Those who deny Eternal Security

[ReChoired]

My idolatry to preserve OSAS?

Yep. I didn't stutter, though I did repeat it.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Yes, but what do those two groups have to with the other group?

[1] Believers presently believing
[2] Those presently pretending to believe (Lord, Lord), the hypocrites (self deceived), while never believing
[3] Those who once believed and no longer believe, they are not pretending to believe anything (and cannot be renewed to believe)
[4] Those who never believed and do not presently pretend to believe (though they might come to belief)​

All you did was point out groups [1] and [2].

What I pointed out was groups [1], [3], and [4].

"The very verse you cite, shows the two groups:

[1] Heb 10:39 them that believe to the saving of the soul. [this is group [1]]

[2] Heb 10:39 them who draw back unto perdition; [this is group [3]]​

A person cannot be "drawn back unto" "perdition" unless they first left "perdition" and were drawn unto Christ Jesus through believeth. That "unto", "to" works both ways. It is the distance inbetween the beginning and the ending of faith.

Again, Hebrews 10 is not dealing with those who never believed, except when it refers to the "adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27), of which group is already lost never having left "perdition".

Paul is correct. The believer who continues in their belief will not draw back unto perdition, but the person who once believed and does not continue in their belief will do so. Two groups.

The OSASer is refuted by the very texts they cited." - Those who deny Eternal Security​

Group [4] was cited here, those who remained in Egypt, never placing the blood on the door-post:

"... You are self deceived. The entire context from Hebrews 1 itself, unto the passages in discussion are about the believers (those who believed and placed the blood of the lamb on the doorposts), not the non-believers (those who stayed in Egypt, never placing the blood of the lamb on the door posts). ..." - Those who deny Eternal Security
​

Why did you introduce a non-sequitur, by talking about Group [2]?

 

[mailmandan]

Yep. I didn't stutter, though I did repeat it.

Enough with the slander and let's just cut to the chase. Are you condemning me for being a OSAS believer? Do you believe that all believers in the OSAS camp will be condemned?

 

[mailmandan]

The scriptures show this statement to be false:

Luke 8:13 KJV
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?" I will explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, shallow temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't. *Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe (pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

These who fall away are described in this manner:

2 Peter 2:20 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the (corruption - Strongs #5356) that is in the world through lust" with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was never saved.

How can someone be worse off if conversion never happens to begin with?

Those who receive more light and reject this knowledge will be more accountable at the judgment. These Pharisees in Matthew 23:14 will be worse off at the judgment than other garden variety unbelievers -- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Once a person believes the gospel they are saved:

Luke 8:12 KJV
[12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Yes, once a person truly believes the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, they are saved. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Not to be confused with shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[mailmandan]

Enough with the slander and let's just cut to the chase. Are you condemning me for being a OSAS believer? Do you believe that all believers in the OSAS camp will be condemned?

Why the delayed answer? A simple YES or NO will suffice. I have another question for you. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? The answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.

 

[ReChoired]

Enough with the slander and let's just cut to the chase. Are you condemning me for being a OSAS believer? Do you believe that all believers in the OSAS camp will be condemned?

Why are you refusing to answer my questions, but expect me to answer all of yours? I even asked you twice now.

"I will ask you what I asked E~

Do you agree with this statement?

1Jn_5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.​

If so, I have a few questions. How does one get their name in the "book of life of the Lamb", for it is obvious some names are "not written" therein? Who then are those not found written in the Lamb's book of life, and how come they are not in it?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." - Those who deny Eternal Security​

Do you believe that all believers in the OSAS camp will be condemned?

No, why would you think to ask such a thing? Did I ever say such a thing? If not, and you have no evidence I ever (ever) did, why put the question forward?

Are you condemning me for being a OSAS believer?

Here is what the Bible says about actual "condemnation":

Joh_3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
​

Now, do you know what the Bible (KJB) says is "light" and "truth"?

 

[ReChoired]

Why the delayed answer?

I am on multiple forums, though I know you get me banned on others, like CChat (I swap between them, while uploading on at least 6 sites simultaneously, among other things, like video editing, etc.) But that doesn't matter - I always come back. Some sites I have been back so many times I lost count, like CForums and CatholicAnswersForums, &c. Oh, they try to keep me out, and have even drastically changed their rules and monitoring over the years just because of me (alone), and I know so, but none of it helps, I always am able to get back on, no matter if they block an entire continent of IP's, block all non standard emails, block a certain browser, style, block all &c. It's all easy to go around, having access to as many devices and computers around the world I need, from any location.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved."

The scriptures say when anyone believes they are saved:

Luke 8:12 KJV
[12]... lest they should believe and be saved.

@mailmandan, the scriptures have spoken in this matter; any explanations offered to refute this scripture is not wise.

 

[mailmandan]

Why are you refusing to answer my questions, but expect me to answer all of yours? I even asked you twice now.

I have no interest in answering your questions or having any further discussion with you if you judge me as condemned for being a OSAS believer. You referred to my OSAS belief as "idolatry" and a "disgrace to the grace of Christ Jesus," along with being a "mockery to all that is holy, righteous and true." You also accused me of wresting the scriptures and the implication was to my own destruction. You also said that my choices are taking me to a place that I cannot return from and that I need to repent while I still can. Those sound like strong words of condemnation to me. So just man up and answer YES or NO to my previous questions in post #262.

 

[mailmandan]

Because the scriptures say when anyone believes they are saved:

Luke 8:12 KJV
[12]... lest they should believe and be saved.

@mailmandan, the scriptures have spoken in this matter; any explanations offered to refute this scripture is not wise.

Not all belief is the same, as I thoroughly explained to you in post #263, but you obviously have your agenda and just don't have ears to hear.

 

[mailmandan]

I am on multiple forums, though I know you get me banned on others, like CChat (I swap between them, while uploading on at least 6 sites simultaneously, among other things, like video editing, etc.) But that doesn't matter - I always come back. Some sites I have been back so many times I lost count, like CForums and CatholicAnswersForums, &c. Oh, they try to keep me out, and have even drastically changed their rules and monitoring over the years just because of me (alone), and I know so, but none of it helps, I always am able to get back on, no matter if they block an entire continent of IP's, block all non standard emails, block a certain browser, style, block all &c. It's all easy to go around, having access to as many devices and computers around the world I need, from any location.

I had you banned on CChat? How do you know that I had you and others banned on that site? What was your avatar name on CChat? So after being banned from multiple Christian forum sites, you break the rules and come back anyway? You sound very proud of your deceptive measures, which is very telling.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

you obviously have your agenda and just don't have ears to hear.

I do have an agenda, as you do as well.

My agenda is to magnify and defend the word, your agenda is to defend Once Saved Always Saved.

The foundation of your argument is flawed; there’s no need to read a long drawn out explanation of a faulty statement. With all due respect.

 

[mailmandan]

I do have an agenda, as you do as well.

Your agenda is to attack OSAS and defend your flawed interpretation of the word, which results in "type 2 works salvation." Magnifying and defending the word is not what got you banned from CChat. Your true colors are obvious. With all due respect.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Magnifying and defending the word is not what got you banned from CChat

Yes it is.

I got banned because I accept the following scripture at face value:

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And furthermore one of your buddies who is in line with your doctrine got banned from that site for having a froward mouth (which he got away with for a long time because of favoritism); which OSAS produces in many of its followers.

I have nothing to hide and I am not ashamed of the word of God and will boldly proclaim it to people like you who wish to pervert the scriptures and shut down all opposition to your falsehood.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes it is.

I got banned because I accept the following scripture at face value:

1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And furthermore one of your buddies who is in line with your doctrine got banned from that site for having a froward mouth (which he got away with for a long time because of favoritism); which OSAS produces in many of its followers.

I have nothing to hide and I am not ashamed of the word of God and will boldly proclaim it to people like you who wish to pervert the scriptures and shut down all opposition to your falsehood.

So you were banned for promoting the heretical doctrine of sinless perfection. I remember you promoting that false doctrine on CChat. 1 John 3:9 does not promote sinless perfection of the flesh. Your arguments have been refuted multiple times, but you just don't have ears to hear. You have no room to talk about perverting the scriptures and once again, your true colors are obvious.

 

[ReChoired]

I have no interest in answering your questions

I noticed.

 

[ReChoired]

So after being banned from multiple Christian forum sites, you break the rules and come back anyway

Yep. Pharisaical rules, against Christ's command, to Go into all the world ...

When Paul was thrown out of a city, didn't he go right back in?

Act 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

Act 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
​

When Jesus was told to go away, didn't he come into Jerusalem anyway?

 

[mailmandan]

Yep. Pharisaical rules, against Christ's command, to Go into all the world ...

When Paul was thrown out of a city, didn't he go right back in?

Act 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

Act 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
​

When Jesus was told to go away, didn't he come into Jerusalem anyway?

You can try and justify yourself all you want but you broke the rules. Period. Jesus is God, but you are a deceiver.

 

[ReChoired]

...You sound very proud of your deceptive measures, which is very telling.

You can mislabel it whatever you want, that is your prerogative. I simply want you to know the utter futility of such a thing as attempting to ban me. I want you to know the utter futility of getting all of my posts deleted (which has happened on numerous occasions). I simply start over again (I lost count).

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
​

But they do not follow this counsel. Instead they follow the Emperor Frederick's edict and law of Padua, even as they did likewise for Johann Huss, and George Wishart and Tyndale, and so many others.

 

[ChristisGod]

I am on multiple forums, though I know you get me banned on others, like CChat (I swap between them, while uploading on at least 6 sites simultaneously, among other things, like video editing, etc.) But that doesn't matter - I always come back. Some sites I have been back so many times I lost count, like CForums and CatholicAnswersForums, &c. Oh, they try to keep me out, and have even drastically changed their rules and monitoring over the years just because of me (alone), and I know so, but none of it helps, I always am able to get back on, no matter if they block an entire continent of IP's, block all non standard emails, block a certain browser, style, block all &c. It's all easy to go around, having access to as many devices and computers around the world I need, from any location.

and you have just described an internet troll ...................

 

[ChristisGod]

You can mislabel it whatever you want, that is your prerogative. I simply want you to know the utter futility of such a thing as attempting to ban me. I want you to know the utter futility of getting all of my posts deleted (which has happened on numerous occasions). I simply start over again (I lost count).

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
​

But they do not follow this counsel. Instead they follow the Emperor Frederick's edict and law of Padua, even as they did likewise for Johann Huss, and George Wishart and Tyndale, and so many others.

What is essential to believe to become a born again follower of Jesus ?

What cannot be denied to be a born again believer in Jesus ?