This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[Timtofly]

I agree it refers to His birth, but could also refer to the birth of Christianity, against which the devil came with violence to destroy as soon as Jesus left for heaven.

Well it certainly does not mean every single set of judgments in the book of Revelation start out, back in the first century.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It was referring to the birth of Jesus. John was not seeing the literal birth of Jesus as going back to the time it happened. It is an historical footnote, not a part of the chronological order of the tribulation.

It also refers to His bodily ascension to heaven. The point is that not all that is written about in the book is chronological from beginning to end. That is a fact. But one person here can't even acknowledge that what is written about in Revelation 12 does not follow what is written about at the end of Revelation 11 chronologically. Even you can see that.

 

[Taken]

This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil​

OP ^ Carnal nonsense.
Those IN Christ are not the wicked…DUH!

When the Lord Jesus RETURNS, (with Power) those Raptured UP to Him (by His Power) ARE WITH HIM FOREVER.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Phoneman777]

Only if it suits your eschatology.

Amil claim It is all gone, and the NHNE are instantly in place.

You claim no one can live on the earth for 1,000 years.

I am pointing out that the atmosphere is still there, and Jesus is still descending in the sky as promised in Acts 1.

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

There will still be clouds in the sky when Jesus returns. What is dissolved is the firmament God put in place, called heaven.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

There was water under the firmament and water above the firmament. How is there water above the firmament in today's topology? How far away is all that water, and why has no one found oceans of water above the firmament like there is under the firmament? So that which held all that water above us will dissolve. Nothing is said about the atmosphere of the earth itself, which is breathable, and not the firmament.

The firmament does not burn up, the works on earth do.


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The elements melting with fervent heat is not necessarily the same as wooden logs burning in a pit of fire. Peter said the firmament passes away with a loud bang. John said:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together."

So the firmament makes a loud sound and rolls up like a scroll that makes it look like it passed away. Many claim the entire universe burns up. That is not how it is worded. Passing away and being rolled up does not have to involve fire at all.

Does no one pay attention to the details, and only repeat the same "being burned up" point, because they are afraid to change what they were taught?

Melting with a fervent heat can be fire, but it can also be the elements dissolving into nothing which requires a lot of heat. Still all a part of the firmament and not the water below, nor the earth.

And the earth also, also does what? It never states the earth is melted. It never states the earth is burned up. It does not say the earth is dissolved nor rolled away like a scroll. If the earth is still here, and it is, then what happens to the earth? The works thereof are burned up. Now we see the cleansing fire.

Why does every one seem to apply the works being burned up back onto the firmament? Now you place the earth's breathable air back into the firmament itself. Now if you claim the earth is still here, it cannot be both not here and here at the same time.

Peter is either saying the earth and it's works are burned up and no more, or Peter is contrasting the earth and the firmament, where one is gone and the other, just the works are gone.

In the Greek it reads:

"Earth and the works in it not will be found."


It does not even mention fire. Yet all translations, including Young's literal were not even literal word for word translations. It can be assumed that since Peter was contrasting the Flood and water with the Second Coming and fire, that fire is the reason why the works are not found.

The question is still, is the earth even found? Some will say yes, and some will say no, to suit their eschatology. To be far, Peter goes on in verse 12 as a repeat, and does state:

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

This time the earth is left out of the picture. The word fire is in this verse. Yet that still does not mean we can create a whole doctrine around this set of 4 or 5 verses.

The earth will be desolate up until the battle of Armageddon. But the reign of Jesus on earth, starts out at the 6th Seal. After the battle of Armageddon, will be when there is a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65. Jesus does reign as King in Jerusalem for a thousand years. Jesus reigns while the earth is subdued, and then hands back a perfect creation at the end.

I would stick to what's translated from the Textus Receptus Greek (KJV, any non-Catholic or non-Alexandria Family MSS published in any language anywhere in the world before the 20th century) because Young's Literal, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc., are all garbage that's based on the corrupt Critical Text.

Isaiah says Jesus is coming with FIRE. The "like manner" in which Jesus comes is just that - in the manner Jesus comes which is down to Earth from His Father's kingdom. The words "like manner" have nothing to do with "environmental conditions" as Isaiah and Paul and Jeremiah and the rest all clearly prophesy.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well it certainly does not mean every single set of judgments in the book of Revelation start out, back in the first century.

Sure they did. The 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are PARALLEL prophecies that span the period between Christ's first coming and His Second Coming:

7 Churches - how the church would be impacted religiously
7 Seals - how the church would be impacted politically
7 Trumpets - how the church would be impacted militarily.

People think this is all future because "1/3 of the Earth is burned up" and I've heard silly Irvin Baxter say on his "endtime" show that a nuclear war will kill 1/3 of mankind.

He died seduced by Jesuit lies - Revelation is a SYMBOLIC book, and if you turn to the other pages of Scripture and allow them to interpret Revelation, you'll discover that "grass" and "trees" and the like refer to JEWS. Yes, a HUGE segment of the Jewish population was destroyed in the 1st century at the hands of Rome - the crucifixes outside of Jerusalem's wall were so numerous, historians say a man could hardly walk between them. It's not talking about the entire planet!

 

[WPM]

Sure they did. The 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are PARALLEL prophecies that span the period between Christ's first coming and His Second Coming:

7 Churches - how the church would be impacted religiously
7 Seals - how the church would be impacted politically
7 Trumpets - how the church would be impacted militarily.

People think this is all future because "1/3 of the Earth is burned up" and I've heard silly Irvin Baxter say on his "endtime" show that a nuclear war will kill 1/3 of mankind.

He died seduced by Jesuit lies - Revelation is a SYMBOLIC book, and if you turn to the other pages of Scripture and allow them to interpret Revelation, you'll discover that "grass" and "trees" and the like refer to JEWS. Yes, a HUGE segment of the Jewish population was destroyed in the 1st century at the hands of Rome - the crucifixes outside of Jerusalem's wall were so numerous, historians say a man could hardly walk between them. It's not talking about the entire planet!

Are you an Idealist?

 

[Phoneman777]

Are you an Idealist?

Protestant Historicist, which essentially says, "history parallels prophecy because - unlike the claims of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism - God has no blind spots".

 

[WPM]

Protestant Historicist, which essentially says, "history parallels prophecy because - unlike the claims of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism - God has no blind spots".

But you seem to take a recapitulation view of Revelation, which is not typical Historicism.

 

[Phoneman777]

But you seem to take a recapitulation view of Revelation, which is not typical Historicism.

According to the entitled Master's Thesis, "A Comparative Study to the Hermeneutical Approaches to the Seven Seals", Historicism says prophecy parallels history with predictions meeting fulfillment along a prophetic timeline that spans from the time of the prophet to the end of time, unlike Jesuit Preterism which has everything fulfilled in the 1st century or Jesuit Futurism which has everything meeting fulfillment at the end of time just before the coming of Jesus. Idealism says the symbolism is simply a metaphor for the conflict between good and evil. I'm a Protestant Historicist, but with a "Present Truth" fine-toothed comb.

Present Truth offers a perspective that is unwanted and rejected by most - the pre-advent Judgment. Most don't understand it, don't want to understand it, and are content with the "herd mentality" of Jesuit Futurism. However, the evidence is undeniable:

"Now of the things we have spoken of, here is the sum: WE HAVE SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST, A MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE WHICH THE LORD PITCHED AND NOT MAN".​

A study of the Old Testament priesthood offers a clear picture of Christ's intercessory role in the heavenly sanctuary. The key to understanding when the 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets begin to unfold is found in our High Priest's location in the heavenly sanctuary when they go forth, where He is either among the items of the Holy Place or in the Most Holy Place - the veil represents a precise point of chronological division on the prophetic timeline.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to the entitled Master's Thesis, "A Comparative Study to the Hermeneutical Approaches to the Seven Seals", Historicism says prophecy parallels history with predictions meeting fulfillment along a prophetic timeline that spans from the time of the prophet to the end of time, unlike Jesuit Preterism which has everything fulfilled in the 1st century or Jesuit Futurism which has everything meeting fulfillment at the end of time just before the coming of Jesus. Idealism says the symbolism is simply a metaphor for the conflict between good and evil. I'm a Protestant Historicist, but with a "Present Truth" fine-toothed comb.

Present Truth offers a perspective that is unwanted and rejected by most - the pre-advent Judgment. Most don't understand it, don't want to understand it, and are content with the "herd mentality" of Jesuit Futurism. However, the evidence is undeniable:

"Now of the things we have spoken of, here is the sum: WE HAVE SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST, A MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE WHICH THE LORD PITCHED AND NOT MAN".​

A study of the Old Testament priesthood offers a clear picture of Christ's intercessory role in the heavenly sanctuary. The key to understanding when the 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets begin to unfold is found in our High Priest's location in the heavenly sanctuary when they go forth, where He is either among the items of the Holy Place or in the Most Holy Place - the veil represents a precise point of chronological division on the prophetic timeline.

You didn't really address what he said, though. He said "But you seem to take a recapitulation view of Revelation, which is not typical Historicism.". Are you disagreeing with that and saying that recapitulation IS typical for historicism? It seems that typical historicism would interpret the book of Revelation in chronological order (generally speaking: not all of it, necessarily) rather than seeing recapitulation being used.

 

[Timtofly]

I would stick to what's translated from the Textus Receptus Greek (KJV, any non-Catholic or non-Alexandria Family MSS published in any language anywhere in the world before the 20th century) because Young's Literal, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc., are all garbage that's based on the corrupt Critical Text.

Isaiah says Jesus is coming with FIRE. The "like manner" in which Jesus comes is just that - in the manner Jesus comes which is down to Earth from His Father's kingdom. The words "like manner" have nothing to do with "environmental conditions" as Isaiah and Paul and Jeremiah and the rest all clearly prophesy.

Did I say the earth is not made desolate? No.

I said it is not left desolate for a thousand years, as you teach.

Jesus coming with fire does not mean Jesus continues to reign fire upon the earth for 1,000 years.

Isaiah 65 indicates a new heaven and earth during those 1,000 years, just like a new heaven and earth after the Flood when Noah stepped off the ark. The earth was made desolate by the Flood. The earth is not desolate till today. Nor was is still desolate a thousand years after Noah left the ark. God was preparing and changing the earth for Noah and his sons.

After the Second Coming, and after all the mess is cleaned up, the millennium will be a prepared and perfect place without sin, decay, and natural death. Death will be considered cursed or unnatural.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure they did. The 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are PARALLEL prophecies that span the period between Christ's first coming and His Second Coming:

7 Churches - how the church would be impacted religiously
7 Seals - how the church would be impacted politically
7 Trumpets - how the church would be impacted militarily.

People think this is all future because "1/3 of the Earth is burned up" and I've heard silly Irvin Baxter say on his "endtime" show that a nuclear war will kill 1/3 of mankind.

He died seduced by Jesuit lies - Revelation is a SYMBOLIC book, and if you turn to the other pages of Scripture and allow them to interpret Revelation, you'll discover that "grass" and "trees" and the like refer to JEWS. Yes, a HUGE segment of the Jewish population was destroyed in the 1st century at the hands of Rome - the crucifixes outside of Jerusalem's wall were so numerous, historians say a man could hardly walk between them. It's not talking about the entire planet!

Do you know the difference between a witness and a prophet?

Both terms are used to describe the book.

"Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

It is to be read as a prophesy. It was written as a direct witness of what would happen. You call what John saw a vision. It is the witness of Jesus Christ. If a witness got up on the stand and stated he had a vision of an accident, he would be dismissed, no? It was not a dream. His use of vision was that he saw with his eyes and even may have interacted to help rescue those inside the vehicle.

Being caught up in the Spirit does not mean we assume John was asleep somewhere dreaming. John was there in person and interacted with his vision writing down what he saw when it happened. People don't write in their dreams what they would send out as physical letters. What John wrote while in person was the same letter he sent to the churches. The part about the 7 churches was the present time in the first century. Parts were about the past, chapter 12. But John left the island and was a witness about the Second Coming events, not just dreamt them in a dream.

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

John did not dream he was told to come. He was no longer in the first century.

 

[Phoneman777]

You didn't really address what he said, though. He said "But you seem to take a recapitulation view of Revelation, which is not typical Historicism.". Are you disagreeing with that and saying that recapitulation IS typical for historicism? It seems that typical historicism would interpret the book of Revelation in chronological order (generally speaking: not all of it, necessarily) rather than seeing recapitulation being used.

You could say "Chiastic Structure" is recapitulation, however, the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets describe different experiences to which the church would be subject along the prophetic timeline between Christ's first and second coming.

As for the entire book, it's definitely one huge chiasm, which the climax is reached in chapter 12 followed by restatement of events accompanied with additional details.

 

[Phoneman777]

Did I say the earth is not made desolate? No.

I said it is not left desolate for a thousand years, as you teach.

It must remain desolate 1,000 years - because that's how long the separation is between the two resurrections.

We know this because the redeemed "lived and reigned with Christ 1,000 years" in the place He went to prepare for them WHICH IS NOT DOWN HERE, BUT UP THERE before returning for them in the Second Coming. What verses are you using to arrive at a conclusion different from this?

 

[Phoneman777]

Do you know the difference between a witness and a prophet?

Both terms are used to describe the book.

"Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

It is to be read as a prophesy. It was written as a direct witness of what would happen. You call what John saw a vision. It is the witness of Jesus Christ. If a witness got up on the stand and stated he had a vision of an accident, he would be dismissed, no? It was not a dream. His use of vision was that he saw with his eyes and even may have interacted to help rescue those inside the vehicle.

Being caught up in the Spirit does not mean we assume John was asleep somewhere dreaming. John was there in person and interacted with his vision writing down what he saw when it happened. People don't write in their dreams what they would send out as physical letters. What John wrote while in person was the same letter he sent to the churches. The part about the 7 churches was the present time in the first century. Parts were about the past, chapter 12. But John left the island and was a witness about the Second Coming events, not just dreamt them in a dream.

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

John did not dream he was told to come. He was no longer in the first century.

You don't have to time travel to see what God chooses to reveal about what the future holds, and you are every bit as much a "witness" to what He shows you in vision as is a person sitting on the witness stand in court.

 

[Timtofly]

It must remain desolate 1,000 years - because that's how long the separation is between the two resurrections.

We know this because the redeemed "lived and reigned with Christ 1,000 years" in the place He went to prepare for them WHICH IS NOT DOWN HERE, BUT UP THERE before returning for them in the Second Coming. What verses are you using to arrive at a conclusion different from this?

Zechariah 14. Isaiah 65. Revelation 20. In Matthew 25:31, Jesus is on the earth sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus is not waiting for the Second Coming to sit on a throne next to God in the heavenly. He has been in authority there, since the Cross. So the point in Matthew 25 is a throne on the earth, not in heaven. This throne and rule is in effect from the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet, when it will be declared that all the wicked have been removed from all nations, and now all nations belong to Christ the King as their only Sovereign. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the millennium starts. Jesus keeps reigning over all the nations for a thousand years.

Matthew 13:36-42 also points out the final harvest via the 7 Thunders is on the earth.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Once again, Jesus as King is the one going around talking to people on the earth. That is how seed is sown. Going out and meeting people face to face. Once the seed is sown and taken root, God knows who is redeemed and who is now a child of Satan. Like the sheep and goats were separated and removed from the earth, so will the wheat and the tares be removed by the angels on the earth. So why after cleaning up all the mess, setting up a throne, removing people to their eternal destinations, would Jesus as King not continue to rule till all of creation is made subject? 1 Corinthians 15:25-28

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The tribulation or final harvest is God restoring the earth to pre-adamic conditions prior to Adam's disobedience. That was the point of that chapter.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

All covers more than just humanity. Being made alive covers more than humanity's redemption. The whole of creation is under the bondage of sin and death. Ruling and reigning is with Christ the King on the earth. Subduing the earth was established in Genesis 1:28.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Heaven does not need to be brought under subjection. The earth is what is being filled and completed, ready to be handed back to God at the end of the Millennium.

No one seems to grasp that when Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1, that as God he entered eternity and was always Jesus both Christ and King. The place prepared was written about in Genesis 1. Paradise was started in Genesis 2. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, was the Word.

You all teach a pre-incarnate Jesus, that had fake wounds already in place, no? Do you not think that Jesus sat and talked with Abraham? This is what Jesus told them:

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus knew what would happen when He ascended back to the Father after His resurrection. That verse shows that Jesus always is. If you accept some pre-incarnate made up theology, why reject the real thing? Abraham walked with Jesus and saw the scars in His hands and feet, and the spear wound in His side. Abraham understood the death, burial, and resurrection. He was able to inform Isaac that if he died, God would resurrect him from the dead, because one day, one of his descendants would be God in human flesh. Abraham saw the time Jesus spent on the earth in the first century, because he saw the resurrected Jesus. Abraham saw the day of Jesus because Jesus showed him that day, when he visited Abraham in his tent. Not some pre-incarnate apparition.

Jesus was always preparing a place. Because Jesus always is, even though when he said those words, He had only been born, and baptized. He had yet to die on the Cross and rise again the 3rd day. Obviously the religious leaders did not accept what Jesus said. They tried to stone Him to death, then and there.

"Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

 

[Timtofly]

You don't have to time travel to see what God chooses to reveal about what the future holds, and you are every bit as much a "witness" to what He shows you in vision as is a person sitting on the witness stand in court.

No, Daniel did not have to, nor did John. But John was present as a witness. We are not talking about a literal trial. John sent out the letters to churches, not a court room.

My point was misunderstanding the term vision. For all we know John could have been looking at a 777" inch TV screen set up by God Himself. That would still be a vision. It is in the word, television. But this is what Jesus said:

"Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true."

Certainly it does not make sense to say that John had to stay on the earth until the Second Coming, not that John would never die. What is in the word "tarry", that prevents John from being caught up and in time, to see and be witness to the Second Coming? And before John physically dies? The point was brought up and introduced in Scripture, that Jesus could will anything to happen, concerning John.

Elijah came and went, back and forth between earth and heaven. Why would the NT witness, John not mirror the OT witness, Elijah?

 

[quietthinker]

This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come​

I've heard 'puff' the magic dragon lived by the sea' Revelation 12&13

 

[WPM]

This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come​

I've heard 'puff' the magic dragon lived by the sea' Revelation 12&13

How about actually addressing the biblical evidence.

 

[Keraz]

How about actually addressing the biblical evidence.

The Biblical and historical evidence is that when Jesus Returns, the earth will be regenerated and will become like the garden of Eden again.
The idea of the new heavens and earth coming at the Return is a contradiction of many scriptures:

Isaiah 49:19 The Lord did indeed make His Land waste and desolate. He razed it flat, but now the Land is too small for all its inhabitants. Those who caused its ruin are now far away.

Psalm 24:3 Lord: restore now what has been completely ruined, all the destruction that the enemy has brought upon Your sanctuary.

Isaiah 44:3a I shall pour down rain on the thirsty Land, showers onto the dry ground.

Isaiah 51:3 The Lord has comforted Zion, He will look with compassion on all her ruined houses. The desert will become like Eden, like the garden of the Lord.