Those who deny Eternal Security

[TheslightestID]

"The faith" being the religion of Christianity; not actual salvation.

Hope this helps!

Are you making this up as you go?

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you making this up as you go?

No. I have considered these doctrines for quite some time.

 

[TheslightestID]

No. I have considered these doctrines for quite some time.

That wasn't what I was asking, are you making up what you're posting here as you go?

 

[TheslightestID]

The faith" being the religion of Christianity; not actual salvation.

What exactly in that scripture leads you to believe it was not saving faith they had? And why would and how could one depart a non saving faith as you are essentually claiming?

 

[Cooper]

Typical passages of scripture that are taken out of context and used to uphold an inconclusive doctrine by those in the NOSAS camp. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic Church, I heard all the same arguments that you present for NOSAS, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightning

I worry about those who are so flippant of Scripture, that they can disregard the dire warnings regarding the consequences of departing from the faith.
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[Cooper]

You are either a mailman or you are not. There are no fake mailmen working at the post office, but it’s not hard to find fake/psuedo/nominal Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in numerous churches. Why are you so obsessed with this topic anyway?

If only a mailman for a day, they were still a mailman.

You are right when you say there are no fake mailmen in the post office. There will not be any fake Christians in heaven either.

The nominal Christians you speak of can live the life you describe, because according to the OSAS doctrine they are always saved.

Satan loves that sort of teaching. It leads people right into his hands.

 

[Cooper]

"The faith" being the religion of Christianity; not actual salvation.

Hope this helps!

Are you suggesting Christians are not, saved?

What you say about the 'faith' could well be true of those who follow the lax faith of OSAS, that allows people to be nominal Christians. "Do not worry," they are told, "you are always saved, ignore the dire warnings about departing from the faith."

I can imagine the deceiver loving this.
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[justbyfaith]

That wasn't what I was asking, are you making up what you're posting here as you go?

And I said to you that my answer is no.

What don't you understand about that?

What exactly in that scripture leads you to believe it was not saving faith they had? And why would and how could one depart a non saving faith as you are essentually claiming?

It should be clear in all of scripture that those who have saving faith shall not come into condemnation but have passed from death unto everlasting life (John 5:24 (kjv)).

Are you suggesting Christians are not, saved?

Many who will say to Jesus on that day, Lord, Lord, will be told, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[TheslightestID]

And I said to you that my answer is no.

What don't you understand about that?

Your answer indicated you misunderstood.

It should be clear in all of scripture that those who have saving faith shall not come into condemnation but have passed from death unto everlasting life.

But that dodges both questions completly. Here, take a second look and read them carfully if you would please, and try to anwer them this time, if you just found you cannot answer, that's fine, just ignore the post.

What exactly in that scripture leads you to believe it was not saving faith they had? And why would and how could one depart a non saving faith as you are essentually claiming?

 

[justbyfaith]

But that dodges both questions completly.

No, it answers them. Saving faith results in everlasting life; therefore if their life does not last for ever, it was not saving faith. And it would be very easy for anyone to depart from a non-saving faith. It is a saving faith that a man will never depart from.

Now, I am kind of on the fence concerning this issue. Because I don't think that I have the answer to the question of whether mere mental assent is saving faith or non-saving faith. Because it is identified as faith in Luke 8:13; however, we know that salvation is by grace through faith. So, it appears that the people in Luke 8:13 are "saved" for a season. The question is, saved from what? Eternal damnation, or from sin for only a season of their lives?

See Matthew 1:21. Salvation is not from hell but from sin.

So then, someone may have a salvation that does not last for ever; because their faith is a mere mental assent; nominal, lukewarm, shallow. However, those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) have a faith that endures unto everlasting life (John 6:47)....that is life that will never come to an end...everlasting salvation from the moment of first faith (John 5:24 (kjv)).

 

[Cooper]

Many who will say to Jesus on that day, Lord, Lord, will be told, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

There you are! Look out the OSAS people, or you may hear the words from Jesus, "I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME."
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[Cooper]

JESUS WANTS OUR ALL
Mark 12:29-30
There is no room for those who believe they are always saved unless they give Him their ALL, ALL of the time.
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​

 

[mailmandan]

I worry about those who are so flippant of Scripture, that they can disregard the dire warnings regarding the consequences of departing from the faith..

I would be worried if I was considering departing from my faith, but that is unfathomable to me, so I'm not worried. It's people with shallow faith that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel to begin with who had better be worried! For genuine believers, fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

 

[mailmandan]

There you are! Look out the OSAS people, or you may hear the words from Jesus, "I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME."

You seem to enjoy implying that believers in the OSAS camp will most likely not be saved. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus NEVER knew these many false converts which means they were NEVER saved and look what they were trusting in for salvation in verse 22. It was not Christ alone, but WORKS.

 

[mailmandan]

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust" with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4). Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows to the conclusion they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13,14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God infallibly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as eternal IN-securists teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[Cooper]

I would be worried if I was considering departing from my faith, but that is unfathomable to me, so I'm not worried. It's people with shallow faith that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel to begin with who had better be worried! For genuine believers, fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

The message I get from the OSAS people, is that regardless of the life they live, they are always saved. Well, if you think you can live a life that is not pleasing to God, and still hear him say, "well done my good and faithful servant" you need to think again. I cannot be bothered to read your other spin doctor posts.

The excuse made by the OSAS people is that the backslider "never believed."
IF THEY NEVER BELIEVED THEY CANNOT BACKSLIDE.
I have never read such pure unadulterated nonsense in all my life, but thank you for publicity demonstrating the foolishness of your cult.
.

 

[mailmandan]

The message I get from the OSAS people, is that regardless of the life they live, they are always saved. Well, if you think you can live a life that is not pleasing to God, and still hear him say, "well done my good and faithful servant" you need to think again.

I cannot be bothered to read your other spin doctor posts. The excuse made by the OSAS people is that the backslider "never believed." IF THEY NEVER BELIEVED THEY CANNOT BACKSLIDE. I have never read such pure unadulterated nonsense in all my life, but thank you for publicity demonstrating the foolishness of your cult.

Thank you for demonstrating your closed mind and biased agenda.

 

[Cooper]

Thank you for demonstrating your closed mind and biased agenda.

Goodbye.