Those who deny Eternal Security

[TheslightestID]

The faith, there, is the religion of Christianity and an outward profession of adhering to the faith of Christianity.

Then you are saying they departed from the religion of Christianity and an outward profession of adhering to the faith of Christianity.

Now, will you please prove your claim? What reason have you to believe, that is the type faith, and it's not just faith period, as Christ presented it.

 

[Cooper]

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation, but that's not the case. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove they were previously born again.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. That sounds familiar.

Please explain how someone can de-PART from something they were never PART of.
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[mailmandan]

Please explain how someone can de-PART from something they were never PART of.
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You can be a part of something externally but not internally and then depart from it. See 1 John 2:19.

 

[TheslightestID]

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation, but that's not the case. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove they were previously born again.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. That sounds familiar.

Is that a conclusion you drew on your own, and if not, will you please show me the site you got it from?

a·pos·ta·sy
/əˈpästəsē/
noun

1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

How can we have "apostolic faith", when apostacy means we have no faith because we fell away from it? As a matter of fact to even use the term apostacy, is to say believers fall away from faith.

Also, you say, "in this context", so what in the context you speak of leads you to belive that is the proper definition of faith?

Seems to me the context is shown by what follows, as in, departing from faith in God, to "give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons"

It makes no sense we depart from a lack of faith to give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

 

[Cooper]

You can be a part of something externally but not internally and then depart from it. See 1 John 2:19.

So a mailman, who at heart is a comedian, went on the stage and never was a mailman?
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[mailmandan]

So a mailman, who at heart is a comedian, went on the stage and never was a mailman?
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You are either a mailman or you are not. There are no fake mailmen working at the post office, but it’s not hard to find fake/psuedo/nominal Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in numerous churches. Why are you so obsessed with this topic anyway?

 

[Cooper]

You are either a mailman or you are not. There are no fake mailmen working at the post office, but it’s not hard to find fake/psuedo/nominal Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in numerous churches. Why are you so obsessed with this topic anyway?

An ex mailman was still a mailman probably for many years. An ex Christian was still a Christian, probably for many years. Neither were fakes as some say.

A Christian is someone, as you know, who believes in, and follows Jesus Christ. If they stop believing they are a backslidden Christian.

OSAS denies this can happen. That is false. Jesus even told about new-born Christians who received the message with joy, but withered away due to lack of nourishment, not necessarily their fault.

Those who ignore, even deny the many scriptures that warn against the dangers of backsliding are false teachers.
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[mailmandan]

An ex mailman was still a mailman. An ex Christian was still a Christian.

A Christian is someone, as you know, who believes in, and follows Jesus Christ. If they stop believing they are a backslidden Christian.

OSAS denies this can happen. That is false. Jesus even told about new-born Christians who received the message with joy, but withered away due to lack of nourishment, not necessarily their fault.

Those who ignore, even deny the many scriptures that warn against the dangers of backsliding are false teachers.
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You just don’t get it. I already explained the parable of the sower multiple times, but you have your agenda.

 

[Cooper]

You just don’t get it. I already explained the parable of the sower multiple times, but you have your agenda.

You explain it wrong. And you deny Scripture that warns Christians against backsliding.
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[mailmandan]

You explain it wrong. And you deny Scripture that warns Christians against backsliding.
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I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[mailmandan]

Is that a conclusion you drew on your own, and if not, will you please show me the site you got it from?

a·pos·ta·sy
/əˈpästəsē/
noun

1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

How can we have "apostolic faith", when apostacy means we have no faith because we fell away from it? As a matter of fact to even use the term apostacy, is to say believers fall away from faith.

Also, you say, "in this context", so what in the context you speak of leads you to belive that is the proper definition of faith?

Seems to me the context is shown by what follows, as in, departing from faith in God, to "give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons"

It makes no sense we depart from a lack of faith to give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

I never said they had no type of faith whatsoever, but their faith was never firmly rooted and established in the truth of the gospel to begin with or else they would not have given heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons then permanently fall away. God’s saints are preserved forever in Jesus Christ (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) and will never perish or be snatched from the Lord’s hand. (John 10:27-29)

 

[Cooper]

I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Not my opinion, scripture only. OSAS deny all this and more:-

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

2 Peter 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam,

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Ezekiel 33:18 “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Hebrews 3:12-14,18 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Proverbs 21:16 “A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.”

Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Be warned.
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[marks]

An ex Christian

If you are speaking of a true born again Christian, there's no such thing as an ex-Christian. Once we've been united to the Source of Life, we receive eternal life from Him Who is alone immortal. When exactly does that life end?

Much love!

 

[mailmandan]

Not my opinion, scripture only. OSAS deny all this and more:-

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

2 Peter 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam,

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Ezekiel 33:18 “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Hebrews 3:12-14,18 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Proverbs 21:16 “A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.”

Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Be warned.
.

Typical passages of scripture that are taken out of context and used to uphold an inconclusive doctrine by those in the NOSAS camp. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic Church, I heard all the same arguments that you present for NOSAS, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightning

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you are saying they departed from the religion of Christianity and an outward profession of adhering to the faith of Christianity.

Now, will you please prove your claim? What reason have you to believe, that is the type faith, and it's not just faith period, as Christ presented it.

Because if someone has a genuine, living faith, they "have" everlasting life. If they ever departed from such faith, their life would not be everlasting but temporal from the getgo; and could never be defined as everlasting.

 

[TheslightestID]

I never said they had no type of faith whatsoever, but their faith was never firmly rooted and established in the truth of the gospel to begin with or else they would not have given heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons then permanently fall away. God’s saints are preserved forever in Jesus Christ (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) and will never perish or be snatched from the Lord’s hand. (John 10:27-29)

Where is your proof it was never firmly rooted?

And as I was fixing to post this, I came up with a duplicate of what I was just about to post?

Please explain how someone can de-PART from something they were never PART of.

Thanks, Cooper.

Dan, as you are making these things up, you need to create something that does not leave obvios tracks that lead to those things making no sense

And you didn't answer my question on if that was your own conclusion, so I think we can saftly assume it was not and it's something you picked up elsewhere. So, again, can you please tell me where you got that from?

QUOTE="mailmandan, post: 896316, member: 8550"]God’s saints are preserved forever in Jesus Christ (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) and will never perish or be snatched from the Lord’s hand.[/QUOTE]

Gods saints simply do not include anyone who has fallen away, so they are by no means preserved. Only God's true saints are preserved. How one can miss something so obvios can only be because they choose to see in the scripture, what they want to see, not the clear truth.

 

[TheslightestID]

Because if someone has a genuine, living faith, they "have" everlasting life. If they ever departed from such faith, their life would not be everlasting but temporal from the getgo; and could never be defined as everlasting.

Then you are saying they only had temporary faith from the get go, and if it was tempory, that naturally means they departed from it. They had it temporarily then left it. So by sheer mistake no doubt, you agree they departed their temporary faith, that was faith nonetheless. Or in short, they departed the faith.

Thank you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you are saying they only had temporary faith from the get go, and if it was tempory, that naturally means they departed from it. They had it temporarily then left it. So by sheer mistake no doubt, you agree they departed their temporary faith, that was faith nonetheless. Or in short, they departed the faith.

Thank you.

Those who depart from the faith depart from a mental assent that is nominal, shallow, lukewarm.

Those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) will not depart from the faith, impaho...they have everlasting life and by proxy, everlasting faith.

 

[TheslightestID]

Those who depart from the faith depart from a mental assent that is nominal, shallow, lukewarm.

Yet you admit they depart from the faith.

Thanks again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yet you admit they depart from the faith.

Thanks again.

"The faith" being the religion of Christianity; not actual salvation.

Hope this helps!