

...see why that doesn't work.

It's what the Bible says.

It a choice between Christ and His gift of eternal life or perish. It's laid out straightforward...

I agree on the straightforwardness.

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

 

[Hobie]

In a certain sense, but this existence is not life. As Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."


It's what the Bible says.


I agree on the straightforwardness.

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

God ďoes not promise eternal life to the wicked, they perish..

 

[PinSeeker]

God ďoes not promise eternal life to the wicked...

No, and He doesn't promise ~ perish the thought ~ to annihilate them, either.

...they perish..

Agreed, but eternal punishment (the second death) is a far different thing than temporal death (the first death). They do cease to be here, but they do not cease to be. God originally created all of His creation very good, and there is nothing in the Bible that ever intimates annihilation of any part of it. God, of course, is not a murderer. The wicked are not killed by Jesus, but sent away as a result of the final Judgment into a place of outer darkness, of weeping and gnashing of teeth, which may sound relatively mild, but is most assuredly not. They are then without hope and in utter despair throughout eternity, and in this way are destroyed. This is the second death. As I said, it's terrifying.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

No, and He doesn't promise ~ perish the thought ~ to annihilate them, either.


Agreed, but eternal punishment (the second death) is a far different thing than temporal death (the first death). They do cease to be here, but they do not cease to be. God originally created all of His creation very good, and there is nothing in the Bible that ever intimates annihilation of any part of it. God, of course, is not a murderer. The wicked are not killed by Jesus, but sent away as a result of the final Judgment into a place of outer darkness, of weeping and gnashing of teeth, which may sound relatively mild, but is most assuredly not. They are then without hope and in utter despair throughout eternity, and in this way are destroyed. This is the second death. As I said, it's terrifying.

Grace and peace to you.

He gives them two choices, repent and accept Christ or be punished with the Second Death, which is to perish as they will be consumed and cease to exists in the Lake of Fire.

 

[PinSeeker]

He gives them two choices, repent and accept Christ or be punished with the Second Death, which is to perish as they will be consumed...

Agreed, but we disagree on what this perishing/consuming, the second death, is. It is far, far worse than you understand it to be.

...and cease to exist...

Disagree. God never says anything about anything ceasing to exist. Having been resurrected to eternal judgment (John 5:29), Jesus sends the wicked away, and they obediently depart from the New Heaven and New Earth (Mark 7:23; 25:46). They will join the devil and the beast and the false prophet lake of fire and sulfur, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:10). To think that Satan would exist forever, but not the wicked who merely followed him, never repenting or believing him.... No. There is no annihilation.

...in the Lake of Fire.

And it seems we disagree on what this lake of fire of Revelation 19 and 20 (the only places in God's Word where we find any direct reference to the lake of fire) is also. Again, the wicked go away to a place where they are totally immersed under God's permanent judgment, having been rendered finally and permanently by Jesus in the final Judgment. In this way, they are consumed; God Himself is the consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24; 9:3; Hebrews 12:29). This is their eternal punishment; it is not a "fleeting" or "momentary" punishment.

We can leave it at that if you like. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

Agreed, but we disagree on what this perishing/consuming, the second death, is. It is far, far worse than you understand it to be.


Disagree. God never says anything about anything ceasing to exist. Having been resurrected to eternal judgment (John 5:29), Jesus sends the wicked away, and they obediently depart from the New Heaven and New Earth (Mark 7:23; 25:46). They will join the devil and the beast and the false prophet lake of fire and sulfur, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:10). To think that Satan would exist forever, but not the wicked who merely followed him, never repenting or believing him.... No. There is no annihilation.


And it seems we disagree on what this lake of fire of Revelation 19 and 20 (the only places in God's Word where we find any direct reference to the lake of fire) is also. Again, the wicked go away to a place where they are totally immersed under God's permanent judgment, having been rendered finally and permanently by Jesus in the final Judgment. In this way, they are consumed; God Himself is the consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24; 9:3; Hebrews 12:29). This is their eternal punishment; it is not a "fleeting" or "momentary" punishment.

We can leave it at that if you like. Grace and peace to you.

So simple question, does sin and sinners continue in Gods Kingdom...?

 

[PinSeeker]

So simple question, does sin and sinners continue in Gods Kingdom...?

Of course not. I've been very clear about that over and over again here. That you would postulate that my answer to this simple question could be yes... or that you would even ask it... is astounding.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

Of course not. I've been very clear about that over and over again here. That you would postulate that my answer to this simple question could be yes... or that you would even ask it... is astounding.

Grace and peace to you.

So justice means the wicked and the source of sin must be destroyed completely and cease to exist..

 

[PinSeeker]

So justice means the wicked and the source of sin must be destroyed completely and cease to exist..

"To cease to exist" is not the sense in which 'destroyed' is used in God's Word.

Yes, 'destroy(ed)' can mean "to put an end to the existence of (something)."

But it can also mean ~ and does in the particular cases you are referring to in God's Word ~ "to bring (someone) to ruin emotionally and/or spiritually," or "to defeat (someone) utterly." In the case of the unrepentant, the first definition here is the proper one (they are ruined spiritually and emotionally). But in the case of the devil, it is the second (finally and utterly defeated). But it is the same result for both. This is the second death.

In the contexts of the passages you're referring to, the latter is the sense in which we are to understand 'destroy(ed).'

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.