Those who deny Eternal Security

[Grailhunter]

esus' shed blood sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

This means that our capacity to sin has been dealt with at the Cross.

Other scriptures to ponder (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24).

And you think I do not know those scriptures...lol...You so funny.
The thing is I could counter every scripture you produce and the fact that you do not know that is the real problem. If you think you are immune to sin it is just sad.

Not wanting to over stepping truth, we can get forgiveness for our sins, but that does not mean that sin cannot over run us to the point that we stand before Christ at Judgement Day so full of sins that He has to pronounce judgement.

Are we seeing a new denomination in modern times? Our society has gotten way from discipline, from being responsible, and self accountability. The disrespect for law and order...people do not want to be held accountable for their actions. People do not want to be held accountable for their sins or the laws they break. It is part of the deterioration of society and this has creeped...crept its way into Christianity.

 

[justbyfaith]

The thing is I could counter every scripture you produce

By all means, go right ahead.

 

[Grailhunter]

By all means, go right ahead.

I think it as already been done, and for one I have done it several times. I have walked into a debate here and posted all the scriptures for each side, just to see what people would do, and they still do not catch on. I am not going to add to the ignorance.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think it as already been done, and for one I have done it several times. I have walked into a debate here and posted all the scriptures for each side, just to see what people would do, and they still do not catch on. I am not going to add to the ignorance.

If you were to answer my scripture with scripture of your own, you know that I would bring to bear on it the context of that scripture; both immediate and topical.

And you know that you would not win in such a war.

Therefore you will not even attempt to fight.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you were to answer my scripture with scripture of your own, you know that I would bring to bear on it the context of that scripture; both immediate and topical.

And you know that you would not win in such a war.

Therefore you will not even attempt to fight.

Wrong on all counts and not only that I know it does not matter what the Bible says to you. You are like so many that go to the Bible to prove your beliefs, instead of going to the Bible to understand the word of God and learn from it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Wrong on all counts and not only that I know it does not matter what the Bible says to you. You are like so many that go to the Bible to prove your beliefs, instead of going to the Bible to understand the word of God and learn from it.

That is also not true of me. I read the Bible in order to get my beliefs from it; not to read my own beliefs into what is written. If the latter were the real case, I would not read the Bible at all but would go with whatever I wanted to believe and simply believe what I wanted; as many non-believers seem to do.

As a matter of fact the reason why I can prove my beliefs from the Bible is because I got my beliefs from the Bible; if it were not so, I would not be able to prove my beliefs from the Bible because my beliefs would not be based on what it says.

 

[ChristisGod]

John tells us who the liar and deceiver is below:

1:8- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
1:10- If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us

summary: those who say they do not sin, have not sinned are without sin are deceived, the truth is not in them, they are liars and make God out to be a liar and the word is not in them.

hope tis helps !!!

 

[Grailhunter]

That is also not true of me. I read the Bible in order to get my beliefs from it; not to read my own beliefs into what is written. If the latter were the real case, I would not read the Bible at all but would go with whatever I wanted to believe and simply believe what I wanted; as many non-believers seem to do.

As a matter of fact the reason why I can prove my beliefs from the Bible is because I got my beliefs from the Bible; if it were not so, I would not be able to prove my beliefs from the Bible because my beliefs would not be based on what it says.

Do you think I am being mean to you? lol

"reason why I can prove my beliefs from the Bible is because I got my beliefs from the Bible;"

So does everyone else. Use both hands! Understanding is not finding scriptures that agree with your beliefs.

When someone gives you scriptures in a debate, what is your first thought? You are going to prove them wrong! Are going to get your scriptures and shoot it back at them. Both sides when you do that you are not debating with each other you are debating with God. Trying to prove God's scriptures wrong. Is it this type of debate that the KJV says is wrong

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, convetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers.

2nd Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wrath, strifes, backbiting, whispering, swelling, tumults:

When you see scriptures of a sizable numbers on both sides, be smart, figure out why. That is where the truth is.
When you see scriptures that go against the theme or grain of the NT as a whole, figure out why....you must hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ....are we going to make that into a doctrine?

 

[justbyfaith]

John tells us who the liar and deceiver is below:

1:8- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
1:10- If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us

summary: those who say they do not sin, have not sinned are without sin are deceived, the truth is not in them, they are liars and make God out to be a liar and the word is not in them.

hope tis helps !!!

Liar, liar, pants on fire...after all the times I have repeated the truth of the matter, and you still reject it in order that you might continue to live a lifestyle of sinning.

I am not without sin; but if I have been sanctified wholly, the element of sin has been rendered dead within me (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) and therefore inept, so that it no longer has any say over my behaviour (Romans 6:14).

And of course I have sinned (Before Christ and Before Sanctification).

Neither of these propositions means that I will necessarily sin in the present or the future.

Your interpretation creates a contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17...

I suppose that you have an answer for this now, since you were so bold to contradict it after I have set it forth as doctrine so many times.

So, by all means, give your answer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you think I am being mean to you? lol

"reason why I can prove my beliefs from the Bible is because I got my beliefs from the Bible;"

So does everyone else. Use both hands! Understanding is not finding scriptures that agree with your beliefs.

When someone gives you scriptures in a debate, what is your first thought? You are going to prove them wrong! Are going to get your scriptures and shoot it back at them. Both sides when you do that you are not debating with each other you are debating with God. Trying to prove God's scriptures wrong. Is it this type of debate that the KJV says is wrong

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, convetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers.

2nd Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wrath, strifes, backbiting, whispering, swelling, tumults:

When you see scriptures of a sizable numbers on both sides, be smart, figure out why. That is where the truth is.
When you see scriptures that go against the theme or grain of the NT as a whole, figure out why....you must hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ....are we going to make that into a doctrine?

Doesn't change the fact that when I do my Bible reading, I do so to get from the Lord what He wants me to believe.

And I also do not go on these boards merely to prove other people wrong.

If what they are saying goes against the teaching of the Bible, then they will be shown to be wrong.

But I also seek to bring reconciliation between scriptures that seem to be in contradiction to one another.

I may even be able to do it with your scriptures if you bring them in lesser volume so that I do not become overwhelmed with the weight of all the work that would be set before me...just a little bit at a time.

And as for hating your father or mother, the original Greek of that verse bears out that it means to love less...so it is saying that our love for the Lord ought to make our family love look like hatred because it is so intense.

 

[Grailhunter]

Doesn't change the fact that when I do my Bible reading, I do so to get from the Lord what He wants me to believe.

And I also do not go on these boards merely to prove other people wrong.

If what they are saying goes against the teaching of the Bible, then they will be shown to be wrong.

Where do you think they are getting their scriptures?

And as for hating your father or mother, the original Greek of that verse bears out that it means to love less...so it is saying that our love for the Lord ought to make our family love look like hatred because it is so intense.

We can get into the Greek or we can get into the translations. Find love less in any translation.

I may even be able to do it with your scriptures if you bring them in lesser volume so that I do not become overwhelmed with the weight of all the work that would be set before me...just a little bit at a time.

The fact that I have that many scriptures for both sides should give you a hint. I can equally debate both sides if I was silly enough to do that. With that many scriptures you need to be concerned where the truth is.

We should not be having this conversation. The smart conversion would what types of sins can lead to a Christian going to hell? We can agree that salvation as a whole is secure. And most Christians are not going to get into the type of sins that would cause them to find themselves in hell. And also we should be talking about the biblical sins as opposed to sins that men have made up over the last 2000 years.

 

[justbyfaith]

We should not be having this conversation.

Right....because it is preposterous to imply that there are any real contradictions in the Bible.

I will admit that there are many apparent ones...however that is the nature of what is written, so that the real student may come to better insights when they compare spiritual thing with spiritual thing (1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (kjv)).

 

[justbyfaith]

We can get into the Greek or we can get into the translations. Find love less in any translation.

Just looking at the same statement in a different gospel will be enough to show you that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Right....because it is preposterous to imply that there are any real contradictions in the Bible.

I will admit that there are many apparent ones...however that is the nature of what is written, so that the real student may come to better insights when they compare spiritual thing with spiritual thing (1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (kjv)).

There are contradictions but mostly apparent contradictions. The truth can be found and maybe that truth justifiably takes effort, diligence, and patience. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. One of the reason I call myself Grailhunter... seeking the treasure of truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Just looking at the same statement in a different gospel will be enough to show you that.

Find it in a translation.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are contradictions but mostly apparent contradictions.

Every "contradiction" is merely apparent.

 

[justbyfaith]

Find it in a translation.

Mat 10:37, He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

John tells us who the liar and deceiver is below:

1:8- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
1:10- If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us

Your understanding truly is lacking. The person who claims to have no sin before conversion is the liar.

1 John 1:8-9 KJV
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Once cleaned and made perfect by the blood of Christ we can be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 10:14) and become sinless (1 John 3:9).

And if this cleansed perfected saint defiles his garment in returning to sin willfully (Revelation 3:4; Hebrews 10:26), disobeying the commandments of God, and claims to still be saved, he is the liar:

1 John 2:4 KJV
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Grailhunter]

Mat 10:37, He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

lol Good try! Try to find love less for Luke 14:26

 

[ChristisGod]

Your understanding truly is lacking. The person who claims to have no sin before conversion is the liar.

1 John 1:8-9 KJV
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Once cleaned and made perfect by the blood of Christ we can be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 10:14) and become sinless (1 John 3:9).

And if this cleansed perfected saint defiles his garment in returning to sin willfully (Revelation 3:4; Hebrews 10:26), disobeying the commandments of God, and claims to still be saved, he is the liar:

1 John 2:4 KJV
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

you made that up.

there is no "before conversion" in the text.

so in reality its your understanding that is truly lacking, not mine.

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