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Three Days and Three Nights

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by rstrats, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. domenic

    domenic New Member

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    What is your reason for this?
     
  2. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    domenic,

    re: "What is your reason for this?"

     

    To see if the 6th day crucifixion proponents' assertion that a stated specific number of days and a stated specific number of nights did not have to include at least a part of each one of the specific days and at least a part of each one of the specific nights might possibly have validity to it.

    BTW, why do you need to know my reason in order for you to provide the requested information?
     
  3. domenic

    domenic New Member

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    Why? Because I have a very busy life. I have many things to do during the day. I would have to go back and dig out information…this takes time. If you have a very good reason, or you do not know how to find information on your own, I will help you. It would be better to teach you how to find any type information so you can always do it.
     
  4. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    domenic,

    I haven't asked anyone to go back and dig out information. I've only asked if anyone "knows" of the writing referenced in the OP. You apparently do not, so you're off the hook so to speak. However, someone new looking in may "know" of some.
     
  5. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    But aren’t you assuming that Jesus rose on the third day after he was buried? But that’s not what Jesus taught.

    Look at Matthew 16:21. Here Jesus begins to teach his disciples about the things he would suffer and how he would be killed and would rise the third day: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

    Notice that Jesus said he would suffer many things of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised the third day. He didn't say he would be buried and be raised the third day. He included the things he would suffer at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and how he would be killed, and would be raised the third day. So the three days that preceeded his resurrection included more than just his burial in the tomb.

    Look at the way Mark 8:31 words this same teaching: "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark
    8:31)

    Rise again three days after what? After he was buried? No, rise again three days after he suffered many things, including being rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes and being crucified. So again, he included his suffering and rejection by the Jewish authorities and his crucifixion as part of the things he would endure before he rose from the dead.

    And Luke
    9:22 as well recorded this same teaching: "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day."

    Notice again that his rejection by the Jewish authorities and his crucifixion were included in the events that would occur then he would be raised the third day. Not the third day after he was buried, but the third day after he suffered all these things.

    But perhaps clearest of all is the testimony of those two men on the road to Emmaus whom Jesus appeared to on that first Easter morning. Remember? Jesus asked them what they were talking about that made them so sad? After suggesting that he must be a stranger in Jerusalem if he had not heard all about this, Cleopas says:

    "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him, but we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Luke 24:17-21

    Third day since what things were done? Since he was buried? No, the third day since Jesus was arrested and rejected by the chief priests and rulers and delivered to the Romans and beaten and cruficified and died. These men were speaking to Jesus on the very day Jesus was resurrected and it was the third day since ALL these things had been done, not the third day since his burial.

    And Jesus too, in the very last words he spoke to his disciples before his ascension, told them, "Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day."

    Notice that Jesus said he suffered, and rose the third day. His suffering did not begin when he was dead and laid in the tomb. It began when he was arrested that Thursday night in the garden of Gethsemane, was bound like a common criminal, dragged before Annas and then Caiaphas, accused, slapped, spit on, rejected by the Jewish authorities, then handed over to the Romans to be scourged, and finally hung on a cross to suffer for six long hours before his suffering was finished and he died.

    Jesus foretold that he would suffer all these things, and then rise the third day. And according to those two men on the road to Emmaus that Easter Sunday morning, that Sunday was the third day since all those things had been done.

    Now do the math backwards. If Sunday was the third day, then Saturday was the second day, and Friday was the first day of his suffering. And if Saturday night was the third night, then Friday night was the second night, and Thursday night, the night he was arrested after the Passover Seder, was the first night of his suffering “all these things.”

    And to explain what Jesus meant about “the heart of the earth,” he was referring to the prophecy in Psalm 74:12: “For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst (Hebrew qereb-heart) of the earth. Surely Jesus’ being beaten hours before his death was just as much a work of salvation … “and by his stripes we are healed.”

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer

    A Thursday night Seder, Friday crucifixion, and Sunday resurrection is the only scenario that fits with all the available data, and there is a wealth of data to consider.

    Here's a chronology of the Passion Week:

    Paschal Week Chronology

    6 days before Passover

    FridayNisan 8 late afternoon - Jesus arrives in Bethany from Jericho
    FridayNisan 9sunset – Sabbath supper at home of Simon

    5 days before Passover

    SaturdayNisan 9Sabbath -
    Jesus rests in Bethany; multitudes come from all over to see Jesus and Lazarus; chief priests and Pharisees plot to arrest both Jesus and Lazarus

    4 days before Passover

    SundayNisan 10 Palm Sunday, Jesus enters Jerusalem; lambs selected for Passover; Jesus cleanses Temple for the 2nd time

    3 days before Passover

    Monday Nisan 11 – Jesus teaches the multitudes

    2 days before Passover

    TuesdayNisan 12 – Jesus’ denunciation of Jerusalem; Mt. Olivet discourse

    1 day before Passover

    WednesdayNisan 13 - no record in Gospels how Jesus spent the day; possibly in Bethany and last night spent there
    WednesdayNisan 14 at sunset Jews begin to search their homes with candles for leaven

    Passover

    ThursdayNisan 14 morning – no leaven eaten after 10:00 a.m.
    ThursdayNisan 14 noon– leaven cemonially destroyed by burning or by dispersing to the winds
    Thursday Nisan 14afternoon – lambs sacrificed, Seder prepared

    1st Day of Unleavened Bread

    ThursdayNisan 15evening – Seder eaten (roasted Passover lamb and 1st Passover Chagigah eaten {breast and shoulder of voluntary thank-offering})
    Thursday
    Nisan 15 night – Jesus arrested, brought before priests and elders

    FridayNisan 15 morning – Jesus brought before Pilate
    FridayNisan 15 9:00 in the morning – Jesus crucified
    Friday Nisan 15 12:00 noon– darkness
    FridayNisan 15 3:00 in the afternoon – Jesus dies
    Friday Nisan 15 late afternoon – Jesus' body placed in tomb
    Friday - Nisan 15 - before sunset women purchase and prepare spices for Jesus' burial (festival sabbaths allowed certain work necessary for preparation for the feasts, shops were allowed to be open to provide pilgrims with necessary items to keep the feast); High Sabbath preparations made

    Sabbath (a "High Day")

    Friday Nisan 16 sunset – High Sabbath begins (2nd feast at which mandatory 2nd Passover Chagigah is eaten which Pharisees would have been excluded from eating had they become defiled that morning)
    FridayNisan 16 night – women rest

    SaturdayNisan 16Sabbath – women rest
    Saturday - Nisan 17 - night - Rabbinic Law requires that work not be resumed during night following Shabbat

    1st Day of the Week

    SundayNisan 17 morning early – women come to tomb, Jesus is risen


    Sources: The Gospels, Talmudic Tractate "Pesachim" and "Shabbat," Josephus "Antiquities" and "Wars."
     
  6. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist Many are called but few are chosen.

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    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. :) SHALOM
     
  7. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Pilgrimer,

    re: "But aren’t you assuming that Jesus rose on the third day after he was buried?"

    For the purpose of this topic, I'm not assumming anything. The 6th day crucifixion proponents say that the use of days and nights in Matthew 12:40 was a common Jewish idiom that did not have to include at least a part of each one of the days and/or at least a part of each one of the nights. I would simply like to see an idiom proponent provide some writing from that period or before that absolutely proves their assertion.

    BTW, you say: "Nisan 17 - night - Rabbinic Law requires that work not be resumed during night following Shabbat". Yet Mark 16:1 says: "Now when the Sabbath was passed, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices that they might come and annoint Him." Are you suggesting that they waited until day light to buy and prepare the spices so as not to violate the Rabbinic Law? John 20:1 says that Mary M. came to the tomb while it was still dark. Does that mean that she hadn't yet bought the spices?
     
  8. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    Understood. But the whole argument rests on the premise that the three days and three nights refer to the length of time the Lord was entombed.



    Actually, Mark 16;1 says the women "had bought" sweet spices; agorazo - aorist active indicative tense of the verb meaning a past action, used also in Matthew 13:46, 27:7, and Luke 14:18 for example. And when Mark 16:1 is compared to Luke 23:56 there is no doubt that Mark was reporting that the women had already purchased the spices when the Sabbath passed. This is one of a multitude of reasons that I prefer the King James for word study,even though the archaic language might be a bit cumbersome, the treatment of the nuances of Greek is superior to most other versions.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer







    That’s not correct. The “High Sabbath” was the weekly Sabbath (which was already holy) that fell on a feast day (thus making it doubly holy), ergo a “High” Sabbath. There were two week-long festivals, Passover and Tabernacles, on which a weekly Sabbath would always fall, and some years the other feast days could fall on a weekly Sabbath. It was the regular weekly Sabbaths that occurred on a feast day that were “High" Sabbaths.

    The festival Sabbaths were not as holy as the weekly Sabbath. On the festival Sabbaths certain work was permitted in order to keep the feast (Exodus 12:16). However, on the weekly Sabbath no work of any kind could be done, not even those things necessary to keep a feast. For example, if Passover (Nisan 14) fell on a Sabbath, all the preparations for the Seder, including slaying and roasting the lambs, would have to made on Nisan 13. So it was then, and so it is even today.

    So your speculation that the High Sabbath was the festival Sabbath is incorrect. The Sabbath that was a high day was the weekly Sabbath that fell on a feast day, and in the year of our Lord’s death, the weekly Sabbath fell on Nisan 16, the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer





    That’s not correct. A “high” Sabbath was a weekly Sabbath that fell on a feast day, thus making it doubly holy.
    In the year of our Lord’s death, the regular weekly Sabbath fell on the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 16.




    You are trying to force your chronology to fit a faulty premise. It wasn’t necessary for Jesus to die on the day of a feast in order to fulfill what that feast foreshadowed. And there is no more definitive proof of that than the fact that Jesus was crucified and died in the spring on Nisan 15, and it was the shedding of his blood on that day that makes atonement for sin, and yet the feast at which the Atonement sacrifice was made didn’t occur until the fall on Tishrei 10. Also, there were sacrifices and offerings that were required every day of every feast throughout the year, and yet, it was by that one sacrifice on that one day that Jesus fulfilled them all. Thus it is simply not true that Jesus had to fulfill the symbolism of a feast, or a sacrifice, on the day of the feast or at the time of the sacrifice.

    So while I agree with your basic chronology of a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection, I don’t think your correlation of Jewish dates is correct.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer



    I don't think that can be correct. All men are born spiritually dead and they can only be made spiritually alive by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
    [/quote]
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You need to look again Pilgrimer, the "high day" of John 19 was about the Passover high day...

    John 19:30-31
    30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished": and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.
    31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    (KJV)

    At sundown, the high day of the passover would begin (per Lev.23). It was not the regular weekly sabbath day.
     
  10. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    That "sabbath" was a high day, not that "feast day" was a high day. And the fact that it was the preparation also means it was the weekly sabbath as the only day ever called "the preparation" in Jewish writings was Friday. The day before a feast was and still is called the "eve" of the feast.

    Plus, Jesus had already eaten the Passover Seder which was slain on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and was eaten after sunset which was the beginning of Nisan 15. It was Nisan 15 that was the festival sabbath and the day on which Jesus was crucified. The following day was Nisan 16, which was not a festival sabbath but the regular weekly sabbath.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Lev 23:5-7
    5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
    6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
    7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
    (KJV)

    At evening on the preparation day began The LORD's passover. In the day prior to the evening they were to make preparations for the feast and sacrifice the passover in the evening, and then at sunset would be a holy convocation, a high sabbath with no work. The passover day was on the same day as the preparation, note above "at even is the LORD's passover" per the Lev.23:5 verse.

    The Lord's supper with His Apostles was in the evening before on that same preparation day. It's because the Hebrew reckoning for a day was from sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight. The 14th day of Nisan began at sunset, then the supper, then that night Jesus was delivered up, the trial held during the day, and He was crucified that following evening at the time the passover sacrifice was to be made. At sunset that evening began the "high day", a high sabbath which was not the regular weekly sabbath.


    John 19:31
    31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    (KJV)

    That "high day" meant a high sabbath (not the regular weekly sabbath); it would be the first day of Unleavend Bread and would begin at sundown after our Lord Jesus was crucified in the evening.


    John 19:40-42
    40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
    41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
    42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
    (KJV)

    Nelson's Bible Dictionary says the high day of the feasts were always begun on Friday, wrongly trying to link the regular weekly Friday sabbath always with a high day of the feasts per men's tradition. But in reality the high day could occur on any day of the week.

    Another simple way to know the high day sabbath of passover was not on a Friday is because there's no way to cram "three days and three nights" into the short period of Friday evening to Sunday morning. The three days and three nights our Lord said His body would be in the tomb cannot be changed. The solution becomes easy once one recognizes that the Hebrew reckoning for a day is what was used, from sunset to sunset.

    Our Lord Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday at evening...at sunset would begin Thursday the 15th of Nisan.

    So...
    Wednesday - began the previous sunset, the last supper that evening, Jesus delivered up that night, the trial during the middle of that day, and His crucifixion that evening nearing sunset.

    Sunset began Thursday - His body laid in the tomb just before sunset; from sunset to dawn = 1st night
    From Thursday dawn to Thursday evening = 1st day
    Friday began at sunset - from Friday evening to dawn = 2nd night
    Friday dawn to Friday evening = 2nd day
    Saturday began at sunset - from Saturday evening to dawn = 3rd night
    Saturday dawn to Saturday evening = 3rd day
    Saturday at sunset began Sunday - Christ rose sometime after sunset on Sunday and appeared to Mary prior to dawn on that day.
     
  12. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    That’s not correct. Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover Seder:

    “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover … and they made ready the Passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they ate …” Matthew 26:17-21

    “And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the Passover … and they made ready the Passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat …” Mark 14:12-18

    “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the Passover, that we may eat … and they made ready the Passover. And when the hour was come, he sat downLuke 22:7-14

    It is very clear from these verses that John and Peter went into the city and prepared the Passover Seder and that evening Jesus and the disciples ate the Passover. That night he was arrested and the next day he was crucified, on Nisan 15.

    I realize there are those who dispute these straightforward and clear verses, but I have found those arguments against it to be based on assumptions and misunderstandings about some things John was referring to in his Gospel.

    That certainly does seem to be a popular theory at present, but tell me, what do you base that on?

    As I stated in an earlier post, festival Sabbaths were not “high” days. What we are talking about is “greater” and “lesser” Sabbaths. Festival Sabbaths were considered “lesser” Sabbaths because certain work was allowed to be done on festival Sabbaths, those things necessary for keeping the feast (Exodus 12:16) such as lighting fires, carrying water and other things necessary to prepare the food. In fact, the shops and markets were allowed to be open on festival Sabbaths so that pilgrims to the feast could purchase those things necessary for the feast.

    The weekly Sabbath, however, was a “greater” Sabbath because on that day no work could be done at all, not even those things necessary to observe the feast if the Sabbath fell on a feast day. The weekly Sabbath laws superseded all other laws, even those pertaining to observing the feasts. So if a feast day fell on the Sabbath, everything necessary for observing the feast on that Sabbath had to be prepared the day before.

    And that brings me to “the preparation.” John says the reason the deaths of Jesus and the two thieves was hurried (the two thieves had their legs broken but Jesus was already dead) was because it was the preparation and the high Sabbath was approaching. As I’ve already pointed out, it wasn’t necessary, on the day before, to make preparations for the festival Sabbath, because the Law allowed all the preparations for the feast to be eaten on the festival Sabbath to be made on the festival Sabbath. “The preparation” was for the weekly Sabbath because those things necessary to keep the feast on the weekly Sabbath had to be prepared the day before.


    Or the simple truth is that Jesus never said he would be in the tomb three days and three nights. That’s conjecture on what he meant by the "sign" of Jonah. But I've addressed that in post #85, if you’d like to take a look and tell me what you think.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Exod 12:18
    18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
    (KJV)


    On the 14th Nisan in the evening is when Jesus ate the passover with His Apostles. He was delivered up that night, scourged the next day and crucified at the time the passover was to be sacrificed.


    Matt 12:40
    40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    (KJV)
     
  14. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    Unless you are suggesting there were two Passovers, Jesus could not have eaten the Passover the day before it was sacrificed.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The eating of the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan (Exo.12:6, 8, 18; Lev.23:5; Num.9:3; 28:16). The 15th was the high sabbath, the first day of the feast (Num.28:17).


    Matt 26:17
    17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto Him, "Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?"
    (KJV)

    That part in bold shows that was actually the 14th of Nisan, the time they were to eat the passover.


    Matt 26:20-21
    20 Now when the even was come, He sat down with the twelve.
    (KJV)

    Per Exo.12, the passover was to be eaten with the loins girded and staff in hand, in haste, and standing. Here our Lord Jesus sits down at evening, showing He did not eat the lamb of sacrifice. The bread and wine was the substitute, i.e., representing our Lord Himself.

    Likewise in Mark 14, it was the 14th of Nisan when they were to eat the passover. It was the preparation day we know because of John 19.

    So the Matthew, Mark, and Luke examples have to mean that the day of unleavened bread and time to kill the passover was 'nearing', or soon to come, and the actual time of the last supper and night Christ was delivered up being the 14th of Nisan. The 15th, which would begin when the preparation ended at sunset, with the sacrifice that evening, aligns with the very time our Lord Jesus was crucified and died on the cross at evening, and then rushed to be buried just before the 15th began.
     
  16. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    Oy vey! How can you turn things on it's head so? Look closely at the following verses. All three clearly state that the disciples prepared the passover for Jesus to eat and that evening sat down to eat it.


    “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover … and they made ready the Passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they ate …” Matthew 26:17-21

    “And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the Passover … and they made ready the Passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat …” Mark 14:12-18

    “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the Passover, that we may eat … and they made ready the Passover. And when the hour was come, he sat downLuke 22:7-14

    These verses are very simple, clear, and straightforward that the disciples prepared the Passover so that Jesus could eat it and that evening they sat down and ate the Passover. The verses which are giving some students problems do not in fact contradict these verses when they are viewed in their historical context. But it never ceases to amaze me why a student would allow some verses, which are clearly obscure in their meaning, to be used to overthrow what is so clearly stated in these verses. I can only surmise that a lot of bias is at the root of it.

    And I'm afraid you have the 2nd Temple observance confused as well. The 14th Nisan was not "the preparation for the Passover," the 14th Nisan was the Passover: “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the Lord.” (Numbers 28:16) Not the preparation day for the Passover, but the Passover.

    Indeed, there was no "preparation day" for Passover, the preparations began several days before with the selection of the Paschal lamb on Nisan 10. Then on Nisan 13 the house had to be searched diligently and every speck of leaven gathered up to be ceremonially disposed of on Nisan 14. And that doesn't count all the work that was necessary to prepare for the influx of pilgrims to the city: roads and bridges had to be repaired after the winter rains; sepulchers and grave stones had to be whitewashed so no pilgrim to the city accidentally contracted defilement (all of which was mandated by law and the practice to which Jesus referred on that last Passover when he condemned the hypocritical Pharisees and scribes calling them "whited sepulchers"), temporary clay ovens had to be constructed throughout the city to roast the thousands of lambs for the Passover pilgrims, shops and the cattle markets were stocked with animals for sacrifice (because in addition to the Passover lambs, there were many other sacrifices and offerings made during the week-long feast), and every available spare room had to be readied and opened up for the use of pilgrims as well as weeds and brush removed in the camping areas outside the city walls for the overflow of pilgrims. It was quite a grand spectacle, preparing the city for the three annual feasts, but especially the first feast of the year after the rainy winter season and the most heavily attended feast of the year, Passover.

    But further, John was actually quite specific in his terminology when he said, "And now when the evening was come, because it was the preparation (paraskeue), that is, the day before the Sabbath (prosabbaton) ..."

    The days of the week didn't have names, they were numbered after the Sabbath: 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th day, and 5th day. But the sixth day was called prosabbaton (Sabbath eve) in Greek and arubta-eve (Sabbath eve) in Aramaic. So John was actually clarifying that the preparation was the 6th day using the common name for what we call Friday.

    The day before a feast was always called the eve of whatever feast it was, for example, Passover eve, or Pentecost eve, or Trumpets eve. Just was we call the day before Christmas, Christmas eve.

    On your comment that the Lord's last supper couldn't have been a Passover Seder because they "sat down" to eat, again, you have to look at the common practice during 2nd Temple period. The Jews had not eaten the Passover with their loins girded and their staffs in hand since the night they hurriedly left Egypt. In fact, except for the first anniversary, the Jews did not celebrate a Passover feast again until after the 40 years they wandered in the wilderness, when they came into the land, and were circumcised. And from that day forward they ate the Passover reclining, or "in leisure, as became free men." According to the Mishna Tractate “Pesachim 10:1,” even the poorest in Israel could not eat the Passover except in a reclining position, exactly as described in the Gospels. The post-Egptian Passover (what came to be called the "permanent" Passover) was not a hurried meal eaten standing up, but a leisurely meal that lasted 2 or 3 hours, and still is today.

    Now I realize that you may have a different take on what the Scriptures meant about all this, but what you have to understand is that when you are dealing with matters of history, it's not what you or I think the Scriptures mean, it's how did the Jews at the time of Jesus understand the Scriptures about all these things and how did they actually observe the feasts. Because that determines for us how the last week of the Lord's life played out, regardless of our opinions.

    And let me mention that all the historical issues I mentioned come from Josephus as well as the vast body of Talmudic Tractates. I have however, relied on two recent works in my years of research, that of Joachim Jeremias: (Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus: An Investigation into Economic & Social Conditions During the New Testament Period, trans. F. H. Cave and C. H. Cave (1969; German ed.: 1967), a recognized authority on 2nd Temple Judaism, as well as the works of Alfred Edersheim: "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah," and also "The Temple and It's Ministry and Services at the Time of Christ.," as well as "Sketches of Jewish Social Life in the Days of Christ." Both men are considered foremost authorities in the field of New Testament history.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    All well and good, but none of that solves the riddle you're still having.

    Furthermore, HOW God gave His feasts to be observed certainly out-weighs Jewish historical practicies. We're not talking about Jewish tradition when Christ Jesus recognized the passover timing. He would not break His Own commandments for its timing and observance. The Jews did not always follow God's commandments, so surely you wouldn't want to contest that point.

    And furthermore, because John 19 states it was the preparation, that is in relation to passover timing per the OT Scripture examples I gave...

    Exod 12:3-7
    3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:


    On the 10th of Nisan they were to gather a lamb, but not sacrifice it yet.
    4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
    5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
    6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.


    They were to keep the lamb up until the 14th of Nisan, and sacrifice it on the evening of the 14th.

    7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
    (KJV)


    Then they were to smear its blood on the posts and then eat the lamb.

    Exod 12:16-19
    16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.


    The first day of unleavend bread was to be a a high sabbath ("holy convocation"). That was not the 14th of Nisan, but the 15th of Nisan, the first day of the feast. The preparation day of John 19 was in prep for this 15th day that would begin at sunset, which is why they rushed to bury the body of my Lord Jesus before the sun went down.

    Matt 27:62-66
    62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
    63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
    64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
    65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
    66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
    (KJV)


    When Mary Magdalene went to visit Jesus' tomb after the sabbath, it was after the regular weekly sabbath, not the high sabbath of the 15th of Nisan. The above is why. The three days and three nights had passed, which included the passing of the high sabbath of the 15th, and the regular weekly sabbath of Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. That is another Scripture witness of the three days and three nights being literal like Jesus said. (And because His enemies were bent on proving those three days and three nights gives even more... weight to that period being a fact, and not mere supposition).

    Jesus' body must have been buried in haste, because Mary and those with her had brought spices to the tomb on the first day of the week after the normal weekly sabbath to finish the burial procedure. They found the tomb stone moved away and Christ's body missing.

    Exo.12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
    18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


    On the 14th of Nisan, at evening, they were to start eating the unleavened bread. This aligns with the time of the last supper, the bread and the wine which Jesus offerred His Apostles. That had to be the 14th.

    19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
    (KJV)


    Then the seven days count would begin on the 15th.

    And that's the order which our Lord Jesus would follow.

    The Matthew, Mark, and Luke verses you quote does appear to present problems, but only by how the KJV translated them from the Greek manuscripts.
     
  18. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Pilgrimer,

    re: "Indeed, there was no 'preparation day' for Passover..."


    John 19:14 seems to say otherwise: "Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover..."
    veteran,

    re: "The first day of unleavend bread was to be a a high sabbath ('holy convocation'). That was not the 14th of Nisan, but the 15th of Nisan..."



    Matthew 26:17 says: "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus..."
    Are you saying that it was the 15th when the disciples came to the Messiah?
     
  19. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer Active Member

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    Oh, but I’m not the one trying to solve some “riddle,” and tossing out the clear and simple testimony of Matthew, Mark and Luke in the process. And I would caution you to not be so quick to do so either, there may be considerations that pertain to the last days and hours of our Lord’s life that you are simply not aware of … yet.

    Veteran, that’s not true. What we are talking about is not whether your opinion or my opinion about what Scripture means is correct. We are talking about how Passover was observed during the time of Christ. Now you can disagree with the manner in which the Jews observed the Passover, but you cannot change the historical facts of how they observed the Passover.

    But second, and more importantly, to suggest that the Jews were “breaking” the Law by keeping the Passover as they did, you should keep in mind before you go there that Mary and Joseph and later Jesus Himself went up to Jerusalem and kept the Passover with all the rest of Israel. So if you really want to insist that the Jews observed Passover at the wrong time and were thereby breaking the Law then you are calling the Lord Himself a lawbreaker too, for the Gospels record that at least twice after beginning his ministry he went up to Jerusalem and observed Passover along with all the Jews.


    Not so fast Veteran. “Holy convocation” means a “holy assembly,” not “high Sabbath.” That was a bit misleading to imply that.

    Look, there is no argument that the 15th Nisan was to be a lesser Sabbath, lesser in the sense that the work necessary to prepare the feast on those days was permitted by the Law (Exodus 12:16), whereas on the weekly Sabbath no work at all could be done, not even if it was a feast day. So let me ask you this: since God allowed the work necessary to prepare the feast for Nisan 15 to be done on Nisan 15, please explain why the Jews needed a “preparation day” to prepare the feast?

    The truth is the only day which required that preparations be made in advance was the weekly Sabbath when no work of any kind could be done, they couldn’t even fetch water or light a fire to cook food so on Friday they had to prepare enough food for two days. Just like in gathering the manna, they gathered each day just enough for that day, but on Friday they gathered enough for two days. So the only day, and the only Sabbath, when preparations needed to be made the day before, was the regular weekly Sabbath.

    And the weekly Sabbath was a “high” day because if a feast day fell on Saturday, then the commandment for Saturday superseded the ordinances of the feast day and the food for the feast had to be prepared on Friday to be eaten on Saturday.

    And second, can you provide either Scripture or an example of historical use where Nisan 14 was ever called “the preparation”? I have shown you both Scripture and historical example where Nisan 14 was called “the Passover.” And I have also shown you an historical example where Friday was called “the preparation.” All you have provided is your opinion of what you think the Scripture meant.

    Oh, I agree that the three days and nights were literal, but I think you may have jumped to some conclusions about what events those three days and nights included. I posted a note about that and would appreciate it if you would read over it and share your thoughts.

    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16936-three-days-and-three-nights/?p=199994

    And keep in mind, Jesus saying he would be in the heart of the earth three days and nights was "the only sign that would be given" to that unbelieving generation. But he had many things to say to his disciples about those three days and nights and the events that would transpire before his resurrection on the third day. We understand what he meant because we have the Gospel accounts of what he taught the disciples and surely we should base our understanding on those teachings.

    You have a serious problem with your reckoning because you are saying they ate unleavened bread 8 days, not 7 as the Scripture commanded, and which you quoted but completely ignore.

    Perhaps some of the confusion comes in this: the Passover was not a feast, it was a sacrifice. It was slain on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and eaten that night which was the beginning of Nisan 15. Let me state that again: the Passover was eaten on the first night of unleavened bread. And for a total of 7 days the Jews ate unleavened bread. The first night they ate unleavened bread was Nisan 15 when they ate the Passover, and the last night they ate unleavened bread was Nisan 21. That’s 7 nights, not 8.

    There’s nothing wrong with the King James translation. There is only a lack of information available to the average student that leaves some people to make up their own version of Jesus’ life.

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer


    The preparation day “of” Passover, not the preparation day “for” Passover.

    There were no preparation days for the feasts. Even on the 1st and 7th days, which were lesser Sabbaths, the Law (Exodus 12:16) allowed the people to do that work which was necessary to prepare the food for the feast on those days, so it simply was not necessary to prepare for the feasts on the day before. The only day of the year when preparations had to be made in advance was on Fridays, every Friday, even the Friday of Passover. In the year of our Lord's death, Friday, the day of preparation, the eve of the Sabbath, fell on Nisan 15.


    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    No, it was the 14th when Jesus and His Apostles held the last supper. Remember, the 14th of Nisan began at sunset per the Hebrew reckoning of a day's start and end.

    The order was: 14th began at evening (sunset), they held the last supper, Jesus was delivered up that night and scourged, then still on the 14th morning and mid day He was crucified, and at evening He died on the cross, the very time of the 14th that the passover was to be sacrificed per Leviticus and Exodus.

    But there's a problem in the KJV, because it's suggesting Christ and His Apostles held the last supper on the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the 15th. And that's what Pilgrim is saying. I don't agree with how the KJV translators translated those Matt.26:17; Mark 14:12 verses. Further than why I've already shown, here's another reason why I don't agree with Pilgrim's interpretation of those specific Matt.26:17 and Mark 14:12 verses...

    Mark 14:1-2
    1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take Him by craft, and put Him to death.
    2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
    (KJV)



    The passover and unleavend bread was 2 days hence. Notice the chief priests said they did not want to do it on the feast day. Which feast day? The 15th of Nisan, which was the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, which was to be a "holy convocation", per Levitcus and Exodus, i.e., a high sabbath. So they meant to do it either before the 15th, or after it.


    Then we're given a bit more info on that idea here...

    Luke 22:1-7
    1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
    2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill Him; for they feared the people.
    3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
    4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him unto them.
    5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
    6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray Him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
    7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
    (KJV)



    Do you see there in verse 7 where it is CALLING the 14th of Nisan "the day of unleavened bread" with the day the passover was to be killed on the 14th?

    It's because of the commandment of Exo.12:18 that they were to eat unleavened bread on the 14th day of the month at.. evening. What did Jesus serve His Apostles at the last supper? Unleavened bread with wine. Just because they were to eat that per the commandment on the 14th, does not mean it was the 15th already. But if you read Matt.26:17 and Mark 14 thinking the 15th was meant, it will sound like the 15th had already started (yet these above Scripture clues are really there also).

    Matt 26:2
    2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
    (KJV)


    Our Lord Jesus said that to His Apostles. Note He said, "the feast of the passover" and linked it with the day He would be betrayed to be crucified. The meaning is not just the 15th day observance, but the WHOLE of the commandments which include the first eating of unleavened bread on the start of the 14th at evening (right after sunset of the 13th), and then the passover sacrifice on the 14th at evening before the next sunset to start the 15th.

    That has to be considered along with the Matt.26:17 etc. verses...

    Matt 26:17-20
    17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto Him, Where wilt Thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
    18 And He said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with My disciples.
    19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
    20 Now when the even was come, He sat down with the twelve.
    (KJV)


    They were preparing to eat the passover, that term being used for the first day they were to eat the unleavend bread at evening at the start of the 14th of Nisan, the day of the passover sacrifice later that same day.

    Mark 14:12
    12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
    (KJV)


    Notice the phrase "when they killed the passover". If you go straight to that verse without reading the previous verses of that chapter, then it suggests they had indeed already killed... the passover lamb, which would suggest that was the 15th when they held the supper. That's why I don't agree with how the KJV translators brought that from the Greek, because it actually is just a description of passover events, like, "And the first day of unleavend bread, when the passover was to be killed....", NOT "when the passover was killed". That's how I interpret it in relation to all these other Scriptures, and by what the chief priests words showed the timing then was.
     
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