Those who deny Eternal Security

[ChristisGod]

Actually, the names of the twelve (excluding Judas; whether his replacement was Matthias or Paul) are written on the foundations of the holy city (Revelation 21:14). I would think that this means that they will be living there, since they are thusly honoured, don't you think?

Why would you think Paul was one of the 12 or even an option ?

Paul would not have been qualified based on the apostles criteria in (Acts 1:21-22)

Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Now are you going to argue against the truth above because I pointed out your error or will you continue to believe in the teachings of men who think it was Paul ?

Or are you going to agree with Scripture that the 12th disciple that replaced judas was not Paul and was Matthias ?

 

[TheslightestID]

Do remind me of what your specific question is; I will try to help.

It's in post 455.

 

[farouk]

It's in post 455.

In post 455, are you referring to Romans 8.38-39? Jude 24?

 

[TheslightestID]

In post 455, are you referring to Romans 8.38-39? Jude 24?

im referring to the question in post 455, on the scripture/parable of the sower we were just discussing

 

[farouk]

im referring to the question in post 455, on the scripture/parable of the sower we were just discussing

Okay, thanks. I think you are referring to Matthew 23.20-21:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

I don't see that the person in view here ever had true eternal life. I see no true rootedness. I see no abiding faith that will withstand tribulation. I see no real eternal life that will withstand being offended outwardly. The joy mentioned in verse 21 is not a lasting joy; and can be assumed therefore not to be genuine, but superficial. With regard to what did the person fall away from, he was never anywhere genuinely rooted by faith in eternal life in the first place.

This is how I see the Lord Jesus' commentary on this part of the Parable of the Sower.

 

[TheslightestID]

Okay, thanks. I think you are referring to Matthew 23.20-21:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

I don't see that the person in view here ever had true eternal life. I see no true rootedness. I see no abiding faith that will withstand tribulation. I see no real eternal life that will withstand being offended outwardly. The joy mentioned in verse 21 is not a lasting joy; and can be assumed therefore not to be genuine, but superficial. With regard to what did the person fall away from, he was never anywhere genuinely rooted by faith in eternal life in the first place.

This is how I see the Lord Jesus' commentary on this part of the Parable of the Sower.

The fact you don't think he ever had eternal life is why I asked the question.

The verse follows, and I'll ask once more then give up, what did he "fall away" from?

Mathew 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Whether you think he was never saved to begin with or not doesnt matter here, I only need an answer to the question.

 

[farouk]

The fact you don't think he ever had eternal life is why I asked the question.

The verse follows, and I'll ask once more then give up, what did he "fall away" from?

Mathew 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Whether you think he was never saved to begin with or not doesnt matter here, I only need an answer to the question.

Profession in some way. The outward appearance of being a believer. The nominal, apparent identifying with the reality, but without evidently having it.

 

[TheslightestID]

Profession in some way. The outward appearance of being a believer. The nominal, apparent identifying with the reality, but without evidently having it.

Ok, its clear by your evasion of the question that you are completely aware he "fell away" from salvation. To answer it truthfully would mean admitting we can lose salvation, the very reason you won't answer no matter how many times I ask.

So my point has been made, and thanks for your patience.

 

[farouk]

Ok, its clear by your evasion of the question that you are completely aware he "fell away" from salvation. To answer it truthfully would mean admitting we can lose salvation, the very reason you won't answer no matter how many times I ask.

So my point has been made, and thanks for your patience.

I don't accept that he ever had salvation. What he had was outward and apparent, not inward and rooted in eternity and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Personal comments such as you made won't change anything.

 

[justbyfaith]

The contradiction didnt jump right out at me, could you please explain?

In John 6:47, the person who believes has everlasting life.

If his spiritual life ever comes to an end, it was not everlasting but temporal.

In Luke 8:13, the person who believes, believes for a while and then falls away.

I don't think that they continue to be saved after falling away.

Why would you think Paul was one of the 12 or even an option ?

Paul would not have been qualified based on the apostles criteria in (Acts 1:21-22)

Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Now are you going to argue against the truth above because I pointed out your error or will you continue to believe in the teachings of men who think it was Paul ?

Or are you going to agree with Scripture that the 12th disciple that replaced judas was not Paul and was Matthias ?

I see that you are just being contentious in order to be contentious. This is a peripheral issue; so peripheral that I'm not certain why I am even answering you.

The name on the 12th foundation might be Matthias and it might be Paul.

Paul was indeed an apostle (1 Corinthians 9:1-3); and it is also true that he wrote more than 2/3 of the New Testament.

Matthias has no such credential. He was merely chosen by lot. The disciples didn't take into account the reality that the apostle to replace Judas may not have been among them.

But it matters not to me if you want to continue to believe that Matthias' name is written on the 12th foundation. More power to you. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever; the answer is a matter of Bible trivia and also cannot be ascertained in any way, shape, or form.

Therefore, I'm not sure why you would even take the time to argue the point.

 

[Taken]

Read the last two words in that scripture, and tell me what you think he "fell away" from?

There is Scriptural teaching To Spread the Word of God.
There is Scriptural Teaching To Hear the Word of God.

The interesting thing about Spreading the Word of God...is it doesn't require a particular Venue.
Masterful Spreading of the Word of God...has been Sent to the Ears of people...who have never set foot in a Church...who only have attended Mosques, who follow Buddhism, who are in remote Jungles, whose Governments Oppress the Word of God.

Hearing the Word of God, can't be "unheard".
Merely "Hearing"...is called, being "enlightened"...also "tasting" the Word of God.

And FOR such "enlightment" and "tasting"...
The Lord "Gifts" that individual "With small Measures of FAITH".

That is a point. (Regarding that individual)...
Whereby...hearing, enlightenment, tasting, Faith, belief, Become the Primary Factors.

The Individual Continuing...increases this Factors.

The Individual Decreasing Continuance...decreases the Factors.

The Individual Adamantly Rejecting and Adamantly Discontinuing...completely STOPS the relevant Factors.

^ That Individual...HAS "fallen FROM FAITH".

Take Notice....
There was never a Factor of "Declaring" a Commitment of Belief...
Never a Factor of Repentance.

A Beginning of learning About something is not a commitment to partake in a commitment of something.

We learn About new gadgets, philosophies, science, offers etc. every day. Doesn't mean we commit to believing it, buying it, supporting it.

Falling away From Faith...leads to a conclusion, of Losing ones Salvation.

It is not a matter of Receiving Salvation and THEN losing Salvation.

The matter of Salvation already Belongs to every man. That was Jesus' Bought and Paid For Offering to the Whole World. Salvation IS EVERY man's TO TAKE.
Like anything Offered to a man Exclusively is HIS TO TAKE...if he doesn't Take it...he loses it.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Cooper]

In John 6:47, the person who believes has everlasting life.

If his spiritual life ever comes to an end, it was not everlasting but temporal.

In Luke 8:13, the person who believes, believes for a while and then falls away.

I don't think that they continue to be saved after falling away.



I see that you are just being contentious in order to be contentious. This is a peripheral issue; so peripheral that I'm not certain why I am even answering you.

The name on the 12th foundation might be Matthias and it might be Paul.

Paul was indeed an apostle (1 Corinthians 9:1-3); and it is also true that he wrote more than 2/3 of the New Testament.

Matthias has no such credential. He was merely chosen by lot. The disciples didn't take into account the reality that the apostle to replace Judas may not have been among them.

But it matters not to me if you want to continue to believe that Matthias' name is written on the 12th foundation. More power to you. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever; the answer is a matter of Bible trivia and also cannot be ascertained in any way, shape, or form.

Therefore, I'm not sure why you would even take the time to argue the point.

John 6:47. We have eternal life while ever we believe.

Eternal life is for the believer. You are right to say, "I don't think they continue to be saved after falling away."
.

 

[farouk]

There is Scriptural teaching To Spread the Word of God.
There is Scriptural Teaching To Hear the Word of God.

The interesting thing about Spreading the Word of God...is it doesn't require a particular Venue.
Masterful Spreading of the Word of God...has been Sent to the Ears of people...who have never set foot in a Church...who only have attended Mosques, who follow Buddhism, who are in remote Jungles, whose Governments Oppress the Word of God.

Hearing the Word of God, can't be "unheard".
Merely "Hearing"...is called, being "enlightened"...also "tasting" the Word of God.

And FOR such "enlightment" and "tasting"...
The Lord "Gifts" that individual "With small Measures of FAITH".

That is a point. (Regarding that individual)...
Whereby...hearing, enlightenment, tasting, Faith, belief, Become the Primary Factors.

The Individual Continuing...increases this Factors.

The Individual Decreasing Continuance...decreases the Factors.

The Individual Adamantly Rejecting and Adamantly Discontinuing...completely STOPS the relevant Factors.

^ That Individual...HAS "fallen FROM FAITH".

Take Notice....
There was never a Factor of "Declaring" a Commitment of Belief...
Never a Factor of Repentance.

A Beginning of learning About something is not a commitment to partake in a commitment of something.

We learn About new gadgets, philosophies, science, offers etc. every day. Doesn't mean we commit to believing it, buying it, supporting it.

Falling away From Faith...leads to a conclusion, of Losing ones Salvation.

It is not a matter of Receiving Salvation and THEN losing Salvation.

The matter of Salvation already Belongs to every man. That was Jesus' Bought and Paid For Offering to the Whole World. Salvation IS EVERY man's TO TAKE.
Like anything Offered to a man Exclusively is HIS TO TAKE...if he doesn't Take it...he loses it.

Glory to God,
Taken

@Taken Like you said, There needs to have been true repentance in the first place.

 

[Taken]

I don't accept that he ever had salvation.

Lack of Understanding...leads men to False conclusions.

The Truth can be Told An Other...but one can NOT make an Other understand.

Learning "About" Salvation is one thing.
"Accepting" the Lords Gift of Salvation is completely another Thing.

It is more than Obvious men are preaching Scriptural characters Received Salvation and then that characters Salvation was Revoked.

Seems they completely ignore...
THREE basic Biblical 101 Facts.

1) The Lord God is All Knowing...
(Really? God Saves a soul that will later Reject Him? Pfft.)

2) The Lord God PAID the Price for All men's Salvation....And Offered Salvation To ALL men.
(Really? Men are unaware a Free Offering is not stuffed down a person's throat? The Individual must reach out and TAKE the gift.
Basic Biblical Lesson 101...
Gen. 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3) Really? Hearing IS agreeing IS Committing?
Boy oh boy... would like to see a court case of advertisers and sales pitch men, winning a case because someone HEARD their Offer...yet Never committed. LOL

Salvation of ones soul...
Quickening of one spirit...
Is expressly Between one individual and the Lord God.

The Very ACT of The Lord God Saving a mans soul and quickening a mans spirit...is For the Express Intent of Changing and Dividing and Separating That man Once and Forever, From this World.
The Change and Separation is Exclusively Exacted by The Lord God and Exclusively irrevocable.

To remotely Imply any man has the Power to Fool God, or supersede Gods Power... is Scriptural Taught impossible.

No God DOES NOT give His Gift of soul salvation or spiritual Quickening to men who will ever Reject Him.

Jesus came to Divide...
Very handily effective For the Day He Separates the Divided WITH Him, from the Divided WITHOUT Him.

There is a very specific Scripture relating to men who succeed in "fooling" men, about their faith....and such a person's fate.

Matt 22:
[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into "outer darkness; "

That is not a death sentence ... as in LIFE removed from a soul, Returns TO God, and lifeless Body and soul destroyed.

Outer darkness is life remaining in the soul, forever separated from God...
Trying to pull a Cunning Trick on God... is sure failure and doom.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@Taken Like you said, There needs to have been true repentance in the first place.

Yes...and True Heart Belief.

Remember...the Carnal Mind is Against God.
Rom 8:7

The Carnal Mind Changes as often as the wind blows.

Glory to God,
His Way is THE WAY.

Taken

 

[mailmandan]

There was nothing that he was rooted in, in the first place, because he had 'no root'.

Exactly. To fall away from a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not to fall away from salvation. This kind of belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. People who "believe" in a shallow way and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

 

[Cooper]

Exactly. To fall away from a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not to fall away from salvation. This kind of belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. People who "believe" in a shallow way and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

All Christians begin as babes. It is a new birth. They need nurturing.
.

 

[mailmandan]

All Christians begin as babes. They need nurturing.
.

All Christians begin with root, not no root.

 

[Cooper]

All Christians begin with root, not no root.

Depravity of man
The reality of man’s absolute depravity is well developed in the Scriptures. An unregenerate person is said to be “darkened in their understanding” and “calloused” (Ephesians 4:18-19), “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17), “dead in [their] trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1), with a deceitful and desperately sick heart (Jeremiah 17:9) that suppresses the truth of God’s goodness, rule, and beauty (Romans 1:18). We are rebellious not only because of what we do, but also who we are. We are “by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3).
,

 

[ChristisGod]

In John 6:47, the person who believes has everlasting life.

If his spiritual life ever comes to an end, it was not everlasting but temporal.

In Luke 8:13, the person who believes, believes for a while and then falls away.

I don't think that they continue to be saved after falling away.



I see that you are just being contentious in order to be contentious. This is a peripheral issue; so peripheral that I'm not certain why I am even answering you.

The name on the 12th foundation might be Matthias and it might be Paul.

Paul was indeed an apostle (1 Corinthians 9:1-3); and it is also true that he wrote more than 2/3 of the New Testament.

Matthias has no such credential. He was merely chosen by lot. The disciples didn't take into account the reality that the apostle to replace Judas may not have been among them.

But it matters not to me if you want to continue to believe that Matthias' name is written on the 12th foundation. More power to you. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever; the answer is a matter of Bible trivia and also cannot be ascertained in any way, shape, or form.

Therefore, I'm not sure why you would even take the time to argue the point.

Read Acts 1:21-22 for the answer to who the 12th disciple is as Paul cannot meet the qualifications as the 12th.

He is still an Apostle but that is not the issue. The issue is RIGHTLY dividing the word of Truth which you are unwilling to do here because you are wrong and refuse to admit it because of pride. A humble person would read Acts 1:21-22 and the the disciples qualifications to replace judas and Paul does not meet those qualifications period. Matthias did meet those qualifications hence he was chosen as the one to replace judas.

hope this helps !!!