This is why most believe that Jesus is a Man/Son and not God.

[Johann]

Jews/Muslim

J.

 

[GEN2REV]

Notice, in the first few seconds, how he mentions that Christians believe Jesus is divine.

That's because that's how it's supposed to be if you're actually a Christian.

Those who passionately believe Jesus is not God have a very questionable faith and the spirit that fuels their rants is one of darkness.

"They know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in darkness ..." instead of in the true Light of Jesus Christ.
Psalms 82:5

 

[GEN2REV]

Great example of the usual debate.

Clueless: "Jesus never claimed anywhere to be God."

Christian: "He claimed it many times, many ways. Have you even read the New Testament?"

The bottom line is this: All those who claim Jesus is not God are not Christians. They are here only for the purpose of attacking the Gospel and spreading Abominable Lies.

To deny the divinity of Jesus is to deny Jesus Christ.

Period.

 

[Episkopos]

Great example of the usual debate.

Clueless: "Jesus never claimed anywhere to be God."

Christian: "He claimed it many times, many ways. Have you even read the New Testament?"

The bottom line is this: All those who claim Jesus is not God are not Christians. They are here only for the purpose of attacking the Gospel and spreading Abominable Lies.

To deny the divinity of Jesus is to deny Jesus Christ.

Period.

This is going too far the other way. Many of the early Jewish believers were Ebionites. Look them up. They championed the HUMANITY of Jesus by obeying His commands...to sell all and do as He did. The early believers had all things in common. They came to deny the divinity of Jesus in favour of doing as He said.

It's amazing that those who see Jesus as God will do FAR LESS (if anything at all) than these Ebionites to show their devotion to Christ (except maybe argue points of doctrinal preference).

Modern believers have a hard time with Jesus being human. As such they do not follow His example. They don't take Jesus seriously when He says..be perfect..and follow Me. Instead Jesus is just someone to believe in and accept, and worship...as if Jesus never told us anything to do. Jesus is seen as ONLY divine and un-followable in our daily affairs. An idol perhaps.

So we have a problem with balance.

Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. There's a conundrum. Almost all believers have an issue with either one aspect or the other. It is useless to condemn others when we have our own issues to deal with.

 

[APAK]

The so-called Christian in the top-right corner is fibbing through his teeth. Christ never said or there's nowhere in scripture that even suggests that Christ today co-occupies God the Father's throne. The expression for being seated at the right of God, his Father, means to be given power for a specific purpose by his Father only and therefore to continue in sharing the Father's divine power. The Son is ALWAYS subordinate to the Father. Today, Christ has life in himself because of his Father, and therefore he is considered a true deity of God although he is not divine from himself. He still is and will always be sharing the once true source of divinity, from his Father. So is Christ truly divine independent of his Father's influence today? No, he was not on earth and neither is he truly independently divine today.

And the Muslim in the bottom right corner is ignorant that Jesus in scripture is indeed called the Son of God, his Father.

Both are wrong. 0-0 a draw imo.

 

[Pearl]

The scriptures call BOTH God and Jesus King of kings and Lord of lords. If Jesus isn't God how can that be? That to me makes it obvious that Jesus is God the Son. There aren't two people with the same titles.

 

[GEN2REV]

This is going too far the other way. Many of the early Jewish believers were Ebionites. Look them up. They championed the HUMANITY of Jesus by obeying His commands...to sell all and do as He did. The early believers had all things in common. They came to deny the divinity of Jesus in favour of doing as He said.

How do you post something like this as if it's some sort of rock-solid evidence of anything? Did you live in that time?

Even if what you're claiming WERE true, it doesn't even touch the proof that we have in Scripture about Jesus, His claims and what His followers believed about Him.

Your lack of faith in His divinity is pandemic and spreading like wild fire today. You could not for one second prove in a court of law, using Scripture, that there is not ample evidence of Jesus being divine, and claiming to be many times, many ways.

Your case wouldn't last a day before being dismissed for gross lack of supporting evidence.

It's amazing that those who see Jesus as God will do FAR LESS (if anything at all) than these Ebionites to show their devotion to Christ (except maybe argue points of doctrinal preference).

You're another one here who seems to have a very insincere habit of making claims with zero data to support them.

What do you know of anyone who posts on a Chat Forum?

NOTHING.

Modern believers have a hard time with Jesus being human. As such they do not follow His example. They don't take Jesus seriously when He says..be perfect..and follow Me. Instead Jesus is just someone to believe in and accept, and worship...as if Jesus never told us anything to do. Jesus is seen as ONLY divine and un-followable in our daily affairs. An idol perhaps.

Total baseless horse manure.

So we have a problem with balance.

YOU have a problem with faith. Period. And that's a personal issue you need to take up with God.

Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. There's a conundrum. Almost all believers have an issue with either one aspect or the other. It is useless to condemn others when we have our own issues to deal with.

Believe Scripture and you won't have these issues. Try and think for yourself, because you obviously know more than God's Words, and you'll come up with the same lacking level of knowledge and wisdom on any matter.

 

[Pierac]

Been there done that...

A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

You really need to do some biblical studies...
Paul

 

[bbyrd009]

Great example of the usual debate.

Clueless: "Jesus never claimed anywhere to be God."

Christian: "He claimed it many times, many ways. Have you even read the New Testament?"

The bottom line is this: All those who claim Jesus is not God are not Christians. They are here only for the purpose of attacking the Gospel and spreading Abominable Lies.

To deny the divinity of Jesus is to deny Jesus Christ.

Period.

How do you post something like this as if it's some sort of rock-solid evidence of anything?

lol
so ok look idc if you believe Jesus is “God,” fine with me, but you might keep an open mind, as there are surely more steps on that ladder ok

Even if what you're claiming WERE true, it doesn't even touch the proof that we have in Scripture about Jesus, His claims and what His followers believed about Him.

Your lack of faith in His divinity is blah blah blah

But Yah said that you are Elohim too though, see, I said “you are Elohim” so i mean bam keep making empty professions if you like, but then maybe see Who says that he knows anything, does not yet know it as he ought

 

[bbyrd009]

And the Muslim in the bottom right corner is ignorant that Jesus in scripture is indeed called the Son of God

to be fair disciples said that of Him, but He never claimed this of Himself, so maybe a diff weight should be given?

 

[GEN2REV]

lol
so ok look idc if you believe Jesus is “God,” fine with me, but you might keep an open mind, as there are surely more steps on that ladder ok
But Yah said that you are Elohim too though, see, I said “you are Elohim” so i mean bam keep making empty professions if you like, but then maybe see Who says that he knows anything, does not yet know it as he ought

Worthless.

 

[Pierac]

Worthless.

WHO IS JESUS FOR DUMMIES
By Juan Baixeras

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will.
Isaiah 61:1 – "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD (YHWH) has anointed me."

Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,’…He (Jesus) said to them, ‘Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

Okay now, don’t panic, this is simple. Look at Isaiah 61:1, YHWH anoints someone other than YHWH. Jesus in Luke claims that he is that person whom YHWH has anointed. Next!

1 Cor. 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord (This Lord is not a translation of YHWH, it is kyrios i.e. master, king etc.) Jesus Christ."

It doesn’t get any easier than this. Who is the one God? The FATHER! That’s it, period! The Father is the only one who is considered God. Jesus is our Lord (master, king). You will always see that the only one who is referred to as God is the Father. From the passage above, do you honestly read that and come away with the fact that Jesus is the one God? It is obvious that the one Lord is not the one God. Only the Father is God.

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

So GEN2REV... who is the ONLY one who is referred to as God? That’s right, the Father. There is no way that in these sentences you can come out with the idea that Jesus is God. They always say, "peace from God AND, I repeat, AND the Lord Jesus Christ." They are separate individuals. Jesus Christ is not considered by any stretch of the imagination, "God" by these authors. If I said,

"Peace from John our president and the chief of staff Mike."

Is there anyway that you would read the verse above and come away thinking that Mike, the chief of staff is the president? No way! But wait, it gets even better.

In these next verses, Jesus, who Trinitarians claim is fully God at ALL times, has a God. How can this be? These must all be typos. No, all the Bibles in the world have been tampered with.

1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

These verses above are not profound theological statements. They are for the most part just greetings. No one has ever disputed these verses. Just read them! Then read them again! Then yell them at the top of your lungs because "Yes!" You too have been duped by this false, non-Biblical, contradictory and incomprehensible mumbo jumbo passed on as the Trinity.

The Messiah is supposed to have a God because he needs to be anointed by God in order to do wonders and signs on behalf of God. Let’s look at Micah 5:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:

Micah 5:3 – "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

The Christ will have a God? Yes! Who will it be? Look at the verse above, YHWH. Does Jesus know that he is supposed to have a God? Of course he knows! Look below, these verses are all Jesus speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

So Jesus did know that he has a God. As sure as bees buzz. Jesus really needed his God in order to resurrect.

Hebrews 13:20 – "May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors. The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?

So Jesus is not God, he is a man anointed by God? Are you sure about this? As sure as woodpeckers peck. How do you understand the following verses?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

If you chose answer 3, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don’t know. That must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn’t get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let’s see if your catching on.

1. Who did God raise? That’s right, this MAN!
2. Who raised this MAN? Bingo, God!

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1. Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2. Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you’re getting the hang of it.

1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.

2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "God."

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think I’ve got it now. He is a MAN anointed by God. Yessirree Bob! Hallelujah! So that’s what Peter was saying in Acts.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and power.

1.Who did God anoint? Jesus.

2.Who anointed Jesus? God.

Now other things are starting to make sense. Trinitarians claim that since Jesus is fully God at all times, that he is omniscient. That’s a big word. It means all knowing. It means Jesus knows everything about everything. But that’s not what these simple verses say. Revelation’s opening verse states;

If Jesus did not consider himself to be God, why should we? Jesus always pointed us to the one who is greater than he, The God of Abraham. Here is probably the simplest verse in the whole Bible on this matter.

Mark 10:18 – "Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

If you have trouble with this one, I do not think there is much else I can say. Does this sound to you like Jesus believes himself to be God?

The verses that we have covered are not verses that are difficult by any stretch of the word. They are not even disputed.
God bless you... GEN2REV... Perhaps you should actually read Gen 2 Rev before you make such childish comments...
Paul

 

[Matthias]

Jews/Muslim

J.

Jesus is a Jew.

 

[Johann]

WHO IS JESUS FOR DUMMIES
By Juan Baixeras

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will.
Isaiah 61:1 – "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD (YHWH) has anointed me."

Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,’…He (Jesus) said to them, ‘Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

Okay now, don’t panic, this is simple. Look at Isaiah 61:1, YHWH anoints someone other than YHWH. Jesus in Luke claims that he is that person whom YHWH has anointed. Next!

1 Cor. 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord (This Lord is not a translation of YHWH, it is kyrios i.e. master, king etc.) Jesus Christ."

It doesn’t get any easier than this. Who is the one God? The FATHER! That’s it, period! The Father is the only one who is considered God. Jesus is our Lord (master, king). You will always see that the only one who is referred to as God is the Father. From the passage above, do you honestly read that and come away with the fact that Jesus is the one God? It is obvious that the one Lord is not the one God. Only the Father is God.

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

So GEN2REV... who is the ONLY one who is referred to as God? That’s right, the Father. There is no way that in these sentences you can come out with the idea that Jesus is God. They always say, "peace from God AND, I repeat, AND the Lord Jesus Christ." They are separate individuals. Jesus Christ is not considered by any stretch of the imagination, "God" by these authors. If I said,

"Peace from John our president and the chief of staff Mike."

Is there anyway that you would read the verse above and come away thinking that Mike, the chief of staff is the president? No way! But wait, it gets even better.

In these next verses, Jesus, who Trinitarians claim is fully God at ALL times, has a God. How can this be? These must all be typos. No, all the Bibles in the world have been tampered with.

1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

These verses above are not profound theological statements. They are for the most part just greetings. No one has ever disputed these verses. Just read them! Then read them again! Then yell them at the top of your lungs because "Yes!" You too have been duped by this false, non-Biblical, contradictory and incomprehensible mumbo jumbo passed on as the Trinity.

The Messiah is supposed to have a God because he needs to be anointed by God in order to do wonders and signs on behalf of God. Let’s look at Micah 5:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:

Micah 5:3 – "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

The Christ will have a God? Yes! Who will it be? Look at the verse above, YHWH. Does Jesus know that he is supposed to have a God? Of course he knows! Look below, these verses are all Jesus speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

So Jesus did know that he has a God. As sure as bees buzz. Jesus really needed his God in order to resurrect.

Hebrews 13:20 – "May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors. The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?

So Jesus is not God, he is a man anointed by God? Are you sure about this? As sure as woodpeckers peck. How do you understand the following verses?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter in Acts 2:22?

1. A Godman
2. A God
3. A man

If you chose answer 3, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don’t know. That must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn’t get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let’s see if your catching on.

1. Who did God raise? That’s right, this MAN!
2. Who raised this MAN? Bingo, God!

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1. Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2. Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you’re getting the hang of it.

1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.

2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "God."

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think I’ve got it now. He is a MAN anointed by God. Yessirree Bob! Hallelujah! So that’s what Peter was saying in Acts.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and power.

1.Who did God anoint? Jesus.

2.Who anointed Jesus? God.

Now other things are starting to make sense. Trinitarians claim that since Jesus is fully God at all times, that he is omniscient. That’s a big word. It means all knowing. It means Jesus knows everything about everything. But that’s not what these simple verses say. Revelation’s opening verse states;

If Jesus did not consider himself to be God, why should we? Jesus always pointed us to the one who is greater than he, The God of Abraham. Here is probably the simplest verse in the whole Bible on this matter.

Mark 10:18 – "Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

If you have trouble with this one, I do not think there is much else I can say. Does this sound to you like Jesus believes himself to be God?

The verses that we have covered are not verses that are difficult by any stretch of the word. They are not even disputed.
God bless you... GEN2REV... Perhaps you should actually read Gen 2 Rev before you make such childish comments...
Paul

A long post, too bad you don't see that Christ Jesus is God, God with God.
J.

 

[Johann]

Jesus is a Jew.

..and the Son of God..and God with God.
J.

 

[Matthias]

..and the Son of God..and God with God.
J.

The God of the Jew isn’t the Trinity.

 

[APAK]

to be fair disciples said that of Him, but He never claimed this of Himself, so maybe a diff weight should be given?

I bet/beg to differ bb. He agreed with Peter....


Matt 16:15-17

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
(NIV)

 

[Johann]

And the Muslim in the bottom right corner is ignorant that Jesus in scripture is indeed called the Son of God, his Father.

Both are wrong. 0-0 a draw imo.

You are falling into the Modern Jewish propaganda from whence the Immams, and their propagandas.
I have found there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian belief.
J.

 

[Johann]

The God of the Jew isn’t the Trinity.

Plenty evidences, guess there is a middle wall of partition between the Trinnies and non-Trinnies
J.

 

[Matthias]

Plenty evidences, guess there is a middle wall of partition between the Trinnies and non-Trinnies
J.

Jesus is a Jew / even the Jew, if you will - a “non-Trinnie,” to use your nomenclature. His God is the God of the Jews, not the God of the “Trinnies”.

To put it simply, the God of Jesus is only one person, the Father.

Jesus isn’t a trinitarian; Jesus is a unitarian.