Those who deny Eternal Security

[ChristisGod]

You really won’t like CARM. They’re extremely “my way or the highway”.

Do you think that of me ?

But I will admit they are anti mormon for sure.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you think that of me ?

But I will admit they are anti mormon for sure.

You are an extremely duck for being in that crowd.

And don’t even get me started on the extremely low quality of how they address other faith groups (like my own).

 

[ChristisGod]

You are an extremely duck for being in that crowd.

And don’t even get me started on the extremely low quality of how they address other faith groups (like my own).

Agreed on that for the most part.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The sinless camp and the OSAS camp can throw scriptures at each other until the cows come home. All it means is that neither side understands

In my experience;

One side presents scripture.

The other side (Once Saved Always Saved) presents explanations why the scriptures don’t mean what they say.

Every traditional man-made organization has to include disclaimers with their “Bible teaching”. That’s how anyone should know right from the start that they are false and to avoid them (Romans 16:18). They will present enticing reasoning that appeals to your flesh (1 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Peter 2:18).

Proverbs 30:5-6 KJV
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. [6] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Reproofs using plain scripture are routinely glossed over, added to/subtracted from and practically ignored by Eternal Security adherents.

Reminds me of the passage that speaks of the ones having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2) no longer having the ability to be affected by plain scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

In my experience;

One side presents scripture.

The other side (Once Saved Always Saved) presents explanations why the scriptures don’t mean what they say.

Every traditional man-made organization has to include disclaimers with their “Bible teaching”. That’s how anyone should know right from the start that they are false and to avoid them (Romans 16:18). They will present enticing reasoning that appeals to your flesh (1 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Peter 2:18).

Proverbs 30:5-6 KJV
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. [6] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Reproofs using plain scripture are routinely glossed over, added to/subtracted from and practically ignored by Eternal Security adherents.

Reminds me of the passage that speaks of the ones having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2) no longer having the ability to be affected by plain scripture.

Well they do have a few and a wise man wonders why? Of course they have to stay out of Hebrews because that book will tear them up.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Romans 8:38-39
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Enoch111]

The other side (Once Saved Always Saved) presents explanations why the scriptures don’t mean what they say.

Since I quoted the exact words of Christ -- which needed no interpretation -- your comment here is TOTAL NONSENSE. Please go back and read the words of Christ and believe them. If you do not believe them, they you cannot really claim to be a believer. I could quote many more passages, but that would be a waste of time and effort for the naysayers.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The scriptures show this statement to be false:

Luke 8:13 KJV
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

These who fall away are described in this manner:

2 Peter 2:20 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

How can someone be worse off if conversion never happens to begin with?

Once a person believes the gospel they are saved:

Luke 8:12 KJV
[12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

You forgot (or did you?) to include 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

A person can believe from their minds but not go on to be genuinely converted. Joseph Alleine the Puritan evangelist wrote a book called "An Alarm to the Unconverted" which he gives an in-depth study of the difference between "getting religion" being a professing Christian, and being a genuinely converted believer in Christ.

Anyone can join a church, participate in all its activities, say they believe the gospel, and to all extent be as passionate, if not more, than the common church member, and yet be a hypocrite, associating with the church for just the outward appearance of religion instead of being truly born again of the Spirit of God.

It is a statistical fact that out of all the decisions made in Billy Graham crusades, less than 5% went on after the first year or two. The reason is that they never progressed beyond making a "decision" to pressing into God to make their calling and election sure. Saying a prayer at an altar does not save a person. Anyone can join a Christian church and have the outward appearance of piety, but as soon as problems and persecution come their way, they give it up and go back into the world. This is because, according to John, they were never really Christ's in the first place.

It is only those who seek the Lord with all their hearts, will genuinely find Him because He will reveal Himself only to those who mean business with Him and take the time and effort to totally establish themselves in the faith and seek to have the Holy Spirit do the work of true conversion to Christ in them.

Those are the ones who will go on for Christ come hell or high water, and will be prepared to die for their faith, as many actually have rather than deny Christ.

 

[Paul Christensen]

No, I am saying, that you are suggesting that a Christian can do anything they want and still get to heaven. It sounds like you believe that Christianity only gives lip service to morals.

I have never said that, because I don't believe it. The Scripture plainly says that without holiness no person will see the Lord. The word Antinomianism defines those who think they can do anything as long as they have faith. But Paul expressly said that as we live in the Spirit, we are to walk in the Spirit. There is the clear indication that a person walks in the flesh they are actually walking in darkness, and the Scripture says that the person who is in the flesh cannot please God.

I believe that the result and evidence of true conversion is a hunger and thirst for righteousness and holiness, and that true converts are strict in their conduct to ensure that everything they do reflects the fruit of the Spirit, having forsaken the works of the flesh. Therefore a true convert who lives a life of strict piety can have assurance of his eternal security.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You forgot (or did you?) to include 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

This scripture does not exclude those who were of us and fell away. Like those who are saved by belief and then in time of temptation fall away (Luke 8:13).

Those who fail to remain in the faith grounded and settled (Colossians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5).

 

[farouk]

This scripture does not exclude those who were of us and fell away. Like those who are saved by belief and then in time of temptation fall away (Luke 8:13).

Those who fail to remain in the faith grounded and settled (Colossians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5).

Those referred to were clearly never 'of us' in the first place.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life

The ones mentioned here are those who should also know that whoever is born of God does not sin (1 John 5:18). So those who should know this deny it by vain words and private interpretations; from them shall be taken away that which they think they have (Matthew 13:12).

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand

The ones who will never perish are those who hear his voice (verse 27 you left out), you know, like Jesus’ voice that taught about the falling away believers mentioned in Luke 8:13. But many claim this verse in vain; Because instead of hearing Christ’s voice, they analyze it and come up with nonsensical meanings to suit a fleshly need and make it of none effect to keep their (OSAS) tradition (Mark 7:13).

In order to never perish you must:

Repent and believe.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Allow to be smitten on both cheeks.

Allow to be defrauded.

Love your enemies.

And so on...

Hear Christ’s voice!

 

[Grailhunter]

I have never said that, because I don't believe it. The Scripture plainly says that without holiness no person will see the Lord. The word Antinomianism defines those who think they can do anything as long as they have faith. But Paul expressly said that as we live in the Spirit, we are to walk in the Spirit. There is the clear indication that a person walks in the flesh they are actually walking in darkness, and the Scripture says that the person who is in the flesh cannot please God.

I believe that the result and evidence of true conversion is a hunger and thirst for righteousness and holiness, and that true converts are strict in their conduct to ensure that everything they do reflects the fruit of the Spirit, having forsaken the works of the flesh. Therefore a true convert who lives a life of strict piety can have assurance of his eternal security.

So you are not OSAS...

 

[Grailhunter]

The ones mentioned here are those who should also know that whoever is born of God does not sin (1 John 5:18). So those who should know this deny it by vain words and private interpretations; from them shall be taken away that which they think they have (Matthew 13:12).

I keep saying and believe that each side can support their views. Why? The wise man asks why? If scriptures were bullets I could riddle the OSAS's with holes. But in the big picture it does not matter....Both sides have good valid scriptures...why? The scripture you presented can be questioned both ways. whoever is born of God does not sin....does not sin or cannot sin? Do you think for a second that Christians do not sin? Of course they do? Is salvation secure? Of course it is. Can a Christian do enough evil to find him or herself in Hell? Of course they can. But I doubt Yahweh would give His Son for a plan that did not have a high success rate.

 

[justbyfaith]

Genuine converts hate sin, especially in themselves. They see their own sinfulness as an unwelcome intrusion into their walk in the Spirit.

And therefore, the doctrine of entire sanctification is good news to them.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you were banned for promoting the heretical doctrine of sinless perfection.

"sinless perfection" is a misnomer that is applied to the doctrine of entire sanctification in order to create a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

In all reality, 1 John 1:8 does not say, "If we say that we do no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Read it again.

The doctrine of entire sanctification teaches us not that sin is eradicated from us when we receive that second blessing; it teaches us that it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) and therefore inept so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

We can indeed live in victory over (1 Corinthians 15:57) and freedom from (John 8:31-36) the practice of sinning (1 John 3:5-9, 1 John 2:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

And I want to get back on the topic where you think you are sinless.

I don't think I am sinless; I consider that if I am sanctified wholly, that sin is rendered dead within me (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over my behaviour.

The doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is a damnable heresy and false doctrine.

Again another "funny" statement. Truth is not a damnable heresy and false doctrine.
There is no human being that is sinless. If the religion was about being sinless and it was possible there would have been no need for the Son of God to be put to the cross.

Jesus died on the Cross to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). Not just from their penalty; but from the sins themselves (see, again, Titus 2:14).

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't think I am sinless; I consider that if I am sanctified wholly, that sin is rendered dead within me

Humor
So you have a sin proof vest?

Jesus died on the Cross to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). Not just from their penalty; but from the sins themselves (see, again,

His death on the cross did not prevent us from sinning. And all of the aspects of that is pretty much advanced theology. But in no way did His death on the cross prevent us from sinning. That is why the NT is full, I say full of warnings about Christians sinning and the ramifications of sinning.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again another "funny" statement. Truth is not a damnable heresy and false doctrine.

Of course the doctrine of the inevitability of sinning is not the truth and is therefore damnable heresy and false doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Humor
So you have a sin proof vest?



His death on the cross did not prevent us from sinning. And all of the aspects of that is pretty much advanced theology. But in no way did His death on the cross prevent us from sinning. That is why the NT is full, I say full of warnings about Christians sinning and the ramifications of sinning.

Jesus' shed blood sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

This means that our capacity to sin has been dealt with at the Cross.

Other scriptures to ponder (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24).

 

[justbyfaith]

So you agree that if we are truly born again, we cannot lose our salvation! Good OSAS!

More accurately POTS.

Compare the concept that the Church and Christ are one as a husband and wife to "He was manifest to take away our sins and in Him is no sin". What does that have to do with us having two natures: one spiritual and the other flesh where sin dwells?

The church and Christ are one flesh as husband and wife....I think you missed that part.