They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

The subject matter is resurrection. So when he says "raised" he means "resurrected."

Why would Paul write the spiritual body is resurrected since in Christ, through His Spirit within us we shall NEVER die? It seems Paul understands those who physically die in faith ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers as living souls! That's why Paul writes they are "raised" and not resurrected spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

According to Paul, the resurrected go meet the Lord in the air.

The passage says only that we shall be "caught up/raptured" to meet the Lord in the air. First the faithful dead in the graves shall be physically resurrected (Jo 5:28-29), and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible (1Cor 15:51-57), then all who are of faith and still alive at His coming are caught up and changed together with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A physical body that has come into existence in supernatural manner.

Man will not be a spiritual body.

What Scripture can prove the physical body changes from physical to become a supernatural? Yes, I agree with your last statement. I believe man fit for everlasting life on the new earth will be a physical immortal & incorruptible body of flesh & bone with a breath of life that is spirit, and the two shall once again be living souls on the new earth where there shall be no more death, nor more sorrow, no more sin and corruption for nothing impure shall be found there.

 

[Zao is life]

In my view, the term "spiritual death" has no meaning. Once the spirit dies, the entire person dies. So I can't conceive of a case where a living person has a dead spirit.

While Paul was still alive, he wrote a letter to the Christians in Philippi, expressing the desire (concerning these Christians and this church which he established), that he

"shall be ashamed in nothing, but as always now Christ shall be magnified in my body [soma] with all boldness, whether it is by life [zoe] or by death [thanatos]." (Philippians 1:20).

Then Paul implied, without any ambiguity, that those who die dwelling in Christ remain in Christ after death, when he added,

"For to me to live [záō] is Christ, and to die [apothnesko] is gain. But if I live [záō] in the flesh [sarx], this is the fruit of my labor.
Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:20-24).

In another letter, written to a different congregation of Christians in another place, Paul wrote,

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven; if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked ..

.. For we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life. And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (guarantee) of the (Holy) Spirit.

Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:1-9).

Jesus promised the following reality for those who believe in Him:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves." (John 14:10-11).

"Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:19-20).
"Dwell in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you dwell in Me." (John 15:4).

"Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it dwell in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will dwell in both the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life."(1 John 2:24-25).

So in reality, Paul could teach that "(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

And this is besides what Paul said about what happens to us after we have died physically, or left the body.

 

[rwb]

In my view, the term "spiritual death" has no meaning. Once the spirit dies, the entire person dies. So I can't conceive of a case where a living person has a dead spirit.

Then why does Christ tell believers that they shall NEVER die? We know the physical body dies, so what never dies if not the spirit in man that returns to God?

To be dead in trespasses in sins is not to be without spirit (breath of life). It means the only voice man that is dead in trespasses and sins can hear since sin entered creation, is the spirit of this world, the spirit that guides the children of disobedience. Until man is supernaturally born again through the Spirit of Christ within, they are only able to hear that which is natural to them and apart from the Spirit of Christ within they have no understanding of the things/ways of God and Christ. That's why Christ says we must be born again if we desire to have everlasting life through His Spirit in us.

 

[Zao is life]

Why would Paul write the spiritual body is resurrected since in Christ, through His Spirit within us we shall NEVER die? It seems Paul understands those who physically die in faith ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers as living souls! That's why Paul writes they are "raised" and not resurrected spiritual body.

There are no verses in the New Testament that talk about the resurrection or being "raised from death" that are talking a bout a "spiritual" resurrection. Not even one. Being born of of the Spirit is birth, not "resurrection" (which always implies resurrection from death).

No one born into the world ever died spiritually from the time he existed in his mother's womb until the time of his physical death, so that he needed to be "spiritually" resurrected. But many who are born of the flesh are later born from the first of the Spirit. It's birth, not resurrection from death.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



The passage says only that we shall be "caught up/raptured" to meet the Lord in the air. First the faithful dead in the graves shall be physically resurrected (Jo 5:28-29), and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible (1Cor 15:51-57), then all who are of faith and still alive at His coming are caught up and changed together with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.




What Scripture can prove the physical body changes from physical to become a supernatural? Yes, I agree with your last statement. I believe man fit for everlasting life on the new earth will be a physical immortal & incorruptible body of flesh & bone with a breath of life that is spirit, and the two shall once again be living souls on the new earth where there shall be no more death, nor more sorrow, no more sin and corruption for nothing impure shall be found there.

 

[rwb]

I don't agree with that. Ezekiel produced an entire chapter, chapter 18, to say that is simply not true.

Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.

Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.

Ezekiel says "the soul who sins shall die." Who among mankind is not destined to physically die? Every human is destined to die since sin and death through sin entered creation.

 

[rwb]

There are no verses in the New Testament that talk about the resurrection or being "raised from death" that are talking a bout a "spiritual" resurrection. Not even one. Being born of of the Spirit is birth, not "resurrection" (which always implies resurrection from death).

No one born into the world ever died spiritually from the time he existed in his mother's womb until the time of his physical death, so that he needed to be "spiritually" resurrected. But many who are born of the flesh are later born from the first of the Spirit. It's birth, not resurrection from death.

This helps to explain your confusion, since you appear not to have understanding of why man must be born again to have eternal life through Christ. Nor do you appear to have understanding of eternal life through Christ's Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Zao is life]

Then why does Christ tell believers that they shall NEVER die? We know the physical body dies, so what never dies if not the spirit in man that returns to God?

To be dead in trespasses in sins is not to be without spirit (breath of life). It means the only voice man that is dead in trespasses and sins can hear since sin entered creation, is the spirit of this world, the spirit that guides the children of disobedience. Until man is supernaturally born again through the Spirit of Christ within, they are only able to hear that which is natural to them and apart from the Spirit of Christ within they have no understanding of the things/ways of God and Christ. That's why Christ says we must be born again if we desire to have everlasting life through His Spirit in us.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Jesus is talking about the resurrection, and there is not one place where the resurrection is spoken about in scripture that is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death:

he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Zao is always (without exception talking about life in the body in the New Testament.

Remember that Martha's brother had just died.

It's still in the same context that Jesus continues,

And And whosoever is zao (alive in the body) AND believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?

Jesus means only one thing: He is the resurrection. After the resurrection, those who are alive in the body and believe in Him will never die.

Martha's brother had just died. That is the context.

 

[Zao is life]

This helps to explain your confusion, since you appear not to have understanding of why man must be born again to have eternal life through Christ. Nor do you appear to have understanding of eternal life through Christ's Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Actually what you say above helps to explain your own confusion, since you appear not to have understanding of why man must be born again to have eternal life through Christ. Nor do you appear to have understanding of eternal life through Christ's Spirit.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Jesus is talking about the resurrection, and there is not one place where the resurrection is spoken about in scripture that is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death:

he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Zao is always (without exception talking about life in the body in the New Testament.

Remember that Martha's brother had just died.

It's still in the same context that Jesus continues,

And whosoever is zao (alive in the body) AND believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?

Jesus means only one thing: He is the resurrection. After the resurrection, those who are alive in the body and believe in Him will never die.

Martha's brother had just died. That is the context.

You cannot resurrect us in our own bodies before we are resurrected in our own bodies, no matter how much you read such things into what it means to be quickened. The word quickened refers to the birth of the Spirit in the New Testament - not ever to resurrection:

Note: The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body.

zōopoiéō is used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive again, giving or imparting (eternal) life. It's also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body.

syzōopoiéō is used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ.

synegeírō refers to being bodily raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

The word zōopoiéō is used in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45 (where a distinction is being made between being made alive by the Spirit on one hand, and the resurrection of the body on the other); as well as in:-

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

Our quickening and resurrection:

The word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament, each time telling us that our quickening and resurrection occurs because of and together with:

(A) the quickening of Christ by the Spirit; and

(B) His resurrection:

(1)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō] , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō refers to the resurrection of the body from death.
The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive by the Spirit of God breathing life into a person.

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

(2)

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily.

@rwb
záō: alive in the body (always in the body).
zōopoiéō: Quickened by the Spirit.
syzōopoiéō: Qickened together with Christ.

synegeírō: Bodily resurrection with Christ's bodily resurrection.
anástasis, égersis: THE resurrection of the body (always of the body).
anístēmi; and egeírō: The words are not always used in reference to the resurrection: Sometimes they are used for rising up (as in "get up!"), or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep (in a normal sense), but wherever they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead".

@rwb There is no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection in the New Testament. All New Testament verses talking about the resurrection or being raised from the dead or being raised with Christ are talking about the resurrection of the body, and pertain only to the body, just as all New Testament verses talking about the quickening of the Spirit pertain to birth by the Spirit.​

 

[rwb]

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Jesus is talking about the resurrection, and there is not one place where the resurrection is spoken about in scripture that is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death:

he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Zao is always (without exception talking about life in the body in the New Testament.

Remember that Martha's brother had just died.

It's still in the same context that Jesus continues,

And And whosoever is zao (alive in the body) AND believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?

Jesus means only one thing: He is the resurrection. After the resurrection, those who are alive in the body and believe in Him will never die.

Martha's brother had just died. That is the context.

Christ tells Martha "I am the resurrection and the LIFE". IOW in Him we live and breathe and have our being and that life we receive through Him shall NEVER die. Christ is telling her and us that physical death cannot end the life we have in Him. For that life shall never die. It's a present life not just life in the last day. In the same sense in which He has declared Himself to be the Water of Life and the Bread of Life, supplying in Himself every need of spiritual thirst and spiritual hunger, He declares Himself to be the Resurrection and the Life. You, like Martha do not understand that when we have part in Christ, the Resurrection and the Life, though our body dies WE shall NEVER die. Because the life we have through Him is FOREVER!

 

[rwb]

Actually what you say above helps to explain your own confusion, since you appear not to have understanding of why man must be born again to have eternal life through Christ. Nor do you appear to have understanding of eternal life through Christ's Spirit.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Jesus is talking about the resurrection, and there is not one place where the resurrection is spoken about in scripture that is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death:

he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):"

Zao is always (without exception talking about life in the body in the New Testament.

Remember that Martha's brother had just died.

It's still in the same context that Jesus continues,

And whosoever is zao (alive in the body) AND believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?

Jesus means only one thing: He is the resurrection. After the resurrection, those who are alive in the body and believe in Him will never die.

Martha's brother had just died. That is the context.

You cannot resurrect us in our own bodies before we are resurrected in our own bodies, no matter how much you read such things into what it means to be quickened. The word quickened refers to the birth of the Spirit in the New Testament - not ever to resurrection:

Note: The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body.

zōopoiéō is used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive again, giving or imparting (eternal) life. It's also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body.

syzōopoiéō is used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ.

synegeírō refers to being bodily raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

The word zōopoiéō is used in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45 (where a distinction is being made between being made alive by the Spirit on one hand, and the resurrection of the body on the other); as well as in:-

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

Our quickening and resurrection:

The word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament, each time telling us that our quickening and resurrection occurs because of and together with:

(A) the quickening of Christ by the Spirit; and

(B) His resurrection:

(1)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō] , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō refers to the resurrection of the body from death.
The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive by the Spirit of God breathing life into a person.

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

(2)

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily.

@rwb
záō: alive in the body (always in the body).
zōopoiéō: Quickened by the Spirit.
syzōopoiéō: Qickened together with Christ.

synegeírō: Bodily resurrection with Christ's bodily resurrection.
anástasis, égersis: THE resurrection of the body (always of the body).
anístēmi; and egeírō: The words are not always used in reference to the resurrection: Sometimes they are used for rising up (as in "get up!"), or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep (in a normal sense), but wherever they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead".

@rwb There is no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection in the New Testament. All New Testament verses talking about the resurrection or being raised from the dead or being raised with Christ are talking about the resurrection of the body, and pertain only to the body, just as all New Testament verses talking about the quickening of the Spirit pertain to birth by the Spirit.​

I don't know what to say to you FOG! If you have not partaken of the resurrection through the Spirit of Christ then you remain dead in, your trespasses and sins and without eternal life that comes only by faith. Believing that Christ is the Resurrection and the LIFE, not in this life only but in that which is to come.

 

[PinSeeker]

If you mean to say that mankind is spiritually dead from birth, then you are wrong.

Naturally, we are dead in our sin from birth. Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-5 that even we who are now in Christ were dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked… we all once lived in the passions of our flesh… and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. This is the natural human condition. But God… made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved. I have no real problem with you saying whatever you want about me, JBO. But no, it is what it is, my friend.

God forms the spirit in each of us. He doesn't give us a spirit dead at birth. He gives us a spirit alive and well at birth…

I think we’re just talking past each other, JBO. Just in what you say here, sure, I agree.

Just like Adam and Eve…

Well, yes, we’re like Adam and Eve, after the fall of Genesis 3. But remember what God said to Adam in Genesis 2:17… that if he ate if the tree, he would surely die that very day. I say he died that very day, just like God said He would. And Eve was the mother of all the living, meaning that condition acquired by Adam and Eve is inherited by us all.

the spirit of a man dies when he sins

Ah! Well, I say we sin because of our nature, the nature that we inherited from Adam… because we are spiritually dead from birth. The natural man sins because he is dead in sin. When we are born again of the Spirit, then we are alive to God and in Christ. We still sin because the old nature is still with us (for now, in this life), but God has given us a new nature, and therefore we want to avoid sin and to please and glorify Him ~ because we are no longer of our father the devil (see what Jesus says in John 10 to the Jews He is speaking to at the Feast of Dedication), but now of God… He is our Father; we want to do His will. As Paul says in Romans 5, we are no longer slaves to unrighteousness; we are now slaves to righteousness. You see?

. When we are reborn, the spirit comes alive again. That is why it is called REbirth or REgeneration or born AGAIN.

Like, alive, and then alive-er? Or alive, and then dead, and then alive, but even though we were never dead? Or… I’m poking at you a bit; sorry…

Okay, well… I disagree. See above.

No I don't. I said in reply #22 that I don't have a clue what a spiritual body is.

Okay, that’s cool; thanks for the humility; I appreciate that. But I would submit to you, JBO, that if you are a Christian, if you are in Christ, you have one. But only in part for now… not yet in full. But it will be… … when the King returns.

And neither did the apostles. And neither do you.

Well, okay… sort of agree… Not in full. See above.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

And by the way, that means that Jesus was not in a spiritual body when he arose and came out of the tomb following His death on the cross as some think.

Disagree. Our resurrection will be just like His. And it’s worth remembering what the disciples were told after Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that He will return in the same way.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't know what to say to you FOG! If you have not partaken of the resurrection through the Spirit of Christ then you remain dead in, your trespasses and sins and without eternal life that comes only by faith. Believing that Christ is the Resurrection and the LIFE, not in this life only but in that which is to come.

Well likewise I don't know what to say to you, rwb, because if you somehow believe you have risen from the dead bodily (because in the New Testament the resurrection is always only talking about the resurrection of the body),

and you do not realize that the eternal life in you is the Spirit of Christ in you which came to you through the same quickening by the Spirit which was experienced by Him when He had died for your sins, and through His own bodily resurrection from the dead,

and you somehow believe that it's not necessary to receive the same quickening of your mortal body by the same Spirit in the resurrection, then you have no hope for what is not yet seen.

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

"For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience." (Romans 8:24-25).

@rwb I have not remained dead in my sins because it is Christ who died for me and rose again from the dead, and it is His Spirit which gave me birth and by which I live.

I think you ought to keep your remarks that imply someone who belongs to Christ and was bought by His blood, is not saved and remains dead in his sins, to yourself, or else deal with Jesus one day.​

 

[Zao is life]

Naturally, we are dead in our sin from birth. Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-5 that even we who are now in Christ were dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked… we all once lived in the passions of our flesh… and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. This is the natural human condition.

.. so when did you die spiritually so that you need to be "spiritually" resurrected? Before or after you were born?

Or was your spirit actually just quickened through being born of the Spirit?

Did you know that the New Testament never ever talks about resurrection except when it's talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

@PinSeeker If you say you have been "spiritually" resurrected, then according to you, it must have been before you were even born that you died spiritually, because you say (correctly) that you were dead in your sin from birth, because in the New Testament the Resurrection always implies resurrection from death.​

 

[PinSeeker]

No such thing as “dead in spirit.”

Yes there is, JBO. I certainly don’t mean to offend, or “talk down to,” you or anyone else, but you just seem to not really grasp what that means. In this life, one is either dead in spirit ~ dead in his/her sin, a slave to unrighteousness, of his/her father the devil ~ or born again of the Spirit and therefore in Christ and thus a slave to righteousness, a son of God in Christ Jesus, our elder Brother.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Then why does Christ tell believers that they shall NEVER die? We know the physical body dies, so what never dies if not the spirit in man that returns to God?

The fact believers die, regardless, what should this be telling us then? That Jesus is a liar, that He oftentimes contradicts Himself? Or should it be telling us that since there is a first death and a 2nd death, where the latter there is no resurrecting from, thus are dead forever, therefore, Jesus is meaning believers will never die the 2nd death, thus will live forever instead. Why some of you don't think the 2nd death is relevant here, is beyond me? At least understanding it this way, one is not making a liar out of Christ since He never one single time ever said believers will never die the first death. Obviously then, He had the 2nd death in mind when He said believers will never die. IOW, the 2nd death means to be dead forever, and that the opposite is to be alive forever, thus never die. In this present age no one is alive forever. Everyone dies eventually. Though, it could be argued that the rapture is an exception to this.

 

[PinSeeker]

.. so when did you die spiritually so that you need to be "spiritually" resurrected? Before or after you were born?

We, like David, we’re conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5).

…was your spirit actually just quickened through being born of the Spirit?

Well, yes, but that is most certainly no mere thing. I am… cautiously… interested in how you understand this quickening.

Did you know that the New Testament never ever talks about resurrection except when it's talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

Well, I know that many people think that, yes. And your question here says much to me of your… understanding… of our being quickened by the Spirit…

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The fact believers die, regardless, what should this be telling us then?

Well, maybe that the death Jesus is talking about is far beyond physical death of the mortal body…?

Or… that since there is a first death and a 2nd death, where the latter there is no resurrecting from, thus are dead forever…

Yes. However… I’m not sure if you understand the latter as a cessation of existence, but it is not.

Jesus is meaning believers will never die the 2nd death…

Yes.

thus will live forever instead.

Yes. Will be resurrected to eternal life ~ true life in and with the One Who is life…

Obviously then, He had the 2nd death in mind when He said believers will never die.

Yes.

IOW, the 2nd death means to be dead forever, and that the opposite is to be alive forever, thus never die.

Yes. However… See above. Those who suffer this second death are resurrected to ~ and after the final Judgment depart to, go away obediently into ~ eternal judgment.

In this present age no one is alive forever. Everyone dies eventually.

Sure. This is the first death. It is assigned to all. Yes.

Though, it could be argued that the rapture is an exception to this.

There… is no “rapture” in the sense of removal or displacement or “transport” of any kind. Certainly, when Jesus returns, it will be a rapturous event, in that He will defeat Satan and take back, in full, what has really always been His…

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

We, like David, we’re conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5).


Well, yes, but that is most certainly no mere thing. I am… cautiously… interested in how you understand this quickening.


Well, I know that many people think that, yes. And your question here says much to me of your… understanding… of our being quickened by the Spirit…

Grace and peace to you.

If you say you have been "spiritually" resurrected, then according to you, it must have been before you were even born that you died spiritually and physically, because you say (correctly) that you were dead in your sin from birth, because in the New Testament the Resurrection always implies resurrection of the body from death.

We were dead, spiritually, before God's Spirit gave us life. Everlasting life is in Christ:

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

"For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience." (Romans 8:24-25).

What is the hope that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:24-25 if not the hope of THE resurrection?

If you agree that Romans 8:24-25 is talking about the resurrection of the body, then please supply the New Testament verses where the resurrection is being spoken of, that are talking about a resurrection other than that of the body.

I'll make it easier for you. Here's the list:

The Resurrection of the Body

M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Davidpt]

Well, maybe that the death Jesus is talking about is far beyond physical death of the mortal body…?

I'm not certain what you are meaning by this?

All I know is, that everlasting life is not achievable in this present age. Meaning in the literal sense. No one can remotely live forever in an age that is not everlasting to begin with. By believing now on Christ, this is what seals everlasting life in the future, meaning in the next age. That assuming one doesn't fall away instead, thus not once saved always saved. Is one going to argue that everlasting life is not meaning in the literal sense involving doing that bodily? Can anyone bodily live forever in this present age? Of course not.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, yes, but that is most certainly no mere thing. I am… cautiously… interested in how you understand this quickening.

Well, I know that many people think that, yes. And your question here says much to me of your… understanding… of our being quickened by the Spirit…

Grace and peace to you.

We are born of the Spirit when the Spirit of God breathes life into us. It's not the same as "resurrection". The Bible also makes it clear that immortality | eternal life experienced by any son of Adam | mankind can only be in Christ through whom all things were created, and by whom all things consist, who alone is immortal | has eternal life in Himself.

The words that speak about being made alive | being brought to life ("quickened") by the Spirit | breath of God (zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō), are always talking about being born (gennao) of the Spirit, and never speak of "resurrection". There are no verses in the New Testament speaking about a "spiritual" resurrection.

Similarly, without exception all the verses in the New Testament that that speak about resurrection or THE resurrection, are talking about the resurrection of the body.

Jesus and His apostles taught both about:

(a) being born (gennáō) of the Spirit unto | into eternal life in Christ; and

(b) being raised again in the anástasis (the resurrection of the body).

The New Testament never conflates the resurrection of the body with the spiritual birth which precedes it.

"It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive [zōopoiéō]." (I Corinthians 15:22).

The word zōopoiéō is used in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45 (where a distinction is being made between being made alive by the Spirit on one hand, and the resurrection of the body on the other); as well as in:-

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||
​

Our quickening and resurrection:​

The word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament, each time telling us that our quickening and resurrection occurs because of and together with:

(A) the quickening of Christ by the Spirit; and

(B) His resurrection:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has

(A) [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō] *, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō refers to the resurrection of the body from death.
The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive by the Spirit of God breathing life into a person:

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:9-11).

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5).

In the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening of Christ by the same Spirit,

leads to the resurrection of the body (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

@PinSeeker

záō: alive in the body (always in the body).
zōopoiéō: Quickened by the Spirit.
syzōopoiéō: Qickened together with Christ.

synegeírō: Bodily resurrection with Christ's bodily resurrection.
anástasis, égersis: THE resurrection of the body (always of the body).
anístēmi; and egeírō: The words are not always used in reference to the resurrection: Sometimes they are used for rising up (as in "get up!"), or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep (in a normal sense), but wherever they are speaking about rising from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead".

There is no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection in the New Testament. All New Testament verses talking about the resurrection or being raised from the dead or being raised with Christ are talking about the resurrection of the body, and pertain only to the body, just as all New Testament verses talking about the quickening of the Spirit pertain to birth by the Spirit.​