They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Hobie]

"To cease to exist" is not the sense in which 'destroyed' is used in God's Word.

Yes, 'destroy(ed)' can mean "to put an end to the existence of (something)."

But it can also mean ~ and does in the particular cases you are referring to in God's Word ~ "to bring (someone) to ruin emotionally and/or spiritually," or "to defeat (someone) utterly." In the case of the unrepentant, the first definition here is the proper one (they are ruined spiritually and emotionally). But in the case of the devil, it is the second (finally and utterly defeated). But it is the same result for both. This is the second death.

In the contexts of the passages you're referring to, the latter is the sense in which we are to understand 'destroy(ed).'

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

They are consumed, burned to ashes, nothing but destroyed elements, they perish... They will cease to exist, that's why it's called the second death because from this one God does not bring you back...

 

[ewq1938]

They are consumed, burned to ashes, nothing but destroyed elements, they perish... They will cease to exist, that's why it's called the second death because from this one God does not bring you back...

I agree with the result but it's called the second death because they are resurrected so they can die a second time. This is the punishment for being unsaved and it is said to be everlasting which naturally means there is no resurrection after this final death.

 

[Hobie]

I agree with the result but it's called the second death because they are resurrected so they can die a second time. This is the punishment for being unsaved and it is said to be everlasting which naturally means there is no resurrection after this final death.

Then it seems we are in agreement...

 

[PinSeeker]

Then it seems we are in agreement...

And both in error.

No man physically dies twice; Hebrews 9:27 is very clear that "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." And God Himself is the "consuming fire"... Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29 are clear on that. The lake of fire of Revelation 19 and 20 is the final, eternal dwelling place of the unrepentant, where they will be totally immersed in God's final, permanent judgment. The unrepentant are resurrected to judgment and enter into this state for all eternity. What exactly it is we cannot know, but we can be sure that it is far ~ even infinitely ~ worse than annihilation. I tremble just thinking about it.

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Timtofly]

And both in error.

No man physically dies twice; Hebrews 9:27 is very clear that "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." And God Himself is the "consuming fire"... Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29 are clear on that. The lake of fire of Revelation 19 and 20 is the final, eternal dwelling place of the unrepentant, where they will be totally immersed in God's final, permanent judgment. The unrepentant are resurrected to judgment and enter into this state for all eternity. What exactly it is we cannot know, but we can be sure that it is far ~ even infinitely ~ worse than annihilation. I tremble just thinking about it.

Grace and peace to you both.

All three of you are wrong.

If one is granted the first resurrection at the GWT Judgment, they will not be cast into the LOF.

There is no resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:12-15

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

There is literally no resurrection mentioned nor implied. In fact the driving theme is all the dead are cast into the LOF. If there is a resurrection granted, it is not to stand in judgment. It would be a judgment granted, and their name not removed from the Lamb's book of life, but instead eternal life and the second birth and first resurrection would be instantaneous. They would then have physical bodies and live on the New Earth as redeemed.

The verse does not say it is appointed unto man, once to die, and then a guaranteed resurrection. After death, the only guarantee is judgment. At the judgment, one is either handed a first resurrection or a second death.

 

[PinSeeker]

All three of you are wrong.

LOL!

If one is granted the first resurrection at the GWT Judgment, they will not be cast into the LOF.

Don't think any of us disagrees with this; I don't. But all will be granted this resurrection, which is actually the second. The first, specific only to God's elect, has already taken place prior to the final Judgment. These are the ones who, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2, "even when (they) were dead in their trespasses, were made alive together with Christ and raised (them) up..." ~ indeed, resurrected ~ "...with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Those of us who have been born again have indeed been resurrected in spirit and in this way are with Christ; indeed our very lives are hidden in Him. Paul says in Colossians 2:11-13, "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him..."

There is no resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:12-15

Not explicitly, no, but when we arrive at the passage beginning in verse 11, the second resurrection is understood as having just happened, because it happens at the return of Jesus, which... is Christianity 101 (so to speak). As He Himself said, the "hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Right, see directly above. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes this final judgment graphically.

There is literally no resurrection mentioned nor implied.

Again, not explicitly in Revelation 20:11-15. But... see above.

In fact the driving theme is all the dead are cast into the LOF.

I would say the over-arching point of verses 11-15 is that all are judged at the final Judgment.

If there is a resurrection granted, it is not to stand in judgment.

Well, yes, many who are resurrected will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, and will not stand in the judgment. That's a very Psalm 1 statement: "...the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

It would be a judgment granted...

Indeed, except I certainly would not call it a granting. God's judgments never "grant" anything.

...their name not removed from the Lamb's book of life...

No name is removed from the Book of Life, but many will have never been there, and for this reason they will not be found written in the book of life, which is the precise wording of Revelation 20:15 ~ "if anyone’s name (is) not found written in the book of life, he (will be) thrown into the lake of fire." There is nothing there about any "removal," only that they are not found.

...eternal life and the second birth and first resurrection would be instantaneous.

This is true for God's elect. For now, though, the eternal life part is merely assured (although no mere thing), because eternity, the age to come, is yet to come.

They would then have physical bodies and live on the New Earth as redeemed.

God's elect will, yes.

The verse does not say it is appointed unto man, once to die, and then a guaranteed resurrection. After death, the only guarantee is judgment. At the judgment, one is either handed a first resurrection or a second death.

Well, a resurrection to eternal life or a resurrection to judgment (John 5:28-29). And if this resurrection is to judgment, then he/she will experience not annihilation, but eternal existence under the judgment of God and in punishment. In Scripture we have the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment ~ there is a hell into which all those who rest in their own works and not in Christ alone will be cast, and in that place, they will feel God's wrath forever and ever (Revelation 20:10, 14-15); this is the second death.

Grace and peace to you all.

 

[Timtofly]

No name is removed from the Book of Life, but many will have never been there, and for this reason they will not be found written in the book of life, which is the precise wording of Revelation 20:15 ~ "if anyone’s name (is) not found written in the book of life, he (will be) thrown into the lake of fire." There is nothing there about any "removal," only that they are not found.

Only those found? So you accept limited Atonement, and God was not capable? Or God decided not to provide universal Atonement?

You are missing the point. God can remove a name at the GWT Judgment, if that is the will of that person. But God will not remove a name if that person accepts the first resurrection as a means to escape the LOF.

So which is it, because it cannot be both? All are resurrected, or all were never placed in the Lamb's book of life? Daniel 12:1-2

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So every one found in the Lamb's book of life will be delivered. All the dead does not mean they all were left out. At the opening of the 7th Seal, names will start to be removed.

You can claim that Daniel was being symbolic and then add your opinion and call it good. Your opinion cannot be wrong since taking these words literally would be wrong, but your opinion is the symbolism Daniel was aiming at.

Look again: the verse does not say all of them that sleep in the dust, it says many of them. Then it says some of the many, not all of the all will have eternal life, some of the many not all of the all will have eternal contempt. So this cannot be the one time ultimate judgment for every human ever conceived.

In Revelation chapter 20 it says that three places give up their dead: the sea, the grave, and death. So what is the closest thing Daniel is calling the dust in that list? If they are sleeping in the dust, that would be considered dead and in the grave, no?

But waking from sleep is not necessarily a first resurrection. Because I have pointed out that Lazarus received the first resurrection when he walked out of that tomb, a permanent incorruptible physical body, but you all disagreed. So at the end coming out of the dust is not a resurrection at all, to you, because it is no more than what you point out about Lazarus and not a resurrection. You claim Lazarus went back to sleep. So then these at the GWT Judgment event are only awake long enough; not resurrected, to decide if they want to be some of those who remain in the Lamb's book of life, or do they want to keep rejecting redemption, and be removed from the Lamb's book of Life.

Because many have already been removed and tossed into the LOF over 1,000 years before Daniel sees some have eternal life and some remain eternally dead.

While I don't agree with your opinion about Lazarus, I do agree that what you claim about Lazarus would apply to some at the GWT Judgment, because all those there just woke up, but are not resurrected like Lazarus was 1994 years ago from today.

Even John does not say:

"But all the rest of the dead will all live again after the thousand years are finished. They are guaranteed the first resurrection."

John says:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

That is a negative connotation that means they have a chance, but probably won't. Living again is the first resurrection. Some will live again as Daniel pointed out. Others will have eternal contempt, the second death.

And another vast majority will have already received the first resurrection, even at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.

Daniel saw the end, but that does not rule out all those who already had a first, physical resurrection. Nor does it rule out that many had already been judged, removed from the Lamb's book of life and tossed into the LOF over 1,000 years earlier. Because John specifically points out the rest of the dead keep waiting for that final judgment, while some were standing before thrones and already granted the first, physical resurrection.

And the reason why there is a first and second was given in John 3, when Jesus explained the first was physical and the second was spiritual. The first birth, physical. The second birth spiritual. The first death, physical. The second death spiritual. And the first resurrection, is physical. And a second resurrection is never implied nor pointed out any where in Scripture.

The GWT Judgment event is not a second resurrection point. And it is implied that some of the dead standing there, may receive the first, physical resurrection, to eternal life. Those who are the dead emptied out of sheol, because the grave and first, physical death is related to dust and sleeping in Scripture. Now Death on the other hand relates to a place where people wait after physically dying, after being removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those alive on the earth who receive the mark have been removed from the Lamb's book of life at the moment they are marked. When they physically die remain in Death. But some who stand in Judgment are physically cast into the LOF without ever physically dying first. Having a body does not mean one is physically resurrected, because one body is still death and corruption, and the first resurrection body is permanent and incorruptible. They are physically dead, but awake, not resurrected.

 

[PinSeeker]

Only those found?

Well, yes, but certainly not in the sense that "God couldn't find any of the others," but rather that only the ones whose names were/are in the Book are in the Book. The text reads, verbatim, "if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Those whose name is/will not be found written in the Book of Life were never written there by its author (God, of course), and are therefore not among God's elect.

So you accept limited Atonement...

Yes, but we know that not everyone is saved... and that God's salvation, once given, is irrevocable. Jesus's atonement is sufficient for the salvation of everyone, sufficient to save everyone, and in that sense is unlimited. But, God has mercy/compassion on some but not others ~ those whom He chooses, according to His purpose of election (Romans 9). So, Jesus's atonement was/is only effectual for the ones God chose before the foundation of the world, His elect, so in that sense, Jesus's atonement is limited.

...and God was not capable?

A ridiculous supposition. See above.

Or God decided not to provide universal Atonement?

Correct. Is God not sovereign over all His creation? Can He not make some for noble use and others for common use? Is this not His prerogative as Creator of all?

You are missing the point.

You are purposely avoiding the point. Or making a flawed "point." Or both.

God can remove a name at the GWT Judgment,

Well, He could do anything He wants, of course, but God doesn't make mistakes. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Again, the names not found in the Book of Life are the names purposefully excluded at it's writing by it's Author. Those names were never in the Book of Life, and never will be, so, at the final Judgment, will not be found to be in the Book of Life.

if that is the will of that person.

Ah, "free will..." Here we go; this is what it always comes down to. So you seem to be saying one of two things, if not both, that our wills dictate the will of God, and also that God Himself does not have free will.

But God will not remove a name...

He removes ~ or adds ~ nothing. It is what it is. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).

if that person accepts the first resurrection as a means to escape the LOF.

As John says, Timtofly, "to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13). Let me ask you, did you have any say in your physical birth into this world? Well of course not. Likewise, your new birth was not your choice. After this birth of the Spirit, yes, certainly, you chose to follow Jesus (at least I hope you did), but you did not have any say regarding being born.

So which is it, because it cannot be both?

LOL! See above.

All are resurrected,

Right. Never said otherwise.

... or all were never placed in the Lamb's book of life?

Some. Many. Not all. See above.

Daniel 12:1-2

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Do you not see a limited aspect to God's salvation there, Timtofly?

So every one found in the Lamb's book of life will be delivered.

Absolutely.

All the dead does not mean they all were left out.

Of course not. I'm really not sure how you could even insinuate that I think otherwise, based on what I have said.

At the opening of the 7th Seal, names will start to be removed.

There will be no removal. The names that are not in the Lamb's Book of Life have never been there, and for the ones outside of God's elect, never will. These will be resurrected to judgment rather than to eternal life.

...the verse does not say all of them that sleep in the dust, it says many of them. Then it says some of the many, not all of the all will have eternal life, some of the many not all of the all will have eternal contempt. So this cannot be the one time ultimate judgment for every human ever conceived.

You are misunderstanding what Daniel says there. The NASB is the better translation, even better than the ESV, saying "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." Jesus is referring directly to this very verse, Daniel 12:2, in John 5:28-29 when He says, "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

...I have pointed out that Lazarus received the first resurrection when he walked out of that tomb, a permanent incorruptible physical body...

Yes, you have... He had already experienced the first resurrection (which is not physical, not from physical death).

...but you all disagreed.

We did, yes.

So at the end coming out of the dust is not a resurrection at all, to you, because it is no more than what you point out about Lazarus and not a resurrection.

Nobody has said Lazarus's raising was not a resurrection. But, he had already experienced the first resurrection ~ having been born again of the Spirit and experiencing it; the first resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit ~ and then receiving the gift of faith by God and then believing and repenting, and he will experience the second resurrection with everyone else, his being to eternal life. The physical resurrection he received by Christ was a foreshadowing of the resurrection of all at the end of the age when Christ returns; Lazarus subsequently died, although we don't know when, and he is awaiting this second resurrection now just like everyone else who has died.

You claim Lazarus went back to sleep.

He did.

So then these at the GWT Judgment event are only awake long enough; not resurrected, to decide if they want to be some of those who remain in the Lamb's book of life, or do they want to keep rejecting redemption, and be removed from the Lamb's book of Life.

No, they have all experienced the second resurrection and stand before the throne and Jesus, awaiting the final judgment, the outcome of which will be based on whose names are found in the Book of Life and whose are not. There is no "removing," it is what it is... will be what it is.

Because many have already been removed and tossed into the LOF over 1,000 years before Daniel sees some have eternal life and some remain eternally dead.

A misconstruing of the millennium.

Even John does not say: "But all the rest of the dead will all live again after the thousand years are finished. They are guaranteed the first resurrection." John says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." That is a negative connotation that means they have a chance, but probably won't.

A conflation. Verse 5 is a reference to those who are not in Christ, either in this life or when the

Living again is the first resurrection.

Being raised in spirit, having been born again of the Spirit, is the first resurrection. An event that each of God's elect experience in this life, each at his/her appointed time (in the manner of those Acts 13:48).

Some will live again as Daniel pointed out. Others will have eternal contempt, the second death.

Sure. And John in John 5:28-29, as I have said numerous times.

And another vast majority will have already received the first resurrection, even at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.

<chuckles> There is no other group. And the moment of the first resurrection is in this life, each at his/her appointed time. This resurrection is not of the body, but of the spirit. See above.

...the reason why there is a first and second was given in John 3, when Jesus explained the first was physical and the second was spiritual. The first birth, physical. The second birth spiritual. The first death, physical. The second death spiritual. And the first resurrection, is physical.

Close... Yes, the first birth is physical, the second birth spiritual, and the first death physical. Agreed on that. But the first resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit, having just been reborn of the spirit; the first resurrection is also spiritual.

And a second resurrection is never implied nor pointed out any where in Scripture.

The fact that there is a "first resurrection," as we see in Revelation 20:6, unmistakeably implies there will be a second resurrection, else the word 'first' is extraneous, which is not the case. There is a second resurrection, and it should be understood to occur just prior to the final Judgment.

The GWT Judgment event is not a second resurrection point.

It's just after the second resurrection, as I said... subsequent to it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, yes, but certainly not in the sense that "God couldn't find any of the others," but rather that only the ones whose names were/are in the Book are in the Book. The text reads, verbatim, "if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Those whose name is/will not be found written in the Book of Life were never written there by its author (God, of course), and are therefore not among God's elect.

But the verse does not read, "that was never found". It points out, "not found at that moment".

You state doctrine that contradicts God did not vote in the election, and did not write their name in His Atonement, until one could choose for themselves.

That is God forcing Salvation, meaning you never had a choice to be saved. Then 90% of humanity never even got a choice to get saved. How does that lign up with John 3:16? Because you have God with two different mind sets.

 

[Timtofly]

So you seem to be saying one of two things, if not both, that our wills dictate the will of God, and also that God Himself does not have free will.

No, God wants us to align our will with His will. But not by force.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, you have... He had already experienced the first resurrection (which is not physical, not from physical death).

You have proof that the first birth is not physical, nor the first death? Do you have proof I have physically died and experienced the first resurrection, which is as physical as the first birth?

Otherwise, you literally have no resurrection at all: first, nor physical.

 

[Timtofly]

Nobody has said Lazarus's raising was not a resurrection. But, he had already experienced the first resurrection ~ having been born again of the Spirit and experiencing it; the first resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit ~ and then receiving the gift of faith by God and then believing and repenting, and he will experience the second resurrection with everyone else, his being to eternal life.

Lazarus was born from above, even before Jesus died on the Cross, under the OT Covenant?

So is the physical resurrection a first and a half or second?

Why is the spiritual resurrection before spiritual birth and spiritual death? Does one become spiritually born, then immediately spiritually die, and then immediately spiritually resurrected?

 

[Timtofly]

, else the word 'first' is extraneous, which is not the case.

Yet you make it extraneous by calling the salvation experience both the second birth and first resurrection.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yet you make it extraneous by calling the salvation experience both the second birth and first resurrection.

LOL! It is what it is. One is born again of the Spirit, and raised (resurrected) from death in sin to life in Christ.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Lazarus was born from above, even before Jesus died on the Cross, under the OT Covenant?

Yes. He was already a believer, when he died (the first time), so, necessarily, he had been born again of the Spirit.

So is the physical resurrection a first and a half or second?

LOL! I don't even know what your "logic" is in asking that question. <chuckes>

Why is the spiritual resurrection before spiritual birth and spiritual death?

The spiritual resurrection is not before either. We are all born (of our mother) spiritually dead, dead in our sin. And we must be born again to be resurrected in spirit.

Does one become spiritually born, then immediately spiritually die, and then immediately spiritually resurrected?

LOL! See directly above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, God wants us to align our will with His will. But not by force.

Ah, so we force His will; His will is not free. I... see... No, Timtofly, we disagree. God changes our nature; we are first dead in our sin and slaves to unrighteousness. He gives us new birth in the Spirit, and then we cannot do any other than to change our own free will to be in alignment with His. Our free will is always in alignment to our father the devil, or, after we are born again, our Father God. It is a setting free, a freedom from slavery to unrighteousness, that God grants us in bestowing salvation upon us.

Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have proof that the first birth is not physical...

I believe I've been very clear in saying the first birth is physical...

...nor the first death?

...and the first death is physical also.

Do you have proof I have physically died...

You're... not physically dead...

...and experienced the first resurrection,

If you believe in Christ and have repented of your sin, then you have experienced the first resurrection. Ephesians 2:4-10 and 1 Peter 1:3-5 are irrefutable proof of that. But I really can't know for sure if you truly believe in Christ. I assume you do, though.

which is as physical as the first birth?

Something else I have been crystal clear on; the first resurrection being physical is only something you believe, not I. The first resurrection is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2:4-8, as I have said many, many times, and it is spiritual. You disagree. Well, fine.

Otherwise, you literally have no resurrection at all: first, nor physical.

Yeah, see above. We were dead in our trespassessin but have been made alive together with Christ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6. This is the first resurrection.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

But the verse does not read, "that was never found". It points out, "not found at that moment".

It does not say "at that moment," those are your words. Something can be not found either because it was lost (or the seeker is not able to find it) or because it is just not there to be found, and the latter is how it is to be understood.

You state doctrine that contradicts God did not vote in the election, and did not write their name in His Atonement, until one could choose for themselves.

Right, because the latter is not Biblical doctrine. God does not "vote." He chooses, according to His own perfect will, dependent on nothing outside of Himself.

That is God forcing Salvation, meaning you never had a choice to be saved.

You are welcome to your opinion, but by that same token, I say the way you have it forces God's will to conform to ours, that He has no choice but to save us, so that would necessarily mean two things, that we ourselves are sovereign over God and that the one we should praise and worship for our salvation is ourselves. Perish those thoughts outright.

Then 90% of humanity never even got a choice to get saved.

Study the following from Paul in Romans 1:

"(God's) invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..."

How does that lign up with John 3:16?

Perfectly. You should see "whosoever" in John 3:16 in the same context as Joel's in Joel 2:32... John was referring directly to this passage in John 3:16, and Paul does the same in Romans 10:13. Here you go:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

As you would have it, God's calling us unto Himself depends first on our calling on His name, but no, that's backwards... Only those whom God calls will call on the name of the Lord.

Because you have God with two different mind sets.

LOL! No...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

It does not say "at that moment," those are your words. Something can be not found either because it was lost (or the seeker is not able to find it) or because it is just not there to be found, and the latter is how it is to be understood.


Right, because the latter is not Biblical doctrine. God does not "vote." He chooses, according to His own perfect will, dependent on nothing outside of Himself.


You are welcome to your opinion, but by that same token, I say the way you have it forces God's will to conform to ours, that He has no choice but to save us, so that would necessarily mean two things, that we ourselves are sovereign over God and that the one we should praise and worship for our salvation is ourselves. Perish those thoughts outright.


Study the following from Paul in Romans 1:

"(God's) invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..."


Perfectly. You should see "whosoever" in John 3:16 in the same context as Joel's in Joel 2:32... John was referring directly to this passage in John 3:16, and Paul does the same in Romans 10:13. Here you go:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

As you would have it, God's calling us unto Himself depends first on our calling on His name, but no, that's backwards... Only those whom God calls will call on the name of the Lord.


LOL! No...

Grace and peace to you.

So your whole point is that our will is not the same as God's and never can be, so no one will be redeemed?


You don't make sense, when it is clear, we can change our will to conform to God's will, even without God's help.

So how is changing our mind to accept Salvation forcing God to do anything, since Salvation is God's will?

Now God already states that all are already condemned who never change their minds. They are not forcing God to condemned them. They were already condemned because of Adam. Adam was the one who disobeyed and forced God to be the Lamb of redemption. Not any of Adam's descendants are responsible for God's condemnation nor are they forcing God to do anything. No one is forcing God to redeem them. No one is forcing God not to redeem them.

You whole argument is based on the erroneous premise: free will somehow dictates what God does.

God was not willing that any should perish, so He elected of His own free will to be the only Lamb of redemption for all. Then God reserves the right to blot out those who vote against themselves, because that choice was made by Adam in the Garden.

And there is no verse that explicitly states God wrote only a few, or none at all into the Lamb's book of life. There are several verses about God blotting names out. But that can only happen after the 7th Seal is opened. And God can repent and change His mind. That is Scripture as well. So no one is coercing God to do anything. And yes, His sovereignty is still intact.