Those who deny Eternal Security

[Grailhunter]

To say that a believer can do anything is to clearly oppose Paul's clear teaching that if we live in the Spirit we should walk in the Spirit and forsake the works of the flesh (listed in Galatians 5). Show me any professing believer who has a desire to go back into his past life before he received Christ, and I will show you an unconverted hypocrite. Genuine converts hate sin, especially in themselves. They see their own sinfulness as an unwelcome intrusion into their walk in the Spirit. They see their besetting sins as thorns in the flesh, and constantly pray for God to remove them. Often they have to put up with "My grace is sufficient for you" as their answer from God.

I don't know the type of Christians you seem to mix with, but all the Christians I know, have a very ambivalent attitude toward the works of the flesh. They would give their eye teeth to be totally free from them. The Scripture is very clear, that if a professing Christian is wilfully and habitually living in ways that are not consistent with holiness, then we are not to have any fellowship with them - not even to eat with them. In other words we are to keep well clear of "Christian" hypocrites so we are not affect by their corruption. We see the foreshadow of this with the strict rules in the Old Testament Levitical Law about touching anything unclean and how there is a whole lot of hoops to jump through to become clean again. The Scripture clearly said, "Don't touch the unclean thing".

But we don't shun the company of unconverted sinners. We have to have close contact with them in order for them to hear and believe the gospel. Jesus set the example for us in this. He often mixed with the type of people the Pharisees viewed as totally sinful, and they criticised Him for it.

But there is a major difference between a genuine believer who struggles with his developmental sanctification, and a total hypocrite. A genuine believer will freely acknowledge that he or she is a sinner who is trusting in Christ; but a hypocrite will give the appearance that he is more holy than the common herd and will appear super-spiritual in order to hide his hypocrisy.

No, I am saying, that you are suggesting that a Christian can do anything they want and still get to heaven. It sounds like you believe that Christianity only gives lip service to morals.

 

[ChristisGod]

Enough with the slander and let's just cut to the chase. Are you condemning me for being a OSAS believer? Do you believe that all believers in the OSAS camp will be condemned?

we will see if he faces the music with his next answers or continues to troll and only cut n paste from who knows where. Most trolls are plagiarists.

 

[ChristisGod]

@mailmandan is he on CARM ?

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan is he on CARM ?

Not sure. I left CARM years ago.

 

[Grailhunter]

What's so funny about bringing scripture to bear on the situation?

Bringing scripture to bear is not what is funny, it is what you think it means that is funny. It amazes me how people can read the most simple scriptures and come with such off the wall meanings. The story of the Prodigal Son has an important message, and you are not the first I have seen that has tried to drag it through la la land. The prodigal son is not about dead people or a dead person. It is a story that has real life applications, physical scenarios. Spiritual metaphor, yes you could say the son had lost his way, but even spiritually dead would be an incorrect understanding much less technically dead.

Maybe if you read it again...slowly

Prodigal Son
"And He said, “A man had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the estate that is coming to me.’ And so he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey to a distant country, and there he squandered his estate in wild living. Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began doing without. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed pigs. And he longed to have his fill of the carob pods that the pigs were eating, and no one was giving him anything. But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired laborers have more than enough bread, but I am dying here from hunger! I will set out and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired laborers.”’ So he set out and came to his father. But when he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, slaughter it, and let’s eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate “Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.’ But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him. But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you never gave me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you slaughtered the fattened calf for him.’ And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”

And I want to get back on the topic where you think you are sinless.

 

[ChristisGod]

mailmandan is he on CARM ?

Not sure. I left CARM years ago.

ok thanks as it was my first forum 20 plus years ago. still there

 

[Grailhunter]

Not the born again kind (1 John 3:5-9).

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.



The prodigal son was technically dead and lost (Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32).

↑
So Christians are going to sin
Not the born again kind (1 John 3:5-9).

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.

Again another "funny" statement. Truth is not a damnable heresy and false doctrine.
There is no human being that is sinless. If the religion was about being sinless and it was possible there would have been no need for the Son of God to be put to the cross.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Of course if a man is truly born again he becomes a new creature in Christ; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)). The old is the sinful lifestyle that we used to live; the new is the holy life that we now live in Christ; or which Christ lives in us and through us (Galatians 2:20).

So you agree that if we are truly born again, we cannot lose our salvation! Good OSAS!

Actually, you ought to take a wild look at Ephesians 5:30-32 (kjv) in comparison to 1 John 3:5.

Compare the concept that the Church and Christ are one as a husband and wife to "He was manifest to take away our sins and in Him is no sin". What does that have to do with us having two natures: one spiritual and the other flesh where sin dwells?

This reeks of gnosticism; a teaching which says that what we do in the flesh doesn't matter because our real self isn't our body but our spirit.

I never claimed that what we do in this life doesn't matter. DON'T ACCUSE ME FALSELY - OTHERWISE WE WILL NOT COMMUNICATE AT AT! The Holy Spirit sanctifies us, and in turn, as we grow in the knowledge of our Lord, it transforms our minds, which controls our flesh. Initially, as born again Christians, we don't immediately act 100% like Christ. He slowly transforms our behavior. We begin to hate sin, but must first remove the plank in our eyes before we try to remove the speck out of our brothers eye. We begin to practice what we learn. We don't get it all of a sudden, we mature. But God factors all this in, our black-sliding, failures, etc. He works in us to grow our patience, self control, faith, kindness, gentleness, joy and we grow in our peace and joy as well - it takes time. But He starts this process with the absolute intention of finishing it! OSAS
"Whosoever abides in Him does not sin! Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." 1 John3:6
Those who practice sin, who are slaves to sin are not His.
There are tares among the wheat, people who claim to be Christians yet walk their own paths and still remain on their own thrones. They do not understand. You know, like Obama, Biden, Pelosi, the Fake News ... many of them would claim to be Christian, yet seek to destroy, lie, steal, violate their oaths. They have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
As that chapter in Matthew also says. "...by their fruit you will know them!"
So never really had salvation to begin with, so never lost it!

 

[mailmandan]

ok thanks as it was my first forum 20 plus years ago. still there

BibleForums was my first forum 10 years ago.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This verse is misunderstood - often.
If you examine the context, you find out that Jesus is speaking to Jews, those who lived under the Law, who never came to Him. He did not have a relationship with Him ( "I never knew you"), and therefore did not love, act charitable to His own (Christians). They claimed to have prophesied on His name too.
So these are not born again Christians who then lost their salvation because they did not love their brothers and sisters.
I've been in the presence of six Rabbis for about am hour. I picked them up at the airport and transported them to the Fairfax district. That was a seriously cold, unfriendly group of gents. Wow, I had to speak to them and they grudgingly with their super spiritual arrogance spoke down to me, the lowly gentile van driver. No smiles, no warmth ... men of God. It was sad, these guys didn't know the joy of the Lord - they couldn't - they did not know Jesus. It will be these kind of "holy men" who will utter, "Lord, Lord, bla, bla, bla ..."
I transported another Rabbi by himself at another time who had the same cold, serious disposition. I started a conversation again and he talked with me. I couldn't help but asking why he seemed so sad, as if carrying heavy load: "Why don't you have the joy of the Lord?" He seemed squermish and uncomfortable as he searched for words. He said, "Women are sooo stupid! I'VE tried for my entire life to make my wife happy ... done everything for her and yota, yota yota ..." He just went on blaming his wife for his misery. He was about 75 years old. Wow.
So that was about 30 year ago. I would imagine that this Rabbi has pasted away and then met his Maker. What account did he give, what did he say and what did the Lord say to him?

That is true about the Jews, but the content is actually FRUIT and can apply to us.

So these are not born again Christians who then lost their salvation because they did not love their brothers and sisters.

This seems to be a dichotomy. How can one be truly born again and NOT love one another? Jesus said it is the world who hates us.

1 John 3:23

1 John 3:
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[ChristisGod]

BibleForums was my first forum 10 years ago.

I think I joined that one years ago but didn't post much and to be honest I have forgotten why after all this time has passed lol.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The verse is a single verse. You do not want to form a religious belief around one verse.

Of course not but your post reflects that, it was your argument against OSAS. You chose the passage and now of course you back peddle.

The point being that OSAS is not a functional concept in the New Testament.

It is a function of Christ! He promised eternal life if we believe in Him, follow him. He didn't make those promises with strings attached: "If you believe in Me you will have eternal life ... well, maybe ... it depends ... if you do this or don't that ..."
Our salvation is secure or else it is not salvation at all and then it wouldn't be a promise and a gift either if there is a maybe attached to it.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."Eph. 2:8-9

This verse claims that salvation is all God's work - not our work. And that includes after we are saved. Faith itself is a gift. Some have weak faith and some great - He portions it out as He wills. We participate by responding, obeying and abiding. But even all our good works are planned and empowered by Him. The Holy Spirit works through us to do good deeds.

The verse I quoted is a statement but He was not talking to Christians and in fact most of what Christ says in the Gospels is in the context of Christ (a Jew) talking to Jews about Judaism...not Christianity.

Matthew has a theme, it is a portrait of Christ, as the Messiah, the King of Kings, a descendant of David. It was written to the Jewish Christians and unbelieving Jews who had a conflict. Those unbelieving Jews, who practiced Law and the Prophets, who remain stubborn, will at their death meet their Messiah and they will get rejected.
The qualification of who this passage was written to lies not just that it is written to the Jews, but also in their response to the Lord: " Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?" Matthew 7:22
Those aren't gentile unbelievers. They never did those things nor claimed to do them, only the Jews did.

 

[DPMartin]

I see you have not studied the topic of hypocrisy and being a hypocrite.

Nowhere does scripture EVER imply its not WILFULL actions on the guilty party.

next.............................

there is the leasen of the lord washing the world of the feet of the aposles therefore that would include Peter

Have a HUGE problem to solve when it comes to the Apostle and leader of the Church Peter.

1- he denied Jesus 3 times
2- he ran from those who said he knew Jesus denying his relationship with Jesus
3- he lived a hypocritical life with the Jews and Gentiles after Pentecost
4- Paul confronts him to his face for being a hypocrite
5- Peter was a stumbling block for the weaker brother Barnabas and caused him to fall into sin as a hypocrite
6- Peter forced the gentiles with him to participate in his hypocrisy

See Galatians 2 for the details.

So according to their heretical teaching the Apostle Peter was not saved, lost his salvation and if he died was going to hell before Paul confronted Him with his sin.

hope this helps !!!

there is the lessen of the lord washing the world of the feet of the apostles, therefore that would include Peter. when coming to the Lord one is washed because God the Father sees you from where He is through His Beloved Son who is white as snow. but that doesn't mean you are white as snow. the improvements are a prosses that allow one to serve effectively. but the sinful nature is there until it returns to the ground, and the soul remains with God in God's Presence.

though you probably know this maybe it need be said because you didn't

 

[CharismaticLady]

mailmandan is he on CARM ?

Not sure. I left CARM years ago.

I had never heard of CARM so looked it up. What they say are "heresies" I take it this is a Calvinist organization?

 

[ChristisGod]

there is the leasen of the lord washing the world of the feet of the aposles therefore that would include Peter


there is the lessen of the lord washing the world of the feet of the apostles, therefore that would include Peter. when coming to the Lord one is washed because God the Father sees you from where He is through His Beloved Son who is white as snow. but that doesn't mean you are white as snow. the improvements are a prosses that allow one to serve effectively. but the sinful nature is there until it returns to the ground, and the soul remains with God in God's Presence.

though you probably know this maybe it need be said because you didn't

We are in agreement and that is a great lesson Jesus taught them before His passion. Thanks for bringing into the discussion.

 

[ChristisGod]

I had never heard of CARM so looked it up. What they say are "heresies" I take it this is a Calvinist organization?

no its no different than this forum its open discussion, apologetics, doctrine, fellowship online, prayer, evangelism, cults, world religions, etc................

you must live in an online bubble lol..................

 

[ReChoired]

I had never heard of CARM so looked it up. What they say are "heresies" I take it this is a Calvinist organization?

Matt Slick, runs his own 'cult-like' ministry, which claims to debunk other cults. His moderators, are as notorious as he is. Been on there a few times. Debated with him in open chat on the state of the dead. He insta-kicked me and perma-banned me ( , which didn't work). He didn't refute me. Been back a few times, but been awhile, as not much goes on there, except if one desires to bang their head against draconian moderation (who delete whole posts, and edit posts, without warning, or even saying it was edited or deleted).

 

[ChristisGod]

Matt Slick, runs his own 'cult-like' ministry, which claims to debunk other cults. His moderators, are as notorious as he is. Been on there a few times. Debated with him in open chat on the state of the dead. He insta-kicked me and perma-banned me ( , which didn't work). He didn't refute me. Been back a few times, but been awhile, as not much goes on there, except if one desires to bang their head against draconian moderation.

you can't hold a candle to anyone on that cite. no troll can which is why you get banned all of the time. all you do is cut n paste plagiarism.

Matt is a calvinist but there are 20 times more non calvinist members then are are calvinist members.

I know because I've been there over 20 years.

next fallacy ?

 

[CharismaticLady]

no its no different than this forum its open discussion, apologetics, doctrine, fellowship online, prayer, evangelism, cults, world religions, etc................

you must live in an online bubble lol..................

I didn't see any forums, just articles.

 

[ReChoired]

you can't hold a candle to anyone on that cite. no troll can which is why you get banned all of the time. all you do is cut n paste plagiarism.

In my up front and personal with Matt in open chat on the state of the dead, all I gave was scripture straight outta KJB. It's recorded in Heaven. I don't need your false testimony or witness.

He also refuses all the testimony on Michael archangel.