Those who deny Eternal Security

[ReChoired]

age is irrelevant:

Truth. Even if error be ever so young or ever so hoary, error is never sanctified through time to become truth or whether it is just uttered in infancy and novelty. Thus those who attempt to draw the conversation away from the topic, to a non-sequitur, such as "age of a person", do so, because their own argument is failing, weak, without substance, and borders on being an ad hominem, a red-herring, &c.

 

[ReChoired]

I will ask you what I asked E~

Do you agree with this statement?

1Jn_5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.​

If so, I have a few questions. How does one get their name in the "book of life of the Lamb", for it is obvious some names are "not written" therein? Who then are those not found written in the Lamb's book of life, and how come they are not in it?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.​

Still awaiting for my questions to be answered on two counts now.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Salutations there....
Consider this. Peter and the other Apostles were not perfect, they made a lot mistakes and they were not good students. lol But in the conversation regarding how you can lose your salvation the topic gets outside the box because the scriptures truthfully do not explain it well. There is obviously a concern regarding Christians going to hell that runs through the NT. The scriptures as a whole are not about how sin affects non-Christians.

So Christians are going to sin and Christians can get forgiveness...the real kind...like Christ does not remember forgiven sins. And you are right we do not have a faith meter to see if some one believed enough. But that is irrelevant, salvation is not through our power. Once you are saved you are in the family of God. That part is for sure and certain. Now I quoted a verse from the OT "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” It is a good illustration of our relationship with sin. Sin can over come you and master you.

What kind of sin is that? For most of us our relationship with Christ is like a journey and along the way if we walk with Christ and do the work of the Father, just like any son, who works with his father, that relationship becomes very close. And when we stumble Christ is not there to kick us while we are down. He is going to pick us up and dust us off and tell us to march of smart...straighten up a fly right, as the saying goes.

Even if we go a little hog wild and do things we are not suppose to do, when we return He is like the Father with the prodigal son, He rejoices. But if we run off and make a life of it, that is were we get into trouble. It is the habitual sins that we do that does the greatest harm. Technically you have not lost your salvation, you are a son, standing before Christ on Judgement Day. And if sin has over come you and filled you, justice has to be done.

We all sin and as sons and daughters of God we are eligible for forgiveness. But you do not want to become sin. Don't you think it breaks His heart to pronounce judgement? The topic of sin is not that simple and I have a write up on it in Grailhunter's Corner. You want to understand what real sin is, because with all the man-made sins, life becomes a minefield of sins and people can get the feeling it is impossible not to sin. If you have a minefield full of real sins and fake sins, you are likely to step on a real sin trying to avoid a fake sin. A good example of that is judging people on fake sins, they are innocent and you are looking at a double edge sword and if you offend them and turn them away from Christianity, you might find yourself being fitted for a millstone.

The analogy of a child in a family, that if the child is disobedient he or she is not "fired" from the family. He or she is chastised. This is the same with believers. God does not "fire" us from the family if we fail to walk in the Spirit as we should. He chastises us. The Scripture says, "Whom the Lord loves, He chastises". As a father applies the board of education to the seat of knowledge of a disobedient child, so God applies the rod to us when we fall off the wagon of obedience.

For example, if a person is disobedient concerning the gifts of the Spirit, he misses out on having the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit working with him in his Christian service. He loses privileges in the Spirit. If a believer starts beating up his wife, then he is chastised by losing her through separation and divorce, or is arrested, brought before the Court and being placed on supervision with anger management training. A gay person may be chastised by receiving an associated disease like HIV, in the same way that a fornicator may contract an STD which would require having the embarrassment of going to the doctor and getting treatment. A believer who murders someone may end up with life in prison, and a thief may receive a large fine or time in prison. All these things are chastisement from the Lord to show that the Lord will discipline those who are disobedient by failing to walk in the Spirit.

But the unconverted sinner is not chastised in the same way. He lives by the law of cause and effect. What happens to him because of his sins is not to rehabilitate him but to show that he is a hopeless sinner on the broad road to hell. He cannot be disobedient in the way as a believer because he is not alive in the Spirit in the first place. His disobedience is to the gospel itself and the final punishment is eternity in hell.

Those who teach that believers can lose their salvation by disobedience don't know the Scriptures and the difference between the Lord's chastisement for believers, and final punishment for those who disobey the gospel of Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

@ReChoired, you might want to tone it down.

I find myself glazing over your posts because there is too much information to handle all at once.

 

[justbyfaith]

So Christians are going to sin

Not the born again kind (1 John 3:5-9).

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.

Even if we go a little hog wild and do things we are not suppose to do, when we return He is like the Father with the prodigal son, He rejoices. But if we run off and make a life of it, that is were we get into trouble. It is the habitual sins that we do that does the greatest harm. Technically you have not lost your salvation, you are a son, standing before Christ on Judgement Day.

The prodigal son was technically dead and lost (Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32).

 

[ReChoired]

@ReChoired, you might want to tone it down.

I find myself glazing over your posts because there is too much information to handle all at once.

It is, in effect, your loss. They are posted, and can be read at your leisure, taking all the time you need. If you do not take the time, it was never my fault in regards length. (besides which, they barely reach two pages in actual real world study) Even if a person chooses to not read the material in response, they can still attempt to answer so simple a few questions:

Those who deny Eternal Security

(one must wonder, do those who complain about length, ever actually read whole chapters of scripture any more, for often, the response is far shorter than the text or passage of a chapter of scripture. It must be nigh impossible for such persons to even attempt Psalms 119, in a sitting, or Jeremiah or Isaiah in a day, and no marvel that they sleep during 45 minutes of sermon and if it approach unto an actual hour or longer, then end up as Eutychus (dead), the real culprit:

)

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not the born again kind (1 John 3:5-9).

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.



The prodigal son was technically dead and lost (Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32).

But he was still the man's son. No matter how far a believer gets away from his former walk in the Spirit, he remains a son of God. If he never comes back to his walk in the Spirit his chastisement is that the locust has eaten up his best years when he could have had the blessing of the Lord resulting from walking in the Spirit. He might end up in glory, saved as of by fire, like a family who has lost all their possessions in a house fire and left with just the clothes they stand up in.

 

[justbyfaith]

(one must wonder, do those who complain about length, ever actually read whole chapters of scripture any more,)

The fact of the matter is that I spend most of my time reading entire books of scripture every day; and that this is why i don't have the time to read your posts; which, to me, frankly, are quite boring.

I skipped over them because I do not have the time to respond to all of it if I were to find something that I felt the need to respond to.

Just a word of advice....if you present your theology in smaller chunks, people will be more likely to read all of what you are saying.

Sometimes a person can say one thing with a large body of information; while another person can say many things with a smaller body of information. The more expert of people can do their convincing with a smaller body of information and don't need to overdo the length of what they are saying.

There are many people who have made the decision to use their time wisely and who will not take the time to read a lengthy treatise on something that is only saying one thing anyway. Once they get the message of what is being said, they will very usually stop reading because their time is precious to them.

 

[justbyfaith]

But he was still the man's son. No matter how far a believer gets away from his former walk in the Spirit, he remains a son of God. If he never comes back to his walk in the Spirit his chastisement is that the locust has eaten up his best years when he could have had the blessing of the Lord resulting from walking in the Spirit. He might end up in glory, saved as of by fire, like a family who has lost all their possessions in a house fire and left with just the clothes they stand up in.

If the prodigal son had died out in the pigpens, he would have died dead and lost (spiritually); and would have never come home to his father.

 

[farouk]

But he was still the man's son. No matter how far a believer gets away from his former walk in the Spirit, he remains a son of God. If he never comes back to his walk in the Spirit his chastisement is that the locust has eaten up his best years when he could have had the blessing of the Lord resulting from walking in the Spirit. He might end up in glory, saved as of by fire, like a family who has lost all their possessions in a house fire and left with just the clothes they stand up in.

@Paul Christensen The true believer can always cry, Abba, Father (Romans 8), right?

 

[ReChoired]

There are many people who have made the decision to use their time wisely

I think they have used their time scroogedly. Hope that was short enough.

 

[Grailhunter]

@ReChoired, you might want to tone it down.

I find myself glazing over your posts because there is too much information to handle all at once.

Read slow lol

 

[Grailhunter]

The analogy of a child in a family, that if the child is disobedient he or she is not "fired" from the family. He or she is chastised. This is the same with believers. God does not "fire" us from the family if we fail to walk in the Spirit as we should. He chastises us. The Scripture says, "Whom the Lord loves, He chastises". As a father applies the board of education to the seat of knowledge of a disobedient child, so God applies the rod to us when we fall off the wagon of obedience.

For example, if a person is disobedient concerning the gifts of the Spirit, he misses out on having the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit working with him in his Christian service. He loses privileges in the Spirit. If a believer starts beating up his wife, then he is chastised by losing her through separation and divorce, or is arrested, brought before the Court and being placed on supervision with anger management training. A gay person may be chastised by receiving an associated disease like HIV, in the same way that a fornicator may contract an STD which would require having the embarrassment of going to the doctor and getting treatment. A believer who murders someone may end up with life in prison, and a thief may receive a large fine or time in prison. All these things are chastisement from the Lord to show that the Lord will discipline those who are disobedient by failing to walk in the Spirit.

But the unconverted sinner is not chastised in the same way. He lives by the law of cause and effect. What happens to him because of his sins is not to rehabilitate him but to show that he is a hopeless sinner on the broad road to hell. He cannot be disobedient in the way as a believer because he is not alive in the Spirit in the first place. His disobedience is to the gospel itself and the final punishment is eternity in hell.

Those who teach that believers can lose their salvation by disobedience don't know the Scriptures and the difference between the Lord's chastisement for believers, and final punishment for those who disobey the gospel of Christ.

Well losing your salvation...it is not like you own it.
If gets very interesting to be polite. If your saying that you can do anything you want if you believe in Christ...have a blast with that. Because you get into some pretty weird theology. And issues that I very much disagree with. Christianity without morals or Christianity where morals is and options. My favorite is the one were if you do bad things then you were not really saved to begin with. Which tops the heap with thoughtless concepts.

 

[Grailhunter]

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.

I disagree.
If you say you are without sin....you are are liar.....where is that scripture lol

 

[Grailhunter]

The prodigal son was technically dead and lost

You so funny

 

[justbyfaith]

I disagree.
If you say you are without sin....you are are liar.....where is that scripture lol

1 John 1:8...

And it teaches not that if we say that we do no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us...

But that if we say that we have no sin...

Therefore it is speaking of indwelling sin and not practical sinning. Otherwise it is in contradiction to 1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 2:17 and a plethora of other verses...

Fact of the matter is, we all have indwelling sin as an element within us...however that can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14)...

 

[justbyfaith]

You so funny

What's so funny about bringing scripture to bear on the situation?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well losing your salvation...it is not like you own it.
If gets very interesting to be polite. If your saying that you can do anything you want if you believe in Christ...have a blast with that. Because you get into some pretty weird theology. And issues that I very much disagree with. Christianity without morals or Christianity where morals is and options. My favorite is the one were if you do bad things then you were not really saved to begin with. Which tops the heap with thoughtless concepts.

To say that a believer can do anything is to clearly oppose Paul's clear teaching that if we live in the Spirit we should walk in the Spirit and forsake the works of the flesh (listed in Galatians 5). Show me any professing believer who has a desire to go back into his past life before he received Christ, and I will show you an unconverted hypocrite. Genuine converts hate sin, especially in themselves. They see their own sinfulness as an unwelcome intrusion into their walk in the Spirit. They see their besetting sins as thorns in the flesh, and constantly pray for God to remove them. Often they have to put up with "My grace is sufficient for you" as their answer from God.

I don't know the type of Christians you seem to mix with, but all the Christians I know, have a very ambivalent attitude toward the works of the flesh. They would give their eye teeth to be totally free from them. The Scripture is very clear, that if a professing Christian is wilfully and habitually living in ways that are not consistent with holiness, then we are not to have any fellowship with them - not even to eat with them. In other words we are to keep well clear of "Christian" hypocrites so we are not affect by their corruption. We see the foreshadow of this with the strict rules in the Old Testament Levitical Law about touching anything unclean and how there is a whole lot of hoops to jump through to become clean again. The Scripture clearly said, "Don't touch the unclean thing".

But we don't shun the company of unconverted sinners. We have to have close contact with them in order for them to hear and believe the gospel. Jesus set the example for us in this. He often mixed with the type of people the Pharisees viewed as totally sinful, and they criticised Him for it.

But there is a major difference between a genuine believer who struggles with his developmental sanctification, and a total hypocrite. A genuine believer will freely acknowledge that he or she is a sinner who is trusting in Christ; but a hypocrite will give the appearance that he is more holy than the common herd and will appear super-spiritual in order to hide his hypocrisy.

 

[mailmandan]

Your idolatry to preserve OSAS is a disgrace to the grace of Christ Jesus. It is a mockery to all that is holy, righteous and true. Your wresting of scripture will destroy you even as Peter warned you about Paul, but you are not listening, and I see no evidence that you will ever listen. Your choices are taking you to a place you cannot return from. Repent while you can. The OSASer is refuted by the very texts they cited.

My idolatry to preserve OSAS? That is slander and your biased, flawed refutation is full of errors. It's you who is not listening and probably never will. You have no sufficient refutation and your judgmental, mean spirited and self righteous demeanor is uncalled for and is sickening to say the least. Its you who needs to repent while you can. I've noticed ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works also strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Now for those who have ears to hear. In regards to Hebrews 6:4-6, I commonly hear three different interpretations (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)

In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics*

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13) and do not merely taste into one Spirit.

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God infallibly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Show me any professing believer who has a desire to go back into his past life before he received Christ, and I will show you an unconverted hypocrite.

The scriptures show this statement to be false:

Luke 8:13 KJV
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

These who fall away are described in this manner:

2 Peter 2:20 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

How can someone be worse off if conversion never happens to begin with?

Once a person believes the gospel they are saved:

Luke 8:12 KJV
[12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.