This is why most believe that Jesus is a Man/Son and not God.

[APAK]

yet what i said still applies i guess; Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God, but only let others say that
and for a good reason too i think If I testify of myself, my testimony is invalid

Yes, the last part you said refers to Jesus saying his Father his with him as the 2nd faithful witness to his claim or testimony, and required by the Law.

John 5:30-36 Witnesses to Jesus - The Father is a superior witness than even John the Baptist
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. (ESV)

Jesus' validated that he is the Son of God as he did the works of his Father, and the Father witnessed them all.

bb..if we believe in the Son and his works we must believe that the Father is true to his word concerning his son.

 

[Pierac]

You don't know me, yet...
J.

I know you.... will not answer....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

Paul

 

[Johann]

I know you.... will not answer....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

Paul

Like I said, you don't know me.
J.

 

[Matthias]

I know you.... will not answer....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

Paul

Hi Pierac.

I don’t know if Johann will answer or not, and I don’t speak for him.

Peter calls Jesus a man in this passage. I’ve spoken with thousands upon thousands of trinitarians over the years and have yet to meet one who has said otherwise. Maybe one day I will.

I’m interested in learning what you think. Where do you / we go from here?

 

[Johann]

Hi Pierac.

I don’t know if Johann will answer or not, and I don’t speak for him.

Peter calls Jesus a man in this passage. I’ve spoken with thousands upon thousands of trinitarians over the years and have yet to meet one who has said otherwise. Maybe one day I will.

I’m interested in learning what you think. Where do you / we go from here?

A question if I may.
Are you born from above? If yes, so am I.
why are you not interested in the doctrines of Christ and the Pauline epistles but harping on the Triune Godhead/theotes?
Why not talk about Christ and what He is doing through the Holy Spirit at the moment?
Not interested in the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord?


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


1Co_1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

J.

 

[Johann]

Notice, in the first few seconds, how he mentions that Christians believe Jesus is divine.

That's because that's how it's supposed to be if you're actually a Christian.

Those who passionately believe Jesus is not God have a very questionable faith and the spirit that fuels their rants is one of darkness.

"They know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in darkness ..." instead of in the true Light of Jesus Christ.
Psalms 82:5

Problem here is our bibles cannot be quoted as authoritative since all of these believe that our scriptures are fake, how are you going to fight the good warfare without the weapon?
J.

 

[Matthias]

A question if I may.
Are you born from above? If yes, so am I.
why are you not interested in the doctrines of Christ and the Pauline epistles but harping on the Triune Godhead/theotes?
Why not talk about Christ and what He is doing through the Holy Spirit at the moment?
Not interested in the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord?


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


1Co_1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

J.

Yes, and I’m keenly interested in all of those things. As you know, I am, among other things, a retired Christian pastor and college adjunct theology professor.

Why do I “harp” about the Trinity? That’s an unusual thing for a trinitarian to say. Even so,

(1) I meet people where they are; and
(2) it’s an occupational necessity.

If Christians and non-Christians didn’t talk about the Trinity then neither would I.

 

[Johann]

Yes, and I’m keenly interested in all of those things. As you know, I am, among other things, a retired Christian pastor and college adjunct theology professor.

Why do I “harp” about the Trinity? That’s an unusual thing for a trinitarian to say. Even so,

(1) I meet people where they are; and
(2) it’s an occupational necessity.

If Christians and non-Christians didn’t talk about the Trinity then neither would I.

So then can we still worship together and talk about Christ Jesus and what He is doing through the Holy Spirit to a lost and dying world?
J.

 

[GEN2REV]

Problem here is our bibles cannot be quoted as authoritative since all of these believe that our scriptures are fake, how are you going to fight the good warfare without the weapon?
J.

Simple.

All who believe Scripture is fake, ... are anything but Christians.

 

[GEN2REV]

WHO IS JESUS FOR DUMMIES
By Juan Baixeras

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will.
Isaiah 61:1 – "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD (YHWH) has anointed me."

Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,’…He (Jesus) said to them, ‘Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

Okay now, don’t panic, this is simple. Look at Isaiah 61:1, YHWH anoints someone other than YHWH. Jesus in Luke claims that he is that person whom YHWH has anointed. Next!

1 Cor. 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord (This Lord is not a translation of YHWH, it is kyrios i.e. master, king etc.) Jesus Christ."

It doesn’t get any easier than this. Who is the one God? The FATHER! That’s it, period! The Father is the only one who is considered God. Jesus is our Lord (master, king). You will always see that the only one who is referred to as God is the Father. From the passage above, do you honestly read that and come away with the fact that Jesus is the one God? It is obvious that the one Lord is not the one God. Only the Father is God.

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

So GEN2REV... who is the ONLY one who is referred to as God? That’s right, the Father. There is no way that in these sentences you can come out with the idea that Jesus is God. They always say, "peace from God AND, I repeat, AND the Lord Jesus Christ." They are separate individuals. Jesus Christ is not considered by any stretch of the imagination, "God" by these authors. If I said,

"Peace from John our president and the chief of staff Mike."

Is there anyway that you would read the verse above and come away thinking that Mike, the chief of staff is the president? No way! But wait, it gets even better.

In these next verses, Jesus, who Trinitarians claim is fully God at ALL times, has a God. How can this be? These must all be typos. No, all the Bibles in the world have been tampered with.

1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

These verses above are not profound theological statements. They are for the most part just greetings. No one has ever disputed these verses. Just read them! Then read them again! Then yell them at the top of your lungs because "Yes!" You too have been duped by this false, non-Biblical, contradictory and incomprehensible mumbo jumbo passed on as the Trinity.

The Messiah is supposed to have a God because he needs to be anointed by God in order to do wonders and signs on behalf of God. Let’s look at Micah 5:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:

Micah 5:3 – "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

The Christ will have a God? Yes! Who will it be? Look at the verse above, YHWH. Does Jesus know that he is supposed to have a God? Of course he knows! Look below, these verses are all Jesus speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

So Jesus did know that he has a God. As sure as bees buzz. Jesus really needed his God in order to resurrect.

Hebrews 13:20 – "May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors. The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?

So Jesus is not God, he is a man anointed by God? Are you sure about this? As sure as woodpeckers peck. How do you understand the following verses?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

If you chose answer 3, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don’t know. That must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn’t get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let’s see if your catching on.

1. Who did God raise? That’s right, this MAN!
2. Who raised this MAN? Bingo, God!

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1. Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2. Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you’re getting the hang of it.

1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.

2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "God."

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think I’ve got it now. He is a MAN anointed by God. Yessirree Bob! Hallelujah! So that’s what Peter was saying in Acts.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and power.

1.Who did God anoint? Jesus.

2.Who anointed Jesus? God.

Now other things are starting to make sense. Trinitarians claim that since Jesus is fully God at all times, that he is omniscient. That’s a big word. It means all knowing. It means Jesus knows everything about everything. But that’s not what these simple verses say. Revelation’s opening verse states;

If Jesus did not consider himself to be God, why should we? Jesus always pointed us to the one who is greater than he, The God of Abraham. Here is probably the simplest verse in the whole Bible on this matter.

Mark 10:18 – "Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

If you have trouble with this one, I do not think there is much else I can say. Does this sound to you like Jesus believes himself to be God?

The verses that we have covered are not verses that are difficult by any stretch of the word. They are not even disputed.
God bless you... GEN2REV... Perhaps you should actually read Gen 2 Rev before you make such childish comments...
Paul

Did you have a point with this 6-foot long post?

 

[Matthias]

So then can we still worship together …

Can we? I don’t have an issue with it but you have to keep in mind that I’m an ex-trinitarian. [I was raised Protestant (Southern Baptist). I married a Roman Catholic. From time to time I go to church, funerals and weddings with Roman Catholic and Protestant family members, friends and acquaintances.]

I’m neither Catholic nor Protestant - though I have some connection with the unitarian branch of the Anabaptist movement, the so-called “Radical Reformation” - and the Trinity isn’t my God. Would you be comfortable worshipping the God of trinitarianism while I’m worshipping the God of the Jews? [I have occasionally also attended synagogues and mosques with Jewish and Muslim friends and acquaintances. The tension in both religions over my presence is palpable. The Jews accept me as someone who worships their God, but reject me as someone who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised and raised up by our God. The Muslims accept me as a non-trinitarian Christian, but reject me as someone who worships the God of the Jews; I don’t worship Allah.]

In short, I would be worshipping one God and you would be worshipping another. Can you in good conscience do it? If not, then don’t.

…and talk about Christ Jesus and what He is doing through the Holy Spirit to a lost and dying world?
J.

I don’t see why not. What do you think?

 

[Johann]

Can we? I don’t have an issue with it but you have to keep in mind that I’m an ex-trinitarian. [I was raised Protestant (Southern Baptist). I married a Roman Catholic. From time to time I go to church, funerals and weddings with Roman Catholic and Protestant family members, friends and acquaintances.]

I’m neither Catholic nor Protestant - though I have some connection with the unitarian branch of the Anabaptist movement, the so-called “Radical Reformation” - and the Trinity isn’t my God. Would you be comfortable worshipping the God of trinitarianism while I’m worshipping the God of the Jews? [I have occasionally also attended synagogues and mosques with Jewish and Muslim friends and acquaintances. The tension in both religions over my presence is palpable. The Jews accept me as someone who worships their God, but reject me as someone who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised and raised up by our God. The Muslims accept me as a non-trinitarian, but reject me as someone who worships the God of the Jews; I don’t worship Allah.]

In short, I would be worshipping one God and you would be worshipping another. Can you in good conscience do it? If not, then don’t.



I don’t see why not.

Are you familiar with Orthodox Judaism?
J.

 

[Matthias]

Are you familiar with Orthodox Judaism?
J.

Yes. Are you familiar with Messianic Judaism?

 

[bbyrd009]

Worthless.

Right because:
1. We're already completely saved.
2. We've already received our glorious bodies impervious to temptation and sin.
3. We're already in heaven safe from all evil forever.

and we were doing so well…what gives

but ya that was weak youre right lol

 

[Cristo Rei]

Jews/Muslim

J.

I didn't have time to watch the video but the main reason I think that Jesus is the Son of God is because God said it himself
"This is my son"

The second reason is because Jesus said it himself
"I am the son of God"

The third reason is because Christ often speaks and prays to God

Three solid reasons that I'm still yet to hear a logical explanation for other that the obvious. Jesus is the Son of God just as Jesus said and just as God said

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Any emissary, that comes directly from heaven sent by God, is divine.
Def. of, from or like God or a God; providence (protective care of God) or God

Ex.33:18-21 context
v20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall NO MAN SEE ME, AND LIVE.

JN.14:17-20 context
v19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
v20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you..1 Tim 6:16

Jn.10:28-31 context
v.30.I and my Father are one.

Luke 11:11-14
v13. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much MORE shall YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him ?

1 Jn.5:5-8 context
v7. For there ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.
v8. And there are three that BEAR WITNESS in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


Jesus IS both divine and he is deity, for deity means having divine status or nature, God, the creator or supreme being. Genesis 1:26 tells us there was more than ONE at creation in the statement he made that Moses recorded," Let US make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS....... God also came down before sin entered the garden and talk with Adam & Eve in the cool of the day !

Jesus IS also the son of God, the only begotten. He is NOT a created being such as the angels are, nor is he just a man of flesh.
He became a man of flesh born of man from Mary's flesh, and son of God, born joined in the flesh by the Holy Spirit.

Seems to if you deny Jesus as God, then you deny salvation of God, bc it is in Jesus we have a propitiation for our sins. The penalty of sin is death, the 1st.and 2nd.death if one continues to deny Jesus. But by believing what God says in his word, and the name of his Son is the only way to gain an adoption and sonship with the Father.

If you deny the way that God has chosen in the agreement with his eternal Son to save mankind, then what have you ?
The law ? It is the law God by Moses to his chosen ppl, the 12 tribes of Israel. All would have to convert to Judasim and make sacrifice.

Accept Jesus Christ, the Messiah, God's only begotten Son sent from heaven by the Father that no man perish, for he is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE !

 

[Johann]

Yes. Are you familiar with Messianic Judaism?

Familiar with both sides
Do you have friends in the Messianic community?
J.

 

[Matthias]

Familiar with both sides
Do you have friends in the Messianic community?
J.

No. A few acquaintances.

 

[Pierac]

Did you have a point with this 6-foot long post?

Yes... my point is.... Jesus is not God.... Jesus is a Man anointed by GOD... thus His title Messiah/Christ. Jesus is the second Adam (1Co 15:45) created in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God...

You claim Jesus is not a man... but something different.... I say Believe Jesus when he tells you whom he is....
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

You post one liners like your beliefs are not affected by scripture.... So what's the point... Jesus tells you....
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I'm trying to help you...
Paul

 

[GEN2REV]

I didn't have time to watch the video but the main reason I think that Jesus is the Son of God is because God said it himself
"This is my son"

The second reason is because Jesus said it himself
"I am the son of God"

The third reason is because Christ often speaks and prays to God

Three solid reasons that I'm still yet to hear a logical explanation for other that the obvious. Jesus is the Son of God just as Jesus said and just as God said

If Jesus spoke statements as God and as a man, what is your case that only one of those is true?

You just simply refuse to see and accept the verses where He spoke as God?

That's throwing out half the evidence with which to consider in order to come to the truth of the matter.

Jesus said He was/is God many times, many ways. You can't hide, or remove, those verses in Scripture; all you can do is pretend they don't exist.