Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Timtofly]

The time of Jacob's trouble does not mean that Jacob is still alive on earth. That simply refers to his descendants.
I never mentioned a harvest. The second coming is not before the trumpets. If you explain what you think the final harvest is, we might look at that.

Matthew 13

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The stage set after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus as Prince on earth with the angels sowing and reaping. Satan and his angels loosed from the pit. This scenario is called the final harvest. Jesus is on earth in person.

Matthew 24:30-31 Jesus is on the earth with His angels. Matthew 25:31-32 Jesus is on earth sitting on a throne in Jerusalem with His angels.

3 different aspects of Jesus on earth with His angels at the Second Coming. It is the final harvest because all of Adam's flesh and blood will physically die. They will be sent to eternal damnation or firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. The church is removed at the Second Coming. But many on earth will live during the Millennium. Not in Adam's dead corruptible sinful flesh. They will be judged and given eternal life. The sheep are changed, not allowed to keep living in sin. The wheat of Matthew 13 are changed humans. They will not bring Adam's sin into the Millennium.

The sheep: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The wheat: "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

So we see these are reasonable firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. We see they are gathered after Jesus is already on earth. They are chosen and sown after the Second Coming, not one second before. Because the church was gathered one second before the Second Coming while Jesus was on His way to earth. Angels do not currently harvest lost souls. The church has been the harvest gathers for the last 1992 years.

At the Second Coming, the church is no longer around to gather souls. The Second Coming is a totally different harvest and angels are necessary. Because these do not remain in sin and Adam's flesh and blood. The soul is removed from Adam's corruptible genetic body, and placed in God's permanent incorruptible physical body, to enjoy the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus as Prince.

 

[dad]

The last trump is the 7th trump, the same time the resurrection happens. There is no 8th trumpet!

The last of the seven is the seventh. There is also the trump of God. There were many trumpets in the OT. I don't think you can force the voice of the archangel to be the seventh trumpet of wrath? You may choose to adopt that opinion to make your doctrines seem to fit.

 

[dad]

Matthew 13

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The stage set after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

That is right, I think, that the final harvest is after He returns.

Jesus as Prince on earth with the angels sowing and reaping. Satan and his angels loosed from the pit. This scenario is called the final harvest. Jesus is on earth in person.

OK, I usually think of that as the return of Christ, but whatever.

3 different aspects of Jesus on earth with His angels at the Second Coming. It is the final harvest because all of Adam's flesh and blood will physically die.

I don't think so. There are still nations very much alive we rule over in that 1000 years.

They will be sent to eternal damnation or firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

You seem to be conflating the great white throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years with the time Jesus first returns.

The church is removed at the Second Coming.

Actually we come back with Him then.

But many on earth will live during the Millennium.

Didn't you just claim all men die?

Not in Adam's dead corruptible sinful flesh. They will be judged and given eternal life.

Oh, I see, you apparently think that the people on earth and nations are not actual mortals in the 1000 years! Well, if a child dies at 1000 years old, that seems mortal to me.

The sheep are changed, not allowed to keep living in sin.

Not sure what sheep you have in mind. The believers were raised already. The folks we rule over will still be rebels, some of them after the 1000 years.

The wheat of Matthew 13 are changed humans.

You might as well claim they are Martians.

They will not bring Adam's sin into the Millennium.

So you thought God ordered the wicked to surround the camp of saints at the end of the 1000 years?

The sheep: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The wheat: "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

Yes, there will be a final judgment after that 1000 years.

The soul is removed from Adam's corruptible genetic body, and placed in God's permanent incorruptible physical body, to enjoy the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus as Prince.

Not sure why people make stuff up. Is it fun or something?

 

[ewq1938]

The last of the seven is the seventh. There is also the trump of God.

All the trumps are trumps of God, with the 7th being the last trump.

 

[dad]

All the trumps are trumps of God, with the 7th being the last trump.

Except it ain't so because you say it is so.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So the voice of Jesus is like a trumpet, and it will be Jesus in the air calling at the Rapture.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last

The trumpets of wrath do not really fit the bill for the Rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Except it ain't so because you say it is so.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Can you see the dead are resurrected at this trump?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And this one?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the timeframe of the second coming with again, the dead in Christ resurrecting.

All of these are talking about what happens to the dead at the 7th and last trump.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh, I see, you apparently think that the people on earth and nations are not actual mortals in the 1000 years! Well, if a child dies at 1000 years old, that seems mortal to me.

No. Quite the contrary.

I never said they were mortal. That is your human pagan understanding of life and death.

Are you saying God cannot take life, or grant it?

Do you remember the story about a man named Adam and his wife Eve, who could never die. Well at least until Adam disobeyed God. Was God a liar or did Adam die? Adam would have never died if he continued to obey God, no?

The point is Adam did not die until disobedience. Not because of his physical body. You are basing death on physical ability. That is not the point. The point of death is disobedience to God.

"the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

So the only people dead are sinners. Do you think sinners should be allowed to live and sin spread? The point is disobedience is sin, and disobedience causes immediate death. People during the Millennium are not sinners nor have a sin nature. It has nothing to do with physiology. It is one's obedience to God. Disobey and your dead. That is the simple fact. Death does not come from sickness or old age.

 

[dad]

Can you see the dead are resurrected at this trump?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The believers are Raptured here apparently. That voice of Jesus will be in the last days. Not to be confused with the last trumpet of wrath which is later.

And this one?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So we reign a 1000 years with Him. That is of course after He and we return.

This is the timeframe of the second coming with again, the dead in Christ resurrecting.

Not sure what you think you see in Rev 20. Looks like believing people who died in the Trib are resurrected here. Nothing to do with the Rapture.

All of these are talking about what happens to the dead at the 7th and last trump.

The dead have things happen to them after the 1000 years, and some believers when He returns to earth, and the Bride before this time of wrath.

 

[farouk]

@dad It's important in Scripture that Jews, Gentiles and the church of God be viewed in their distinct nature; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

For example, the rapture is linked with the church in 1 Corinthians 11.26.

 

[ewq1938]

Not sure what you think you see in Rev 20. Looks like believing people who died in the Trib are resurrected here. Nothing to do with the Rapture.

That's where you are wrong. The rapture occurs RIGHT AFTER the resurrection does! The places the rapture in every passage where the dead in Christ resurrect.

 

[ewq1938]

@dad It's important in Scripture that Jews, Gentiles and the church of God be viewed in their distinct nature; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

That would be unbelieving Jews, unbelieving gentiles and a church composed of believing Jews and gentiles. The three are distinct but believers of the church ARE NOT DISTINCT.

 

[farouk]

That would be unbelieving Jews, unbelieving gentiles and a church composed of believing Jews and gentiles.

Agreed...

 

[dad]

No. Quite the contrary.

I never said they were mortal. That is your human pagan understanding of life and death.

Are you saying God cannot take life, or grant it?

He does not take our life one we are Raptured. We have eternal life. The man who dies at 100 years old in the millennium is not eternal or he would not die.

Do you remember the story about a man named Adam and his wife Eve, who could never die. Well at least until Adam disobeyed God. Was God a liar or did Adam die? Adam would have never died if he continued to obey God, no?

Remember jesus came to fix all that and give us eternal life?

So the only people dead are sinners.

The world will still be sinning in the 1000 years, such as those who surround the saints. If nations disobey (sin) they will have no rain and etc.

Do you think sinners should be allowed to live and sin spread? The point is disobedience is sin, and disobedience causes immediate death. People during the Millennium are not sinners nor have a sin nature. It has nothing to do with physiology. It is one's obedience to God. Disobey and your dead. That is the simple fact. Death does not come from sickness or old age.

What is sin but to disobey God?

 

[dad]

@dad It's important in Scripture that Jews, Gentiles and the church of God be viewed in their distinct nature; 1 Corinthians 10.32.

For example, the rapture is linked with the church in 1 Corinthians 11.26.

That is true. The Rapture is about the church. The Jews also have a time in the end when God finishes dealing with them. And there are plenty of non Jewish believers in the Tribulation. After the 1000 years, though, it seems like distinctions fade.

 

[dad]

That's where you are wrong. The rapture occurs RIGHT AFTER the resurrection does! The places the rapture in every passage where the dead in Christ resurrect.

Funny how you make a statement as if it were the final ruling on the matter, rather than as an opinion. Sorry I do not subscribe to the yo yo doctrine of going up in the air with Him only to come right back down. What, He could not change us on the ground!? Then when we look at the bigger picture we also see the best fit for other events such as the marriage supper is also with a pre wrath Raptura. We also come back down with Jesus from heaven. So we should not harp on interpreting the Rapture voice of Jesus trumpet of the last days as being the trumpet blown by an angel that is part of the seven wrath trumpets. People who do that, I guess, expect the Bride to be here in the wrath. (though they religiously insist on calling it something else at all costs)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Funny how you make a statement as if it were the final ruling on the matter, rather than as an opinion. Sorry I do not subscribe to the yo yo doctrine of going up in the air with Him only to come right back down. What, He could not change us on the ground!? Then when we look at the bigger picture we also see the best fit for other events such as the marriage supper is also with a pre wrath Raptura. We also come back down with Jesus from heaven. So we should not harp on interpreting the Rapture voice of Jesus trumpet of the last days as being the trumpet blown by an angel that is part of the seven wrath trumpets. People who do that, I guess, expect the Bride to be here in the wrath. (though they religiously insist on calling it something else at all costs)

You're both wrong. We will neither come back down to earth after being caught up nor will we be taken to heaven after that. Just as you correctly recognize that it makes no sense to be caught up only to come right back down, it also makes no sense to be caught up "in the air" only to then be taken to heaven after that. Why would that happen? Why not just be caught up directly to heaven and meet Him there?

This is the problem with Premillennialism, whether one is pre-trib or post-trib. Neither view can give a reasonable explanation for why we will be caught up to Christ "in the air" when He comes. But Amillennialsm has a reasonable explanation for it, which is that we will be caught up to meet Him in the air to avoid the wrath that will come down at that point which will result in "sudden destruction" by fire from which unbelievers "will not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12). After the heavens and earth are burned up at that point, then the judgment occurs (Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15) followed by believers inheriting the eternal new heavens and new earth (Rev 20:11-Rev 21:5).

 

[dad]

You're both wrong. We will neither come back down to earth after being caught up nor will we be taken to heaven after that. Just as you correctly recognize that it makes no sense to be caught up only to come right back down, it also makes no sense to be caught up "in the air" only to then be taken to heaven after that.
Why would that happen? Why not just be caught up directly to heaven and meet Him there?

Because He is coming for His Bride and the marriage supper is in heaven, not here.

But Amillennialsm has a reasonable explanation for it, which is that we will be caught up to meet Him in the air to avoid the wrath

Naturally He would rescue His Bride from that wrath on earth.

that will come down at that point which will result in "sudden destruction" by fire from which unbelievers "will not escape"

At what point? The fire that destroys the world is not till after the 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because He is coming for His Bride and the marriage supper is in heaven, not here.

The marriage supper might be prepared in heaven, but that doesn't mean it takes place there. Jesus will be coming down from heaven to meet us rather than us meeting Him there. What you're saying doesn't explain why we wouldn't just meet Him in heaven rather than "in the air" if we were just going to end up in heaven, anyway. So, what is your explanation for that?

Naturally He would rescue His Bride from that wrath on earth.

But what is the extent of the wrath? Just part of the earth or the entire earth as 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicates?

At what point? The fire that destroys the world is not till after the 1000 years.

That's correct, but Jesus will return after the thousand years. The context of the day of the Lord, according to 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 is in relation to the day Christ returns. That's why both Paul and Peter talked about being careful about how we live our lives and about our spiritual status because we don't want to be caught up in God's wrath that will come down on the day the Lord returns. It would make no sense for both Paul and Peter to give their readers that warning if the destruction they wrote about wouldn't even come down until 1000+ years after the return of Christ.

 

[dad]

The marriage supper might be prepared in heaven, but that doesn't mean it takes place there. Jesus will be coming down from heaven to meet us rather than us meeting Him there. What you're saying doesn't explain why we wouldn't just meet Him in heaven rather than "in the air" if we were just going to end up in heaven, anyway. So, what is your explanation for that?

We do not need to know why God does everything. Remember, He is raising physical bodies. While anything is possible with God, it seems to make sense to complete the journey to Heaeven for the Supper in new bodies rather than with graveclothes or etc.

But what is the extent of the wrath? Just part of the earth or the entire earth as 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicates?

The entire earth is here and being ruled by us for 1000 years. It is after this that the world is burned with fire from heaven and we have a new earth. Any wrath before that does not include destruction of the planet.

That's correct, but Jesus will return after the thousand years.

So he returns to stand on the mount of Olives and destroy the false prophest and beast and all who oppose Him 1000 years after He started to reign!?

The context of the day of the Lord, according to 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 is in relation to the day Christ returns.

Says who?
In the Rapture we go up, He does not come down yet.

That's why both Paul and Peter talked about being careful about how we live our lives and about our spiritual status because we don't want to be caught up in God's wrath that will come down on the day the Lord returns.

If we are careful enough to accept Jesus and His free gift, then we do not go through wrath. Let God worry about 'status'.

It would make no sense for both Paul and Peter to give their readers that warning if the destruction they wrote about wouldn't even come down until 1000+ years after the return of Christ.

Yes. We need to be saved to avoid the horrible time of wrath. That obviously includes the final destruction of the heaven and earth.

 

[Timtofly]

He does not take our life one we are Raptured. We have eternal life. The man who dies at 100 years old in the millennium is not eternal or he would not die.

Can you explain how a resurrection body describes being born as a child and living 100 years?

There is a stark contrast in a human who is resurrected, and one who is born through procreation.

So you as a resurrected human are not going to age into a child at any point after a resurrection. A child born in the Millennium is not going to be a resurrected person from some time in the recent past.


Do you not see the difference?

No one claims those resurrected will die. The claim is that some born during the Millennium will decide to disobey God. Thus they have to die, even if their body allowed them to live forever. It is not the state of the physical body.

It is the act of disobedience to God.

Obviously you don't keep dying every time you sin. You keep sinning because you are physically dead in corruptible flesh.

That will not be the reality in the Millennium. No one will be a sinner, nor in Adam's dead flesh and blood. But one can still choose to disobey God. They are just instantly dead.