This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[WPM]

The Biblical and historical evidence is that when Jesus Returns, the earth will be regenerated and will become like the garden of Eden again.
The idea of the new heavens and earth coming at the Return is a contradiction of many scriptures:

Isaiah 49:19 The Lord did indeed make His Land waste and desolate. He razed it flat, but now the Land is too small for all its inhabitants. Those who caused its ruin are now far away.

Psalm 24:3 Lord: restore now what has been completely ruined, all the destruction that the enemy has brought upon Your sanctuary.

Isaiah 44:3a I shall pour down rain on the thirsty Land, showers onto the dry ground.

Isaiah 51:3 The Lord has comforted Zion, He will look with compassion on all her ruined houses. The desert will become like Eden, like the garden of the Lord.

There are no wicked left to overrun your supposed future millennial earth. They are destroyed with the brightness of His coming.

 

[quietthinker]

How about actually addressing the biblical evidence.

Evidence witnessing to truth is all around us yet who has eyes and ears to see and hear? It is often there in the least expected places.

 

[Phoneman777]

Zechariah 14.

You realize prophecy is conditional...which we learned from Jonah. God could not fulfill the prophecies of Zechariah toward Israel because THEY KILLED THE MESSIAH AND TO THIS DAY HAVE NOT REPENTED.

Isaiah 65. Revelation 20. In Matthew 25:31

All are a misapplication or violation of the chiasms.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, Daniel did not have to, nor did John. But John was present as a witness. We are not talking about a literal trial. John sent out the letters to churches, not a court room.

My point was misunderstanding the term vision. For all we know John could have been looking at a 777" inch TV screen set up by God Himself. That would still be a vision. It is in the word, television. But this is what Jesus said:

"Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true."

Certainly it does not make sense to say that John had to stay on the earth until the Second Coming, not that John would never die. What is in the word "tarry", that prevents John from being caught up and in time, to see and be witness to the Second Coming? And before John physically dies? The point was brought up and introduced in Scripture, that Jesus could will anything to happen, concerning John.

Elijah came and went, back and forth between earth and heaven. Why would the NT witness, John not mirror the OT witness, Elijah?

John wrote what he saw in a vision of the future, but the events hadn't happened yet. Just like the innumerable people standing on a sea of glass which hadn't happened yet.

 

[WPM]

Evidence witnessing to truth is all around us yet who has eyes and ears to see and hear? It is often there in the least expected places.

You seem incapable of carrying out a normal conversation. Not interested in the false advertising.

 

[quietthinker]

How about actually addressing the biblical evidence.

Evidence witnessing to truth is all around us yet who has eyes and ears to see and hear? It is often there in the least expected places.

You seem incapable of carrying out a normal conversation. Not interested in the false advertising.

didn't they say the same of Jesus?....so the question is, who has the deficit?

 

[Keraz]

There are no wicked left to overrun your supposed future millennial earth. They are destroyed with the brightness of His coming.

This is true, there will only be faithful believers to go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

But like the example of ancient Israel in the desert, people will fall away and eventually form their own principalities, especially those far away from Jerusalem.
So; by the time a thousand years has passed, there will be many who will be seduced by Satan, when he is released. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, Revelation 20:8, They will lay siege to Jerusalem and God will send fire to cremate them all. Rev 20:9-10

 

[jeffweeder]

This is true, there will only be faithful believers to go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

But like the example of ancient Israel in the desert, people will fall away and eventually form their own principalities, especially those far away from Jerusalem.
So; by the time a thousand years has passed, there will be many who will be seduced by Satan, when he is released. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, Revelation 20:8, They will lay siege to Jerusalem and God will send fire to cremate them all. Rev 20:9-10

The living and the dead in Christ are said to be with the Lord forevermore when he comes. That means they do not rebel, they inherit glory forevermore.

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].



They are the camp of the saints in your proposed Millennium, yet you have them coming from the 4 corners of the earth to surround themselves.

You are not making any sense.

 

[WPM]

This is true, there will only be faithful believers to go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

But like the example of ancient Israel in the desert, people will fall away and eventually form their own principalities, especially those far away from Jerusalem.
So; by the time a thousand years has passed, there will be many who will be seduced by Satan, when he is released. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, Revelation 20:8, They will lay siege to Jerusalem and God will send fire to cremate them all. Rev 20:9-10

But the righteous are all glorified when He comes in majesty and glory. The dead in Christ are caught up 1st and the living righteouss follow. There is no allowance for mortals or sinners on the new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Biblical and historical evidence is that when Jesus Returns, the earth will be regenerated and will become like the garden of Eden again.
The idea of the new heavens and earth coming at the Return is a contradiction of many scriptures:

How can the earth being regenerated at His return not be the new earth?

Isaiah 49:19 The Lord did indeed make His Land waste and desolate. He razed it flat, but now the Land is too small for all its inhabitants. Those who caused its ruin are now far away.

Psalm 24:3 Lord: restore now what has been completely ruined, all the destruction that the enemy has brought upon Your sanctuary.

Isaiah 44:3a I shall pour down rain on the thirsty Land, showers onto the dry ground.

Isaiah 51:3 The Lord has comforted Zion, He will look with compassion on all her ruined houses. The desert will become like Eden, like the garden of the Lord.

None of those verses have anything to do with Christ's return. You try to make every verse of Bible prophecy related to His return. This one does relate to His return, though:

2 Peter 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Which promise is this talking about? Peter was referring back to the promise he referenced earlier:

2 Peter 3:Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

He was talking about the promise of Christ's second coming/return. It is in keeping with that promise of His return that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth. He will return, burn up and regenerate the heavens and earth, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, and the result will be the new heavens and new earth which will fulfill the promise of His return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is true, there will only be faithful believers to go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

But like the example of ancient Israel in the desert, people will fall away and eventually form their own principalities, especially those far away from Jerusalem.
So; by the time a thousand years has passed, there will be many who will be seduced by Satan, when he is released. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, Revelation 20:8, They will lay siege to Jerusalem and God will send fire to cremate them all. Rev 20:9-10

You are contradicting what Jesus Himself taught. He taught that at His return those who inherit the kingdom will inherit "eternal life" (Matthew 25:31-46) at that time. You can't fall away after you inherit "eternal life".

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Truth7t7]

There are no wicked left to overrun your supposed future millennial earth. They are destroyed with the brightness of His coming.

The Man Of Sin Is Destroyed By The Lord's Brightness, The Wicked World Gets The Fire And Brimstone, Just Like Sodom And Gomorrah Did (Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is true, there will only be faithful believers to go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

But like the example of ancient Israel in the desert, people will fall away and eventually form their own principalities, especially those far away from Jerusalem.
So; by the time a thousand years has passed, there will be many who will be seduced by Satan, when he is released. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, Revelation 20:8, They will lay siege to Jerusalem and God will send fire to cremate them all. Rev 20:9-10

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium, this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Keraz]

The living and the dead in Christ are said to be with the Lord forevermore when he comes. That means they do not rebel, they inherit glory forevermore.

Revelation 20 sets out the way it will happen.
Just as those ancient Israelites did, who saw the power of God on Mt Sinai.

But the righteous are all glorified when He comes in majesty and glory. The dead in Christ are caught up 1st and the living righteouss follow. There is no allowance for mortals or sinners on the new earth.

Scripture simply does not say this. Jesus will Return to the existing earth and will rule it from Jerusalem for the next thousand years.
The only people raised will be the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4
There won't be sinners during the Millennium, until Satan is released, Revelation 20:7-9

How can the earth being regenerated at His return not be the new earth?

The Lord will send rain and the world will recover from the disasters of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Psalms 47 & 48

Which promise is this talking about? Peter was referring back to the promise he referenced earlier:

No he wasn't. 3 Peter 7-10, gave us a sequence of events; from the forthcoming Sixth Seal disaster, to the final NH,NE to come after the Millennium. As is plainly set out in Revelation 20.

You are contradicting what Jesus Himself taught. He taught that at His return those who inherit the kingdom will inherit "eternal life" (Matthew 25:31-46) at that time. You can't fall away after you inherit "eternal life".

Matthew 25:31-46 is again a sequence of events.
Thinking that the final Judgment comes at the Return, is a contradiction of much other scripture and denies Jesus His reward of being the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Rev 19:16

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus will Return to the existing earth and will rule it from Jerusalem for the next thousand years.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium, this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Lord will send rain and the world will recover from the disasters of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Psalms 47 & 48

LOL. There will be no recovering from what is described in this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

No mortal can survive everything on earth being destroyed by fire.

No he wasn't. 3 Peter 7-10, gave us a sequence of events; from the forthcoming Sixth Seal disaster, to the final NH,NE to come after the Millennium. As is plainly set out in Revelation 20.

Yes, he was. The promise referenced in verse 4 is the same promise referenced in verses 9 and 13. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise.

Matthew 25:31-46 is again a sequence of events.
Thinking that the final Judgment comes at the Return, is a contradiction of much other scripture and denies Jesus His reward of being the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Rev 19:16

What is the sequence of events there then? Do you agree the reference to His coming with the angels is a reference to His return? If so, do you agree that the sheep and goats (righteous and cursed) are gathered before Him at the same time with the goats being placed on His left and the sheep on His right?

 

[WPM]

Revelation 20 sets out the way it will happen.
Just as those ancient Israelites did, who saw the power of God on Mt Sinai.

Scripture simply does not say this. Jesus will Return to the existing earth and will rule it from Jerusalem for the next thousand years.
The only people raised will be the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4
There won't be sinners during the Millennium, until Satan is released, Revelation 20:7-9

The Lord will send rain and the world will recover from the disasters of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Psalms 47 & 48

No he wasn't. 3 Peter 7-10, gave us a sequence of events; from the forthcoming Sixth Seal disaster, to the final NH,NE to come after the Millennium. As is plainly set out in Revelation 20.

Matthew 25:31-46 is again a sequence of events.
Thinking that the final Judgment comes at the Return, is a contradiction of much other scripture and denies Jesus His reward of being the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Rev 19:16

You have nothing to bring to the table apart from your usual boring mantra: what saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20?

 

[quietthinker]

You have nothing to bring to the table apart from your usual boring mantra: what saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20?

I wouldn't say Revelation 20 is a boring mantra at all. I would say however it is misappropriated and conflated with other texts inappropriately.....ultimately resulting in out of context conclusions.

The thing is, this process is as old as time and unless there is self honesty (which is the springboard for good/ better conclusions) one continues in poor 'mathematics'. One can continue to their own hurt even while exuberantly claiming to be God's mouthpiece.

 

[WPM]

I wouldn't say Revelation 20 is a boring mantra at all. I would say however it is misappropriated and conflated with other texts inappropriately.....ultimately resulting in out of context conclusions.

The thing is, this process is as old as time and unless there is self honesty (which is the springboard for good/ better conclusions) one continues in poor 'mathematics'. One can continue to their own hurt even while exuberantly claiming to be God's mouthpiece.

The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation is by using other clear Scripture to assist us dissect it. Without this we could easily get entangled in all the symbolism and make Revelation say whatever we want it to say.

The Reformers introduced a very solid interpretative system that was based on the crucial principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture. They used this to dismantle Roman Catholic heresy. They required corroborative evidence to support their opinion of any given text. This was to prevent error and to aid our understanding of truth.

Corroboration is said to be “evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition.”

 

[Keraz]

You have nothing to bring to the table apart from your usual boring mantra: what saith Revelation 20? What saith Revelation 20?

Rev 20 says the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That Chapter describes the beginning and the ending of the thousand year period, from when Jesus returns, to when He hands the Kingdom back to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24
None of it is 'symbolic'.

AMill believers are the ones who say it doesn't mean what it says. To their discredit.