Those who deny Eternal Security

[justbyfaith]

Hebrews 10:26 refutes this.

Of course, willful sins are the exception to the rule.

It is past, present, and future sins that are ignorant and unintentional that are obviously covered by the blood before they are committed.

 

[Cooper]

Where you are erring is in thinking he took your future sins away.

Scripture 101 (Romans 3:25; 2 Peter 1:9; Hebrews 10:26).

Good teaching, and something for the OSAS people to consider.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all share the same divine attributes of God- all the Omni's, all the time 24/7- no exceptions.

Jesus is come in a finite body of human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7) and is therefore not Omnipresent as the "Son". He is Omnipresent as the Father and as the Spirit, however.

It is also written (Mark 13:32) that the Son does not know the hour of His return. So that means that Jesus is not Omniscient as the "Son."

Now, Jesus was not Omnipotent when He walked the earth, but completely relied on the Father to do the miracles that He did...this is evident in that in Matthew 28:18, Jesus says that after His resurrection, all power was given to Him in heaven and earth. If it was given to Him at the resurrection, that means He did not have it before.

Kenosis theory, therefore, is not heresy. For it is substantiated by Philippians 2:1-11 and a number of other passages.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Where you are erring is in thinking he took your future sins away.

Scripture 101 (Romans 3:25; 2 Peter 1:9; Hebrews 10:26).

How many of our sins were “ in the future “ when Jesus paid for them on the Cross.....if you answered “ ALL of them”...... go to the head of the class...

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It is expedient to also heed the word “terror” used in regards to the judgment we will face:

2 Corinthians 5
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. [11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men

Paul was trying to persuade men to be saved:

Acts 18
[4] And [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Be persuaded by scripture, not the vain speeches of men who twist the scriptures to suit their fleshy desires.

The need for “ Terror” vanishes for those that obey God and follow his Marching Orders . What might those be? Read Hebrews 3 and 4.......REST in the Gospel.....That us the ULTIMATE Goal of Christianity....why fear God when the only thing those that are “ Obedient to the Gospel “ are going to Hear is “ Well Done, good and faithful servant !”
You guys filled with fear have good reason to “ BE” fearful.....if you don’t put every single ounce of your Faith in the Finished Work Of The Cross Plus NOTHING , according to God in Hebrews , you are Guilty Of “ Disobedience” and “ UNBELIEF” —— you had BETTER be scared! Jesus called His Followers, “ Friends”....... friends are not afraid of other friends....

 

[Cooper]

Jesus called His Followers, “ Friends”....... friends are not afraid of other friends....

Friends fall out and go their separate ways.
.

 

[ChristisGod]

Kenosis theory, therefore, is not heresy. For it is substantiated by Philippians 2:1-11 and a number of other passages.

its heresy and false teaching as is your oneness heresy that the Father is the Son/Son is the Father.

Your above confession it makes you a non trinitarian for the Trinity did not exist for 33 years while Jesus walked this earth. If Jesus did not have the exact same attributes as the Father and the Holy Spirit then by default He was not God.

Trinity 101- you failed. Scripture condemns such heresy as do the Creeds.

The term kenosis refers to the doctrine of Christ’s “self-emptying” in His incarnation. The word comes from the Greek of Philippians 2:7, which says that Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (ESV). The word translated “emptied” is a form of kenoó, from which we get the word kenosis.

Kenoticism, also known as kenotic theology or kenotic Christology, is an unbiblical view of Christ’s nature. Kenoticism teaches that the divinity of the Son of God was somehow lost or lessened when the Lord took on human flesh and entered our world.

The word kenoticism comes from the Greek word kenoó, a form of which is translated “emptied” in some translations of Philippians 2:7. Writing about Christ, Paul says, “Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied [ekenōsen] Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6–7, NASB).

Kenotic theology or kenotic Christology, first introduced in the late 1800s by German theologian Gottfried Thomasius (1802—75), is based on the idea that Jesus actually laid aside some of His divinity in order to be more like human beings. Philippians 2:6–7 is used as the proof text for this idea. Jesus “emptied” Himself, according to kenoticism, of His divine attributes.

The biblical truth is that Jesus Christ fully possessed both a divine nature and a human nature, and the two natures co-existed in what is often called the hypostatic union. Kenoticism is an attempt to redefine the nature of Christ. Interestingly, it is only the divine nature of Christ that kenoticism calls into question, not His human nature. Most people can easily accept the reality of Jesus’ humanity. Few would argue with the fact that Jesus was born, lived, and died as a human being. What is harder to accept is that He was born, lived, and died—and rose again—as God incarnate.

If Jesus divested Himself of some of His divine attributes, as some teach, then we have some theological problems. First, emptying Himself of any part of His divinity would render Jesus less than fully divine. If He had temporarily laid aside His omniscience, omnipotence, etc., He would have ceased being the divine Son of God. But God cannot stop being God, even for a moment.

Another significant problem with kenotic Christology involves the eternal destiny of all who follow Christ. No mere human being can fulfill the role of Savior. If Jesus were not the infinite second Person of the triune God, His sacrifice would be insufficient. If Christ were not divine, if He had given up His divinity at any point in time, the efficacy of His sacrifice on the cross would be nullified. To be the Savior, Jesus was at every moment both fully God and fully man.

How, then, do we understand Philippians 2:6–7, which says that the Son of God “emptied” Himself as He took on the form of a servant? In what way did Jesus “empty” Himself? We begin with context. Verses 1—5 describe the attitude believers should adopt, one that “was also in Christ Jesus.” Believers are to exhibit humility and lowliness of mind, having the same self-sacrificial mindset that Jesus had. He didn’t use His equality with God to His own advantage; rather, He took on the form of a servant. Believers are to emulate Christ by becoming humble and obedient. Believers do not put off their human attributes and become something else, any more than Jesus put off His divine attributes. Rather, they look to Jesus as their example and subjugate their impulses and desires for the sake of others.

Christ’s “emptying” of Himself was the laying aside of the privileges of divinity, not divinity itself. In heaven, the Son of God possessed infinite honor and glory and adoration. But He chose to leave that position of honor, and He “made himself nothing” (Philippians 2:7). When He came to earth, He veiled His glory and chose to occupy the position of a slave. The kenosis spoken of in Philippians 2:7 was a self-renunciation but not an emptying of deity. Jesus never ceased to be God, and He did not exchange deity for humanity.

What Jesus did was set aside His heavenly glory. And He voluntarily refrained from using His divinity to make His way easier. His miracles were not done to benefit Himself but to help others. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father (John 5:19). John Walvoord explains it this way: “The act of kenosis . . . may . . . be properly understood to mean that Christ surrendered no attribute of Deity, but that He did voluntarily restrict their independent use in keeping with His purpose of living among men and their limitations” (Jesus Christ Our Lord, p. 144).

At times, Jesus intentionally veiled His attributes that at other times were fully on display. When He healed the sick, walked on water, fed the 5,000, and raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus’ divine nature was fully evident. When He allowed Himself to be hungry, thirsty, beaten, abused, and crucified without retaliating, He was intentionally restricting His divine power. He did not give up His power; rather, He chose to subjugate it for a greater good. But at no time during His life was Christ ever without the fullness of divinity (see Colossians 2:9).

Discussions of kenoticism are complicated by the fact that sometimes the term kenosis is used as a synonym for kenoticism. The Bible teaches the kenosis of Christ, but it does not teach that Jesus gave up any divine attributes. Kenosis must be understood within the larger context of the whole of Scripture. And when teachers speak of kenosis, we must be sure to understand how they are using the term. Kenoticism is a heresy that takes the biblical concept of kenosis too far.got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Kenosis theory, therefore, is not heresy. For it is substantiated by Philippians 2:1-11 and a number of other passages.

Here lets begin with the syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

In Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily.” Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells(is present) bodily in Jesus.

ALL THE FULNESS OF DEITY= nothing absent, missing its the same FULNESS of the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT- The Godhead.

Try to engage the text and exegete the passage rather than use eisegesis- reading your own thoughts and ideas into the text.

He shed His blood on the cross when all the Fulness of Deity was in Him bodily as the passage plainly SAYS in Colossians 1:19-20.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Jesus called His Followers, “ Friends”....... friends are not afraid of other friends...

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:14)

Do you have a mind to do whatsoever he commands you?

Love your enemies.

Turn the other cheek.

Surrender your belongings to robbers.

Give hoping to receive no payback.

Do good to those who hate you.

Bless them that curse you.

If you have an attitude to do these things, your reward will indeed be great in heaven.

Otherwise you are not Jesus’ friend and will have no part in the new heavens and new earth. Any teaching saying that you do not have to do any of these things and yet still be a friend of the Lord is false.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What is harder to accept is that He was born, lived, and died—and rose again—as God incarnate.

Where does scripture say this?

Scripture says that Jesus rose up and went to sit on the right hand of God (Acts of the Apostles 7:56; Romans 8:34).

 

[ChristisGod]

Where does scripture say this?

Scripture says that Jesus rose up and went to sit on the right hand of God (Acts of the Apostles 7:56; Romans 8:34).

is Jesus God ? yes or no

after you answer I will discuss any and all scriptures with you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Christ’s “emptying” of Himself was the laying aside of the privileges of divinity, not divinity itself.

No duh.

maybe you are defining kenosis theory differently than I am.

What Jesus did was set aside His heavenly glory.

That's all I'm saying.

The Omni's were not present in the Son because of Christ's added human nature (Mark 13:32; Matthew 28:18; 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)

In Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily.” Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity.

How then did He not have Omnipotence until after He rose from the dead, as is written in Matthew 28:18. How is it that He did not know the day of His return, as is written in Mark 13:32? And, are you saying that He did not dwell in a finite human body? if you are, then you may have the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). If you aren't, then how was He Omnipresent?

ALL THE FULNESS OF DEITY= nothing absent, missing its the same FULNESS of the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT- The Godhead.

Try to engage the text and exegete the passage rather than use eisegesis- reading your own thoughts and ideas into the text.

Truly, Christ limited Himself when He took on an added nature of humanity. He did not stop being God; but His added human nature did not allow for such things as Omniscience, Omnipresence, and even Omnipotence; until after He rose from the dead.

 

[justbyfaith]

its heresy and false teaching as is your oneness heresy that the Father is the Son/Son is the Father.

Your above confession it makes you a non trinitarian for the Trinity did not exist for 33 years while Jesus walked this earth. If Jesus did not have the exact same attributes as the Father and the Holy Spirit then by default He was not God.

Trinity 101- you failed. Scripture condemns such heresy as do the Creeds.

The term kenosis refers to the doctrine of Christ’s “self-emptying” in His incarnation. The word comes from the Greek of Philippians 2:7, which says that Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (ESV). The word translated “emptied” is a form of kenoó, from which we get the word kenosis.

Kenoticism, also known as kenotic theology or kenotic Christology, is an unbiblical view of Christ’s nature. Kenoticism teaches that the divinity of the Son of God was somehow lost or lessened when the Lord took on human flesh and entered our world.

The word kenoticism comes from the Greek word kenoó, a form of which is translated “emptied” in some translations of Philippians 2:7. Writing about Christ, Paul says, “Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied [ekenōsen] Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6–7, NASB).

Kenotic theology or kenotic Christology, first introduced in the late 1800s by German theologian Gottfried Thomasius (1802—75), is based on the idea that Jesus actually laid aside some of His divinity in order to be more like human beings. Philippians 2:6–7 is used as the proof text for this idea. Jesus “emptied” Himself, according to kenoticism, of His divine attributes.

The biblical truth is that Jesus Christ fully possessed both a divine nature and a human nature, and the two natures co-existed in what is often called the hypostatic union. Kenoticism is an attempt to redefine the nature of Christ. Interestingly, it is only the divine nature of Christ that kenoticism calls into question, not His human nature. Most people can easily accept the reality of Jesus’ humanity. Few would argue with the fact that Jesus was born, lived, and died as a human being. What is harder to accept is that He was born, lived, and died—and rose again—as God incarnate.

If Jesus divested Himself of some of His divine attributes, as some teach, then we have some theological problems. First, emptying Himself of any part of His divinity would render Jesus less than fully divine. If He had temporarily laid aside His omniscience, omnipotence, etc., He would have ceased being the divine Son of God. But God cannot stop being God, even for a moment.

Another significant problem with kenotic Christology involves the eternal destiny of all who follow Christ. No mere human being can fulfill the role of Savior. If Jesus were not the infinite second Person of the triune God, His sacrifice would be insufficient. If Christ were not divine, if He had given up His divinity at any point in time, the efficacy of His sacrifice on the cross would be nullified. To be the Savior, Jesus was at every moment both fully God and fully man.

How, then, do we understand Philippians 2:6–7, which says that the Son of God “emptied” Himself as He took on the form of a servant? In what way did Jesus “empty” Himself? We begin with context. Verses 1—5 describe the attitude believers should adopt, one that “was also in Christ Jesus.” Believers are to exhibit humility and lowliness of mind, having the same self-sacrificial mindset that Jesus had. He didn’t use His equality with God to His own advantage; rather, He took on the form of a servant. Believers are to emulate Christ by becoming humble and obedient. Believers do not put off their human attributes and become something else, any more than Jesus put off His divine attributes. Rather, they look to Jesus as their example and subjugate their impulses and desires for the sake of others.

Christ’s “emptying” of Himself was the laying aside of the privileges of divinity, not divinity itself. In heaven, the Son of God possessed infinite honor and glory and adoration. But He chose to leave that position of honor, and He “made himself nothing” (Philippians 2:7). When He came to earth, He veiled His glory and chose to occupy the position of a slave. The kenosis spoken of in Philippians 2:7 was a self-renunciation but not an emptying of deity. Jesus never ceased to be God, and He did not exchange deity for humanity.

What Jesus did was set aside His heavenly glory. And He voluntarily refrained from using His divinity to make His way easier. His miracles were not done to benefit Himself but to help others. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father (John 5:19). John Walvoord explains it this way: “The act of kenosis . . . may . . . be properly understood to mean that Christ surrendered no attribute of Deity, but that He did voluntarily restrict their independent use in keeping with His purpose of living among men and their limitations” (Jesus Christ Our Lord, p. 144).

At times, Jesus intentionally veiled His attributes that at other times were fully on display. When He healed the sick, walked on water, fed the 5,000, and raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus’ divine nature was fully evident. When He allowed Himself to be hungry, thirsty, beaten, abused, and crucified without retaliating, He was intentionally restricting His divine power. He did not give up His power; rather, He chose to subjugate it for a greater good. But at no time during His life was Christ ever without the fullness of divinity (see Colossians 2:9).

Discussions of kenoticism are complicated by the fact that sometimes the term kenosis is used as a synonym for kenoticism. The Bible teaches the kenosis of Christ, but it does not teach that Jesus gave up any divine attributes. Kenosis must be understood within the larger context of the whole of Scripture. And when teachers speak of kenosis, we must be sure to understand how they are using the term. Kenoticism is a heresy that takes the biblical concept of kenosis too far.got?

hope this helps !!!

Here lets begin with the syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

...snipped so that this could be posted (because only 10,000 characters are allowed in any post).

I noticed that you did not substantiate your viewpoints with very much scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

its heresy and false teaching as is your oneness heresy that the Father is the Son/Son is the Father.

It is not heresy that I believe and preach that the Son is the Father (while the Father is not the Son from my perspective).

Isaiah 9:6-7 is clear enough; that the zeal of the LORD of hosts is going to bring about the happenstance that the name of the son that was given shall be called "The everlasting Father"...

In order to deny this, you have to change the wording of that scripture, not once, but twice.

Therefore my estimation that eisegesis is in the works when such things are done is not unfounded logically.

 

[Cooper]

It is not heresy that I believe and preach that the Son is the Father (while the Father is not the Son from my perspective).

Isaiah 9:6-7 is clear enough; that the zeal of the LORD of hosts is going to bring about the happenstance that the name of the son that was given shall be called "The everlasting Father"...

In order to deny this, you have to change the wording of that scripture, not once, but twice.

Therefore my estimation that eisegesis is in the works when such things are done is not unfounded logically.

Let me share this with you from the Blue Letter Bible:

Jesus emptied Himself in at least three different ways. First, He voluntarily accepted the limitations of being a human being. Second, His glory was hidden from the people. Third, He gave up the independent use of His attributes (all-knowing, all-powerful, everywhere present, etc.).
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me share this with you from the Blue Letter Bible:

Jesus emptied Himself in at least three different ways. First, He voluntarily accepted the limitations of being a human being. Second, His glory was hidden from the people. Third, He gave up the independent use of His attributes (all-knowing, all-powerful, everywhere present, etc.).
.

I agree with everything except that His glory was hidden from the people (see John 1:14).

 

[Cooper]

I agree with everything except that His glory was hidden from the people (see John 1:14).

Yes, Christ's glory was seen at the transfiguration, and they were not blinded, but before then, people only saw the son of a carpenter.
.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, Christ's glory was seen at the transfiguration, and they were not blinded, but before then, people only saw the son of a carpenter.
.

Are you going to have a little think about this, and maybe make the necessary adjustment to your theology?

I have had to do the same myself many times, and it hurts.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you going to have a little think about this, and maybe make the necessary adjustment to your theology?

I have had to do the same myself many times, and it hurts.
.

You talking to me? It is not that great of an adjustment.

As a matter of fact, I was seeking to draw out that answer from you.

 

[Cooper]

You talking to me? It is not that great of an adjustment.

As a matter of fact, I was seeking to draw out that answer from you.

Go for it. You know the pre-incarnate Jesus created the heaven and the earth, and when he took on the likeness of man, that was a tremendous humbling when he emptied himself of all his heavenly glory.