Three Days and Three Nights
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Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I'm not sure where we got our wires crossed, but I'm not defending the ESV. It adopts a textual variant that makes absolutely no sense in the context of Luke 22:16. That was my argument.Pilgrimer said:
Sorry rstrats, If you think we are straying off the OP. I'm sure Pilgrimer and I can move our discussion to another thread. What would you like us to do?rstrats said:
As far as non-biblical documentation, I have none. So, regarding your OP I do not believe that you will find a case as such in the Bible. However, you can find the opposite. I know of 2 cases in which a 3 day count and a 7 day count actually cover part of 4 days and 8 days respectively. But I came to the conclusion that this was not what you were looking for after we corresponded before.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
That is not word for word from the TR. Where did you get that? The verbs aren't parsed properly among other things. Not even close. There is no "in any way" in the Greek text.zeke25 said:
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Zeke,
[SIZE=10pt]You claim that the translators erroneously refer to the “the first day of unleavened bread” as the day on which the Passover was killed, and yet Mark himself used the exact same expression: “The first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover.” No words were inserted here, that is the original text. So too does Luke: “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” The words “first,” “day,” and “bread” were not inserted into these texts by the translators, they are part of the original text. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]There is no contradiction between these accounts, not is there any contradiction within them. The Passover was sacrificed on Thursday afternoon and eaten Thursday night. This was the first day of unleavened bread.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]You stated: “Passover is only one day … there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover … the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Nonsense, there was no unleavened bread eaten on the days leading up to the Passover. The Jews ate unleavened bread 7 days, beginning with the Passover Seder eaten on the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) and concluding with the 7th day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 21). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“On the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” Leviticus 23:5-6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The Jews ate unleavened bread for 7 days. Not 8. Not 9 or 10 or more. 7 days. Beginning on the first day of unleavened bread, Nisan 15 when they ate the Passover, and ending on the 7th and last day of unleavened bread, Nisan 21. “Seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” 7 days. Period. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And from your comments it is also evident you are not at all familiar with either the Levitical code for the preparations that had to be made for the passover or the historical manner of it's observance. But more importantly you are not familiar enough with the Scripture itself for Mark records that the upper room where Jesus and the disciples were to eat the Passover was already "furnished and prepared" when Jesus sent them into the city to make the final preparations, which would be the sacrifice of the lamb in the temple sometime between 1:00 and 5:00 p.m. and then it had to be roasted. The rest of the preparations had already been made. (Mark 14:15) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]In Christ,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Pilgrimer[/SIZE]
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
[SIZE=10pt]You claim that the translators erroneously refer to the “the first day of unleavened bread” as the day on which the Passover was killed, and yet Mark himself used the exact same expression: “The first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover.” No words were inserted here, that is the original text. So too does Luke: “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” The words “first,” “day,” and “bread” were not inserted into these texts by the translators, they are part of the original text. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]There is no contradiction between these accounts, not is there any contradiction within them. The Passover was sacrificed on Thursday afternoon and eaten Thursday night. This was the first day of unleavened bread.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]You stated: “Passover is only one day … there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover … the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Nonsense, there was no unleavened bread eaten on the days leading up to the Passover. The Jews ate unleavened bread 7 days, beginning with the Passover Seder eaten on the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) and concluding with the 7th day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 21). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“On the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” Leviticus 23:5-6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The Jews ate unleavened bread for 7 days. Not 8. Not 9 or 10 or more. 7 days. Beginning on the first day of unleavened bread, Nisan 15 when they ate the Passover, and ending on the 7th and last day of unleavened bread, Nisan 21. “Seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” 7 days. Period. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And from your comments it is also evident you are not at all familiar with either the Levitical code for the preparations that had to be made for the passover or the historical manner of it's observance. But more importantly you are not familiar enough with the Scripture itself for Mark records that the upper room where Jesus and the disciples were to eat the Passover was already "furnished and prepared" when Jesus sent them into the city to make the final preparations, which would be the sacrifice of the lamb in the temple sometime between 1:00 and 5:00 p.m. and then it had to be roasted. The rest of the preparations had already been made. (Mark 14:15) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]In Christ,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Pilgrimer[/SIZE]
I understood you weren't defending it and in fact that you disagree with it but you were simply pointing out that Zeke was appealing to it to support his teaching. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, I was just pointing out why it is incorrect.Nomad said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Thank you folks for caring!
So Jesus spent 2 nights in the tomb...hmmmm...let's eyeball Tobit 3:12 then Esther 4:16 with 5:1.
Old, eyeballing also, Jack
So Jesus spent 2 nights in the tomb...hmmmm...let's eyeball Tobit 3:12 then Esther 4:16 with 5:1.
Old, eyeballing also, Jack
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Pilgrimer,
Pil: You claim that the translators erroneously refer to the “the first day of unleavened bread” as the day on which the Passover was killed,
Zeke: No, this is not what I wrote. Here is what I wrote:
Matthew 26:17 KJV, "Now the first (Strong's G4413 protos) day of the feast of unleavened bread… and then I said that “day”, “feast of”, and “bread” were not in the Textus Receptus. Therefore, the rendering should have been “Now the first of the unleavened…”. There is a night and day difference between what you said I said and what I actually said. The KJV is identifying the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the correct rendering does not do this, because the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread where not being spoken of in Mt. 26:17, only the single day of Passover was being referred to.
Pil: and yet Mark himself used the exact same expression: “The first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover.” No words were inserted here, that is the original text.
Zeke: Yes, Mark 14:12 does say this, but that is different than what Mt 26:17 says. Then Mark goes on to immediately identify exactly which of the two unleavens he is talking about, he says, “when they killed the passover.” There is no misunderstanding about which of the two unleavened feasts that Mark is addressing. He is not speaking to the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, he is speaking to the single day of Passover, which precedes the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I could continue to explain the definition of “day” and the fact that “bread” is not in Mark 14:12 any more than it was it Mt. 26:17, but you want to take shortcuts. I thought I would try a shortcut with you to accommodate you, but it is not working. You have not done any ground work and you are completely out of your element. Nevertheless, I will continue to the end of your post for the sake of others who may read this. Please don’t be offended, because it sounds as if you are already. But Christianity is not a microwave religion. And since it is so important, it affects your eternal state, then I would hope you would be willing to go not only the extra mile, but an extra 100 miles.
Pil: So too does Luke: “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” The words “first,” “day,” and “bread” were not inserted into these texts by the translators, they are part of the original text.
Zeke: Luke 22:7 KJV, "7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” Once again, for the third time in a row, bread is not there, it should have been italicized. Luke does not equivocate. He identifies very clearly that he is talking about the single day of Passover only. Now if you want the full explanation of both Mark and Luke, then it will be about as long as Matthew was. But it is the only way you will be able to grasp it. Trying to give piecemeal objections misses the ballpark completely. What’s it going to be? Are you going to walk away justifying yourself, or do you want to learn the truth?
Pil: There is no contradiction between these accounts, not is there any contradiction within them. The Passover was sacrificed on Thursday afternoon and eaten Thursday night. This was the first day of unleavened bread.
Zeke: There is no contradiction among these three Scriptures, that much you are correct about. But it is obvious that you do not understand which unleavened feast is being spoken of. It must either be Passover or it must be the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is not both and I suspect that you think it is. The Passover is always sacrificed on Friday Abib 14, never sooner, and all Abib 14’s throughout history are Fridays.
Pil: You stated: “Passover is only one day … there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover … the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover.”
Nonsense, there was no unleavened bread eaten on the days leading up to the Passover.
Zeke: I never said that unleavened bread was eaten prior to Passover. Where in the world did you get that from? You see, the problem is you’re still in the mindset of the false teachings you’ve received through the years. You are not talking about the same thing that the Scriptures teach and what I am explaining about those Scriptures. You cannot take shortcuts and expect to reach your destination in the Bible.
Please tell us? Do you understand that Passover is only a single day? Do you understand that the day after Passover is the first day of seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread? Do you understand that they are two separate, distinct, and different feasts altogether? They are not linked together except by their close proximity on the calendar. Both are referred to as unleavened or unleavened bread, but their similarities end there. You must discern from the context of the Scripture which of these two unleavens is being spoken of.
Pil: The Jews ate unleavened bread 7 days, beginning with the Passover Seder eaten on the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) and concluding with the 7[SIZE=10.7px]th[/SIZE] day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 21).
Zeke: Absolutely incorrect. You’re still in the seder mode. That is current day Rabbinic Judaism. It has nothing to do with crucifixion week. Seders did not exist when Christ walked among us. You are right about the Feast of Unleavened Bread being on the 15th and ending on the 21st. But Passover is on the 14th as you point out by quoting Lev. 23:5.
Pil: “On the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” Leviticus 23:5-6
The Jews ate unleavened bread for 7 days. Not 8. Not 9 or 10 or more. 7 days. Beginning on the first day of unleavened bread, Nisan 15 when they ate the Passover, and ending on the 7[SIZE=10.7px]th[/SIZE] and last day of unleavened bread, Nisan 21. “Seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” 7 days. Period.
Zeke: No where in the Bible does it say that Passover is on the 15th. It ends on the 14th. I’m sorry Pilgrimer, I don’t want it to look like I’m beating you up. I really want you to understand this. But it doesn’t appear that you want to invest the time needed.
The Passover sacrifice occurs in the evening (our modern day afternoon) on the 14th and the roasting begins. After sundown the Passover Feast begins and lasts all night long if necessary and it is still the 14th. At sunrise Passover is over. At sunrise it is the 15th and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins and continues until the 21st day, a total of seven days.
So, the two feasts together cover an 8 day period. The question is, how does an 8 day period of the requirement to eat unleavened bread come down to a seven day count? The answer is so simple a child could understand it. But I’m not going to keep re-writing my teachings. If you want the info, then let’s dig into them.
Pil: And from your comments it is also evident you are not at all familiar with either the Levitical code for the preparations that had to be made for the passover or the historical manner of it's observance.
Zeke: Of course I am totally familiar with it. That’s why I’m teaching it. I assume you are going to take us on a leaven search. Show that to me in the Bible. It’s probably in the Talmud, but where is it in the Bible? The Bible is our authority, not the Talmud. Once again, the Talmud comes from Rabbinical Judaism, it did not exist in all Biblical times.
Pil: But more importantly you are not familiar enough with the Scripture itself for Mark records that the upper room where Jesus and the disciples were to eat the Passover was already "furnished and prepared" when Jesus sent them into the city to make the final preparations, which would be the sacrifice of the lamb in the temple sometime between 1:00 and 5:00 p.m. and then it had to be roasted. The rest of the preparations had already been made. (Mark 14:15)
Zeke: Come on Pilgrimer, you’re better than that. Of course I am familiar with Mark. And I have already explained in a previous post that the Passover sacrifice would not occur until 2 days hence. Why else would the Pharisees be concerned about defiling themselves and not being able to participate in the upcoming Passover Sacrifice and Feast. The Torah requires that all Hebrews perform the Sacrifice and Feast together, on the same day.
But you have left out the blasphemy. Teaching that the Last Supper and the Passover Feast were one in the same blasphemes our Lord and Savior. He is being accused of breaking Torah (the Law) by eating leavened bread at an unleavened feast. This fact alone, I would hope, would motive all here to look for the truthful teachings of the Bible and not settle for the canned stuff that you have eaten all your lives. In fact, there are three blasphemies, but that is in my teachings. But only for those who desire to dig deeper. Contact me, anyone, we can discuss it. Preferably in a new thread.
Hello shturt678, Thanks for dropping by. Yes, He actually spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, just like He said he would in Mt. 12:40.
God bless you all. I'm sorry for being long winded, but not really. Only Christ can tear down a Temple and rebuild it in 3 days. I'm just his humble servant. It takes me a couple of decades.
Regarding the Textus Receptus in Luke 22:16. We're both using the same edition, 1894 Scrivener, but different sources. The problem comes in with the insertion of Strong's numbers. The copy posted above from a website has inserted G3756 and G3361. Perhaps when I get time I would look further into where these people are coming from. In the meantime my copy does not have G3756 and G3361 instead it has G3364. G3364 certainly hits the nail on the head as to the meaning of the words it refers to. So now we have a disagreement been the "editors" who inserted the Strong's numbers. Isn't it amazing how the rabbit trails and spider web spinnings never seem to end? Not that the poster here is at fault, he has merely copied that which was available to him, just as I have done. But I really would like to know who's running scripture4all and who inserted G3756 and G3361. My copy comes from JP Green's Interlinear Bible.
Pil: You claim that the translators erroneously refer to the “the first day of unleavened bread” as the day on which the Passover was killed,
Zeke: No, this is not what I wrote. Here is what I wrote:
Matthew 26:17 KJV, "Now the first (Strong's G4413 protos) day of the feast of unleavened bread… and then I said that “day”, “feast of”, and “bread” were not in the Textus Receptus. Therefore, the rendering should have been “Now the first of the unleavened…”. There is a night and day difference between what you said I said and what I actually said. The KJV is identifying the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the correct rendering does not do this, because the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread where not being spoken of in Mt. 26:17, only the single day of Passover was being referred to.
Pil: and yet Mark himself used the exact same expression: “The first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover.” No words were inserted here, that is the original text.
Zeke: Yes, Mark 14:12 does say this, but that is different than what Mt 26:17 says. Then Mark goes on to immediately identify exactly which of the two unleavens he is talking about, he says, “when they killed the passover.” There is no misunderstanding about which of the two unleavened feasts that Mark is addressing. He is not speaking to the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, he is speaking to the single day of Passover, which precedes the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I could continue to explain the definition of “day” and the fact that “bread” is not in Mark 14:12 any more than it was it Mt. 26:17, but you want to take shortcuts. I thought I would try a shortcut with you to accommodate you, but it is not working. You have not done any ground work and you are completely out of your element. Nevertheless, I will continue to the end of your post for the sake of others who may read this. Please don’t be offended, because it sounds as if you are already. But Christianity is not a microwave religion. And since it is so important, it affects your eternal state, then I would hope you would be willing to go not only the extra mile, but an extra 100 miles.
Pil: So too does Luke: “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” The words “first,” “day,” and “bread” were not inserted into these texts by the translators, they are part of the original text.
Zeke: Luke 22:7 KJV, "7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.” Once again, for the third time in a row, bread is not there, it should have been italicized. Luke does not equivocate. He identifies very clearly that he is talking about the single day of Passover only. Now if you want the full explanation of both Mark and Luke, then it will be about as long as Matthew was. But it is the only way you will be able to grasp it. Trying to give piecemeal objections misses the ballpark completely. What’s it going to be? Are you going to walk away justifying yourself, or do you want to learn the truth?
Pil: There is no contradiction between these accounts, not is there any contradiction within them. The Passover was sacrificed on Thursday afternoon and eaten Thursday night. This was the first day of unleavened bread.
Zeke: There is no contradiction among these three Scriptures, that much you are correct about. But it is obvious that you do not understand which unleavened feast is being spoken of. It must either be Passover or it must be the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is not both and I suspect that you think it is. The Passover is always sacrificed on Friday Abib 14, never sooner, and all Abib 14’s throughout history are Fridays.
Pil: You stated: “Passover is only one day … there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover … the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover.”
Nonsense, there was no unleavened bread eaten on the days leading up to the Passover.
Zeke: I never said that unleavened bread was eaten prior to Passover. Where in the world did you get that from? You see, the problem is you’re still in the mindset of the false teachings you’ve received through the years. You are not talking about the same thing that the Scriptures teach and what I am explaining about those Scriptures. You cannot take shortcuts and expect to reach your destination in the Bible.
Please tell us? Do you understand that Passover is only a single day? Do you understand that the day after Passover is the first day of seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread? Do you understand that they are two separate, distinct, and different feasts altogether? They are not linked together except by their close proximity on the calendar. Both are referred to as unleavened or unleavened bread, but their similarities end there. You must discern from the context of the Scripture which of these two unleavens is being spoken of.
Pil: The Jews ate unleavened bread 7 days, beginning with the Passover Seder eaten on the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) and concluding with the 7[SIZE=10.7px]th[/SIZE] day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 21).
Zeke: Absolutely incorrect. You’re still in the seder mode. That is current day Rabbinic Judaism. It has nothing to do with crucifixion week. Seders did not exist when Christ walked among us. You are right about the Feast of Unleavened Bread being on the 15th and ending on the 21st. But Passover is on the 14th as you point out by quoting Lev. 23:5.
Pil: “On the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” Leviticus 23:5-6
The Jews ate unleavened bread for 7 days. Not 8. Not 9 or 10 or more. 7 days. Beginning on the first day of unleavened bread, Nisan 15 when they ate the Passover, and ending on the 7[SIZE=10.7px]th[/SIZE] and last day of unleavened bread, Nisan 21. “Seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.” 7 days. Period.
Zeke: No where in the Bible does it say that Passover is on the 15th. It ends on the 14th. I’m sorry Pilgrimer, I don’t want it to look like I’m beating you up. I really want you to understand this. But it doesn’t appear that you want to invest the time needed.
The Passover sacrifice occurs in the evening (our modern day afternoon) on the 14th and the roasting begins. After sundown the Passover Feast begins and lasts all night long if necessary and it is still the 14th. At sunrise Passover is over. At sunrise it is the 15th and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins and continues until the 21st day, a total of seven days.
So, the two feasts together cover an 8 day period. The question is, how does an 8 day period of the requirement to eat unleavened bread come down to a seven day count? The answer is so simple a child could understand it. But I’m not going to keep re-writing my teachings. If you want the info, then let’s dig into them.
Pil: And from your comments it is also evident you are not at all familiar with either the Levitical code for the preparations that had to be made for the passover or the historical manner of it's observance.
Zeke: Of course I am totally familiar with it. That’s why I’m teaching it. I assume you are going to take us on a leaven search. Show that to me in the Bible. It’s probably in the Talmud, but where is it in the Bible? The Bible is our authority, not the Talmud. Once again, the Talmud comes from Rabbinical Judaism, it did not exist in all Biblical times.
Pil: But more importantly you are not familiar enough with the Scripture itself for Mark records that the upper room where Jesus and the disciples were to eat the Passover was already "furnished and prepared" when Jesus sent them into the city to make the final preparations, which would be the sacrifice of the lamb in the temple sometime between 1:00 and 5:00 p.m. and then it had to be roasted. The rest of the preparations had already been made. (Mark 14:15)
Zeke: Come on Pilgrimer, you’re better than that. Of course I am familiar with Mark. And I have already explained in a previous post that the Passover sacrifice would not occur until 2 days hence. Why else would the Pharisees be concerned about defiling themselves and not being able to participate in the upcoming Passover Sacrifice and Feast. The Torah requires that all Hebrews perform the Sacrifice and Feast together, on the same day.
But you have left out the blasphemy. Teaching that the Last Supper and the Passover Feast were one in the same blasphemes our Lord and Savior. He is being accused of breaking Torah (the Law) by eating leavened bread at an unleavened feast. This fact alone, I would hope, would motive all here to look for the truthful teachings of the Bible and not settle for the canned stuff that you have eaten all your lives. In fact, there are three blasphemies, but that is in my teachings. But only for those who desire to dig deeper. Contact me, anyone, we can discuss it. Preferably in a new thread.
Hello shturt678, Thanks for dropping by. Yes, He actually spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, just like He said he would in Mt. 12:40.
God bless you all. I'm sorry for being long winded, but not really. Only Christ can tear down a Temple and rebuild it in 3 days. I'm just his humble servant. It takes me a couple of decades.
Regarding the Textus Receptus in Luke 22:16. We're both using the same edition, 1894 Scrivener, but different sources. The problem comes in with the insertion of Strong's numbers. The copy posted above from a website has inserted G3756 and G3361. Perhaps when I get time I would look further into where these people are coming from. In the meantime my copy does not have G3756 and G3361 instead it has G3364. G3364 certainly hits the nail on the head as to the meaning of the words it refers to. So now we have a disagreement been the "editors" who inserted the Strong's numbers. Isn't it amazing how the rabbit trails and spider web spinnings never seem to end? Not that the poster here is at fault, he has merely copied that which was available to him, just as I have done. But I really would like to know who's running scripture4all and who inserted G3756 and G3361. My copy comes from JP Green's Interlinear Bible.
zeke25,
re: "Sorry rstrats, If you think we are straying off the OP. I'm sure Pilgrimer and I can move our discussion to another thread. What would you like us to do?
I'm used to off topic discussions in threads that I've started. It will be easier for you to keep the "discussion" here. Although a new topic with the appropriate title might bring in some new insights.
shturt678,
re: "Thank you folks for caring! So Jesus spent 2 nights in the tomb...hmmmm...let's eyeball Tobit 3:12 then Esther 4:16 with 5:1."
I'm afraid I don't understand. I wonder if you could elaborate?
re: "Sorry rstrats, If you think we are straying off the OP. I'm sure Pilgrimer and I can move our discussion to another thread. What would you like us to do?
I'm used to off topic discussions in threads that I've started. It will be easier for you to keep the "discussion" here. Although a new topic with the appropriate title might bring in some new insights.
shturt678,
re: "Thank you folks for caring! So Jesus spent 2 nights in the tomb...hmmmm...let's eyeball Tobit 3:12 then Esther 4:16 with 5:1."
I'm afraid I don't understand. I wonder if you could elaborate?
Thank you again!
Again, how can Jesus say that His stay in the grave would be "for three days and three nights" when he actually spent only "2" nights in the grave? The difficulty disappears when in Tobit 3:12 we read, "Ate not nor drank for three days and three nights," and yet in the very next verse, "Then on the third day," the fast being ended. Similarly Esther 4:16 compared with 5:1.
The ol' idiomatic Jewish usuage.
Old Jack
Again, how can Jesus say that His stay in the grave would be "for three days and three nights" when he actually spent only "2" nights in the grave? The difficulty disappears when in Tobit 3:12 we read, "Ate not nor drank for three days and three nights," and yet in the very next verse, "Then on the third day," the fast being ended. Similarly Esther 4:16 compared with 5:1.
The ol' idiomatic Jewish usuage.
Old Jack
shturt678,
re: "Thank you again!"
I still don't know what you mean by that.
Also, there is nothing in the Tobit and Esther passages that precludes at least a portion of each one of the 3 daytimes and at least a portion of each one of the 3 nighttimes.
re: "Thank you again!"
I still don't know what you mean by that.
Also, there is nothing in the Tobit and Esther passages that precludes at least a portion of each one of the 3 daytimes and at least a portion of each one of the 3 nighttimes.
Maybe I can make the counting of days a little easier, at least as far as they are concerned from a crucifixion week perspective, because the way people count is not uniform throughout the Bible. But this is a good rule of thumb.rstrats said:
I know some people beat themselves to death and write lengthy apologetics claiming that the three days and nights must be 72 hours. This concept is not uniformly applied throughout Scripture.
Another excerpt from my teaching Crucifixion Week and the Harmony of the Gospels.
RESURRECTION DAY
10.a. Why do we know that neither the Last Supper nor the day of the crucifixion can possibly be the same day as Passover? Because we can count the days and nights in which Yahoshua's body was dead. We know that He was crucified on the day before Passover. Since Passover is always Friday Abib 14, then He must have been crucified on Thursday Abib 13. Now let us count the days and nights.
Thursday Abib 13 was the last day He was alive, but it is also the first day in which He was dead.
Thursday day of Abib 13 counts as the first day.
Thursday night of Abib 13 counts as the first night.
Friday day of Abib 14 (the day of Passover) counts as the second day.
Friday night of Abib 14 counts as the second night.
Saturday day of Abib 15 (the first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) counts as the third day.
Saturday night of Abib 15 counts as the third night.
We cannot count Sunday day of Abib 16 as resurrection day because that would necessitate the count of a fourth day. Therefore, He must have risen from the dead sometime Saturday night prior to Sunday sunrise. And this is exactly that which the Bible teaches.
Also, regarding my post above about Luke 22:16 and the Strong's numbers used for the Greek words in the Textus Receptus. My copy, by JP Green and the BlueLetterBible are in agreement. I'm still trying to find out which interlinear BlueLetter is using. I've also written scripture4all and requested that they identify themselves.
zeke25,
re: "...regarding your OP I do not believe that you will find a case as such in the Bible."
Any first century or before writing from non-scriptural sources will be fine.
zeke25,
re: "Since Passover is always Friday Abib 14..."
How can the days of the month always fall on the same day of the week?
re: "...regarding your OP I do not believe that you will find a case as such in the Bible."
Any first century or before writing from non-scriptural sources will be fine.
zeke25,
re: "Since Passover is always Friday Abib 14..."
How can the days of the month always fall on the same day of the week?
Thank you for your response again!rstrats said:
We can agree to disagree,
Thank you again,
Old Jack
In the Calendar of Scripture, which was in use by Christ and the Pharisees all the way back to Creation Week, every Friday of every month is always the 14th of that month. Beginning with Hillel II that calendar was corrupted. However, other calendar corruptions from other sources were being used along the way also. Hillel II and Rabbinic Judaism were the first corruption that directly affected the Calendar of Scripture, the other calendars were used by societies in history that thought they could make a better calendar than God. I have been hesitant in starting a thread about this calendar because I'm having a hard time copying and pasting charts into this forum.rstrats said:
Here's a brief explanation of how it works. There is only one type of day in Gregory's calendar, every day is the same as every other day. In the Rabbinic calendar there are only two types of days, work days and weekly sabbaths. In the Calendar of Scripture (COS) there are three types of days: work days, weekly sabbaths, and new moon days.
In the beginning, (although today there are approximately six less days) the COS had 12 months of 30 days each in a year. Each month had two new moon days that were always the 1st and the 30th. These new moon days were part of a month, but they were not part of a week. Therefore, the 1st day of the first week of every month was always the 2nd day of the month. Therefore the 4 Saturdays/Sabbaths of every month are always the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th. I can see I'm going to have to start a thread on this but it is a two part teaching.
You can find others on the net that teach a very similar calendar. But they are all corrupted at one point or another. One major reason for the corruption is that they are overly concerned about accommodating the current Rabbinic calendar and the annual feast and holy convocation days. I don't care about that. I combed the Scriptures for the evidence of this calendar and worked it out. I didn't care about weekly sabbaths or annual ones. I just worked out the mechanics of the calendar and let the chips fall where they may.
The beauty of the COS however, is that after I figured out (I can't really give myself the credit because without the Holy Ghost I would have never found it and figured it out) all the annual sabbaths fit into it perfectly. God is so good. Except for the Day of Atonement (I may have missed another one because I'm doing this off the top of my head right now) all other annual sabbaths line up with the end of or beginning of a week. This way, God has added more non-work days in a row for people to get a longer rest. This is very unlike the current Rabbinic calendar. They wrap the last of the previous month with the first of the new month just as Gregory does, and Passover falls who knows where in a week. The COS resets on the New Moon every month.
Regarding the old phrase "agree to disagree": I never enter into those contracts. If God tells me and it is confirmed in the Scriptures or if the Scriptures teach me, then I go by that only.
zeke25/Rick
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
zeke25 said:
1. How can every Friday of every month fall on the 14th of that month? There are at least 4 Fridays in every month.
2. What is the ancient source of this calendar and where can I see this calendar and its source?
3. Prove that this calendar was in use, as you claim, from creation week to the time of Christ.
I hope you're happy you caught me in a typo. Not every Friday is the 14th. The 2nd Friday of every month is the 14th.Nomad said:
The ancient source of this calendar is the Bible. You will not find it in a particular Scripture, it must be gleaned from the information given to us in the Scriptures. Looks like I will soon be starting a thread regarding it.
I would imagine that there is some calendars in antiquity that some have located that show a calendar formatted this way, but I haven't even looked for them, so I don't know where they are. I took my information from the Scriptures and from that which the Holy Ghost was showing me. Perhaps some on the internet - and they have very fancy websites - that also show this type of formatting for their calendars will have some information about ancient sources. After all, they must have gotten a clue from somewhere. They didn't get their clues from me because I don't have a website and haven't for almost 2 decades. I didn't develop this calendar until this last decade.
In the last year or so I visited some of their sites to see if I could find someone in agreement with my calendar. But I couldn't find anyone with a calendar with my formatting that didn't have other errors that precluded us from being in agreement. Mostly they do not understand when the New Moon Day is. And others, who did understand that much, concerned themselves with the Feasts and one in particular was totally whacked with ideas about some celestial body sucking water from Venus and then depositing it on Earth for Noah's flood. So, I figured I was wasting my time looking for calendar kindreds and gave up on it.
Besides, as an expert time keeper, I concern myself with things that do not even cross other people's minds. For example, there needs to be a starting point for each new day at sunrise. Our current system uses Greenwich, England and the International Date Line, to line every thing up. I figured God didn't have any special affinity for either of these manmade markers, so my calendar is based on sunrise in Jerusalem. After all God told us in the Scriptures that His eye is always on that place. That was good enough for me and the calendar He gave me.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Okay. It happens. No big deal.zeke25 said:
So basically you're telling me that you have this lofty claim and proof is forthcoming. I look forward to it.
Thank you folks for caring!
Only a head's up, the Jewish Passover always was on the 15th Friday (began Thursday eve of course) where the Lord's Supper was also on the 15th then. The ol' 1st star in the sky routine.
Old Jack
Only a head's up, the Jewish Passover always was on the 15th Friday (began Thursday eve of course) where the Lord's Supper was also on the 15th then. The ol' 1st star in the sky routine.
Old Jack
Whenever the word Passover is used in Scripture it must be discerned from the context which part of Passover is being addressed or if both parts are being addressed.shturt678 said:
There is the Passover sacrifice and the Passover Feast.
The sacrifice occurs on Friday the 14th about mid-evening (mid-afternoon in our modern times). Leviticus 23:5 TIB, "In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the Passover to [Yahowah].”
The feast occurs after sunset on Friday Abib 14 and might last all night, but it certainly doesn’t have to. Saturday Abib 15 begins at sunrise as soon as Abib 14 ends at this same sunrise.
Passover, both sacrifice and feast occur on the same day, Abib 14. Exodus 12:14 KJV, "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to [Yahowah] throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.”
If you can find a Scripture that teaches a two day Passover please tell me. I need to know.
Pilgrimer, shturt678, Nomad, etc & any others that are reading but not participating,
When discussing the events of crucifixion week here is the problem that Christendom is having. They are not using the right tools. If can be likened to a auto mechanic working on a metric car with only wrenches made in inches. It just doesn't fit. And the mechanic is from the old school and he never heard of metrics, and he just can't seem to figure out what's wrong.
That's what the teachings I've posted thus far are all about. It's a process. Each teaching is designed to give the mechanic (Spirit led born-again Christian) one more tool that fits. Twilight versus Between the Evenings, A Day Begins At Sunrise, and Seven Perfect Weeks.
The old tools that don't work in crucifixion week are Rabbinic Judaism, the current Rabbinic calendar, Gregory's calendar (they didn't exist at that time in history), and some other things.
I listened to a preacher recently online spend about 10 minutes explaining to his congregation about how a day begins at sunset. But of course he was totally wrong because it begins at sunrise. But that wasn't the biggest problem he had. No sooner did he get them primed with a sunset day start, then he tosses the whole teaching into the garbage can with his next statement. He said, so now let's count the days between the crucifixion and the resurrection. Friday was day one, Friday night was night one, Saturday was day two and Saturday night was night two, Sunday was day three... . Huh???
Did you catch it? All the pastors do it. He taught them the current Rabbinic calendar and then immediately threw it into the garbage can and started counting days on the Gregorian calendar. And they all just sit there, with that deer in the headlight look, and nod their heads. Where are the frustrated ones? Where are the ones who are actually listening? Where are the ones who are actually thinking? Is anyone thinking when they listen to this confusion? Don't you want to stand up and holler "Whoa Nellie". Run that by me one more time, somethin' ain't right with this picture.
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