@Preacher4Truth It seems to me that sometimes evangelical "methods" seem to leave out dependence on the essential work of the Holy Spirit, and rely on their own means of extracting the supposedly correct response, which is then attributed to God...but if and when it does not last...?
Thoughts on Charles Finney
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I've witnessed pastors telling everyone to bow their heads. He then asked "Who wants to go to heaven when you die? Just slip up your hand where I can see it if you're trusting Jesus to take you to heaven." He guaranteed them they would "go to heaven when they die" because they just got "saved."
No Gospel was presented, no repentance, no reason to repent and believe was given. When these question their conversion they're brushed off flippantly with 1 John 5:13, taken out of context of course.
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...whereas John's First Epistle also speaks a lot about walking in the light and the Lord's cleansing and deliverance from sin.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
1 John 5:13 is written to those true converts who pass the tests of genuine conversion in the balance of the epistle.
I believe that his testimony is clear that he disagreed with the hyper-Calvinistic teaching of the Presbyterian church at that time, and also made that evident; but that the church ordained him anyway because of his clear anointing as an evangelist for Christ.
Also, if ordained by the Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church could have also disordained him; but they did not do so because of the fact that the fruit of his ministry was so evident.
There are some very searching - and encouraging - verses in 1 John, from which the true believer can gain immense assurance.
Regarding the conversation concerning 1 John 5:13 and those conversions that were not genuine...
It should be clear that preaching that does not bring to bear on the sinner's heart that he is a sinner and is called to repent of his sin(s), is very likely not a message that is going to save.
It is unfortunate that people are told that they "have been saved" when all they did in order to obtain salvation was to raise their hand anonymously in a darkened church...
If they were called upon to confess the Lord Jesus with their mouth and call on His name for salvation, the effects would be much more enduring in their hearts, and one might be able to give them a solid assurance based on scripture that they are indeed eternally saved.
It should be clear that preaching that does not bring to bear on the sinner's heart that he is a sinner and is called to repent of his sin(s), is very likely not a message that is going to save.
It is unfortunate that people are told that they "have been saved" when all they did in order to obtain salvation was to raise their hand anonymously in a darkened church...
If they were called upon to confess the Lord Jesus with their mouth and call on His name for salvation, the effects would be much more enduring in their hearts, and one might be able to give them a solid assurance based on scripture that they are indeed eternally saved.
Traditionally, Lutherans have tended to believe in consubstantiation (as opposed to transubstantiation, in the R C Church), while Calvinists have not tended to stress it as much. (It was the Swiss Zwinglians that tended to see the emblems simply as part of a remembrance - 1 Corinthians 11.26).
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
It’s evident that Finney’s Finneyisms are alivin’ and thrivin’ by reading posts.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
The preacher in the scenario represents YOU and your teaching. They made a free will decision so they're going to heaven. They acknowledged Him, so they're going to heaven. They chose so they're going to heaven.
Should I toss in Romans 5:2, out of context as you do, for further proof? Man, you're an utterly confused individual. Not only can you not see true teaching, true context, the true Gospel, you can't even recognize your false message when someone illustrates it for you.
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Resorting to insults is not going to get you anywhere with me.
Yes, making a free will decision for Christ will get a man into heaven. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13.
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Whatever may be considered Finneyisms (and frankly I have not spent too much time or effort on Finney), and whatever else may be incorrect about his teachings, Finney's doctrine of the atonement is perfectly biblical (although Calvinists will not accept that).
Here are quotations from his Systematic Theology (and I am neither a fan nor a follower of Finney, but the truth is the truth, and we dare not misrepresent what a man has clearly stated).
LECTURE XXXV. -- Extent of Atonement.
...Christ is God. In the atonement, God has given us the influence of his own example, has exhibited his own love, his own compassion, his own self-denial, his own patience, his own long-suffering, under abuse from enemies. In the atonement he has exhibited all the highest and most perfect forms of virtue, has united himself with human nature, has exhibited these forms of virtue to the inspection of our senses, and laboured, wept, suffered, bled, and died for man. This is not only the highest revelation of God that could be given to man; but is giving the whole weight of his own example in favour of all the virtues which he requires of man....
...The atonement is the highest testimony that God could give of his holy abhorrence of sin; of his regard to his law; of his determination to support it; and, also, of his great love for his subjects; his great compassion for sinners; and his willingness to suffer himself in their stead; rather, on the one hand, than to punish them, or, on the other, than to set aside the penalty without satisfaction being made to public justice...
...It has demonstrated, that sin can never be forgiven without full satisfaction being made to public justice, and that public justice can never be satisfied with anything less than an atonement made by God himself...
...From these considerations it is manifest, that the value of the atonement is infinite. We have reason to believe, that Christ, by his atonement, is not only the Saviour of this world, but the Saviour of the universe in an important sense....
...The atonement was made for the benefit particularly of the inhabitants of this world, from its very nature, as it is calculated to benefit all the inhabitants of this world; as it is a most stupendous revelation of God to man. Its nature is adapted to benefit all mankind. All mankind can be pardoned, if they are rightly affected and brought to repentance by it, as well as any part of mankind...
...If the atonement is not intended for all mankind, it is impossible for us not to regard God as insincere, in making them the offer of salvation through the atonement...
... But upon this subject of the extent of the atonement, let the Bible speak for itself: "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world, to condemn the world: but that the world through him might be saved...
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