Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

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Timtofly

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For a (anything) to be changed or broken mid way, there has to be a mid point. The tribulation is the mid point of the seven years. If you doubt that just double three and a half years and see what the total is.
And...so? Does that tell us where and when it happens?

Actually I think we need a team of translators to interpret this, or at least what you think it might mean.

That does not mean it doesn't exist. Daniel already told us about that. We know that is when the abomination is set up.
This is not A Scriptural proof.

I asked for a verse or passage not your logical conclusion. A week of days can be split in half. 3.5 days at the beginning of 42 months. 3.5 days at the end of the 42 months.

The 2 witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days per Revelation 11. That is the last half of a set of days. In the midst of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, a set of days, the week is cut in half. The week is concluded after the 42 month interruption of desolation and abomination carried out by Satan and the FP per Revelation 13, 17, and 18.

John gives us in the text 42 months and 3.5 days. You argue for two sets of 42 months. I have pointed out two sets of 3.5 days separated by 42 months. For 3.5 days after the 7 Trumpet sounds, all the kingdoms belong to Christ. Then after 3.5 days God allows Satan 42 months.

The reason being; those beheaded during the 42 months do decide to reject Satan and accept being beheaded to follow God, in the act of having their head chopped off. Some souls are still found in the Lamb's book of life that are given this choice. If there are no souls left deemed by God to make this choice then no 42 months will be declared. That is confirming the Atonement Covenant. Jesus as Prince is confirming with God, because God is all knowing. Or you can put it, just confirming with His own all knowing ability as God. Until the Second Coming, and the final harvest, the harvest cannot be declared complete. Confirming with the many, as those who would be beheaded. The Atonement would be extended during a 42 month period to allow many to remain in the Lamb's book of life instead of being harvested in the winepress of the Lamb.

In the Hebrew of Daniel 9:27 this week can be translated as years or days. In fact some translations use years. Some use days. The KJV is neutral.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading"

It does not take a dogmatic stance either way. At least not on the surface. The actual wording should be a "set of". Weeks in Hebrew is referring to sets of. Unless one is going to say it was only 70 literal weeks, 490 literal days, and not years at all. In English one would always associate a week with 7 days. Yet most today as English speakers if told it meant the last week it would be the last week. There is no indication in the Hebrew that "last" should be used as a modifier of this point. That is jumping to assumptions. Many want the verse to say: and this 70th week is when he will..... That is not what the Hebrew says. It is literally a separate thought, a separate week from the 70 mentioned earlier. There is no modifier text that joins this verse with the thoughts of the other 3 verses meaning the same time period. Verse 26 leaves us with Messiah being cut off. The only connection is as Messiah, the Prince is still the subject doing the action. In fact the Prince part is described as "to come". Being Prince would not be part of the Messiah prior to the Messiah being "cut off". The people of the Prince are still the same people of the Messiah. And still the same people of Daniel. Certainly not the same generation, but the same people overall, Israel.

So there are some translations that would not back up your point even in Daniel 9:27. Perhaps you would have to use a version you would for the most part disagree with to prove your point? Just guessing because you have yet to give a proof from Scripture. If you only use the KJV then you have been convinced this week is the 70th week, yet you still cannot place it in the NT Scripture. Nor can you account for all the known variables.

Yes, if you use a translation that says years, it would be their words against a translation that says days. One set of translators agreed with years. One set of translators agreed with days. Then a third set decided to just leave it as the original "week" "set" without defining it as days or years. They left it up to the reader or Holy Spirit. Or thought it was the 70th week, and left it at that. The other two sets may have even voted on it. Within the group of translators there was disagreement. I have no idea, just pointing out an observation. Never felt compelled to follow every reason every translation evolved/came into being.

You seem farely confident you figured something out on your own. Or you were taught something, and nothing has changed the teaching you are convinced is correct.

I never said 42 months cannot be the second half of 7 years. I want to see from Scripture when the first 42 months is declared. Yet even logically how can the last half of years interrupt themselves? Would they not just happen any ways? An interruption by definition, means at some point the last half would have to complete after the interruption. The interruption could even be a random amount of time. A few days, a few years, it could even be a few centuries. The interruption does not change nor define the original set of your alledged 7 years. There is no denying that there could have been 3.5 years leading up to the Cross that was interrupted for the fulness of the Gentiles at the Cross. When Christ returns the last 3.5 years would then be completed. That would explain Daniel 9:26. It would not explain Daniel 9:27. For one reason between the Cross and now has been almost 2000 years. That is definitely not 42 months.

If there is a plausible explanation that Jesus as Prince and Messiah covers a 7 year period, why is there a need to use the same explanation for covering both verse 26 and 27. It is like an algebra equation with missing variables, and known variables. We know of a 7 year period. We know of a 3.5 day period. We know of a 42 month period. We know one period will be shortened, meaning no longer a fixed period of time. We know an interruption by definition cannot change the original, so the interruption itself cannot be used to replace the original set time.

1992 years later we can see one interruption that did indeed interrupt a set time period for Jesus the Messiah the Prince. For the most part we agree that Jesus as Messiah had 3.5 years on earth as the ministry to that effect. The interruption would mean as Prince, the last 3.5 years would be put on hold. Paul explained that as the fulness of the Gentiles. The fulness of the Gentiles is certainly not an interruption equal in scope to the abomination of desolation. Israel was not set aside, Judah, the Jews were set aside. The temple was not turned into an abomination. The OT economy ceased to exist altogether. It was not the OT economy that was put on hold. According to Hebrews it was done away with. The only thing put on hold, interrupted was Jesus as Prince. We still have a 42 month interruption where there will be an abomination of desolation that will corrupt a temple and throne for 42 months. Not the last half of the time interrupted. Because the second interruption is in days, because we have to account for the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. When we read about the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 10, it mentions the days of the sounding. Not the days surrounding or leading up to, but the sound is equated to days. Since Daniel 9:27 can be days or years, Revelation 10 gives us a reason why it could be days. Scripture interprets Scripture. Revelation 10 does not say the years of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. That would mean the interruption of 42 months would have to be declared. The 7th Trumpet is supposed to sound for one week of days, and then the Millennium would start.

Now we come to the 42 month interruption in Revelation 13, and now we see why Daniel 9:27 calls it an abomination and desolation. The only reason being, during this time for a soul to remain in the Lamb's book of life is that one must fit the definition of being beheaded literally. The choice to literally remain in the Lamb's book of life is to literally have one's head cut off. Now if this is all figurative, why is this interruption an abomination and desolation? Is that also figurative? The mere thought of an alter call that demands one's head to be removed is disgusting. In fact many make up terms not found in Revelation a more agreeable way called martyrdom. They were martyred for their faith. No, these were literally beheaded as an act of faith. To avoid the mark, one must remove the head. If one receives the mark, removing the head will not work. Having the mark already, removed one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Removing the head would just be suicide, not the ability to put one's name back into the Lamb's book of life. Also having belief will not prevent the mark. Having faith in God is not mentioned as a way to escape the mark. The only thing that avoids the mark is the removal of one's head. One can justify and make it sound more pleasant by calling them martyrs, but the fact remains, they have to have their heads cut off, to be resurrected from that physical death. There is no other physical death type they are resurrected from. Just dying is not the point. Being beheaded is the point.
 

dad

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This is not A Scriptural proof.

I asked for a verse or passage not your logical conclusion. A week of days can be split in half. 3.5 days at the beginning of 42 months. 3.5 days at the end of the 42 months.
Surely you are familiar with the prophesy in Daniel that says he will break the covenant in the middle of the seven years? That is Scripture and therefore Scriptural proof. The Great Tribulation or second part of that 7 years is 3/12 years.
The 2 witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days per Revelation 11. That is the last half of a set of days.
No. The 3 days are three days. They do not lay dead for months. The last seven years are real years also, as is the Great Tribulation. The 1260 days in the Trib are also given as months so there can be no mistake.
In the midst of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, a set of days, the week is cut in half.
That is nonsense. The trumpet is after the tribulation, ending it and the witnesses are IN the tribulation, prophesying in it.
The week is concluded after the 42 month interruption of desolation and abomination carried out by Satan and the FP per Revelation 13, 17, and 18.
There is no interruption. Once the seven years starts, the clock is ticking. In the middle of that seven years the covenant is broken and the abomination set up. What is the reason you had to invent some 'interruption'? Is there something in your indoctrination that requires that to make things fit?
John gives us in the text 42 months and 3.5 days.
Not in any way does he do anything remotely similar to that.

You argue for two sets of 42 months.
I point out that the middle of the last week is when the Great Trib happens, and there is no pause button on the clock.

I have pointed out two sets of 3.5 days separated by 42 months.
No, you invented that lunacy whole of cloth. 100% fiction.
For 3.5 days after the 7 Trumpet sounds, all the kingdoms belong to Christ.
When Jesus returns all kingdoms are His and always will be!
Then after 3.5 days God allows Satan 42 months.
Total fairy tale.

Your post was too long, maybe I'll look at the rest later.
 

Timtofly

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Surely you are familiar with the prophesy in Daniel that says he will break the covenant in the middle of the seven years? That is Scripture and therefore Scriptural proof. The Great Tribulation or second part of that 7 years is 3/12 years.

No. The 3 days are three days. They do not lay dead for months. The last seven years are real years also, as is the Great Tribulation. The 1260 days in the Trib are also given as months so there can be no mistake.
That is nonsense. The trumpet is after the tribulation, ending it and the witnesses are IN the tribulation, prophesying in it.

There is no interruption. Once the seven years starts, the clock is ticking. In the middle of that seven years the covenant is broken and the abomination set up. What is the reason you had to invent some 'interruption'? Is there something in your indoctrination that requires that to make things fit?
Not in any way does he do anything remotely similar to that.

I point out that the middle of the last week is when the Great Trib happens, and there is no pause button on the clock.

No, you invented that lunacy whole of cloth. 100% fiction.

When Jesus returns all kingdoms are His and always will be!
Total fairy tale.

Your post was too long, maybe I'll look at the rest later.
The words "broken covenant" is not found in Daniel any where. Surely you would have quoted it. You base your whole supposition on pure human speculation. You call my post nonsense, yet you have it totally wrong. Sorry my explanation was too long. Obviously a one line retort is about all this human nonsense about a broken treaty or covenant is all that is deserved. There is no 7 year covenant, and you have no proof in Scripture.

You are defending nonsense.
 

dad

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The words "broken covenant" is not found in Daniel any where.
Daniel 11:28
Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

So we know he is against the covenant.

We also know he conspires with others of like mind.

Daniel 11:30
For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

We also know the covenant is for seven years, and that in the middle of that time the beast sets up the abomination.
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, unless you claim the covenant was about making Israel cease it's sacrifices, and defiling their holy place, and making it desolate, then he breaks the covenant in the middle of the seven years!
There is no 7 year covenant,
As shown there certainly is. Try debating seriously.
 

dad

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The reason being; those beheaded during the 42 months do decide to reject Satan and accept being beheaded to follow God, in the act of having their head chopped off. Some souls are still found in the Lamb's book of life that are given this choice. If there are no souls left deemed by God to make this choice then no 42 months will be declared.
All can make a choice now and also in that last seven years. That is why witnesses preach and ask people to repent.
The Atonement would be extended during a 42 month period to allow many to remain in the Lamb's book of life instead of being harvested in the winepress of the Lamb.
That is made up. Nothing is extended, that is why we are given the very days.

In the Hebrew of Daniel 9:27 this week can be translated as years or days. In fact some translations use years. Some use days. The KJV is neutral.
We know that the AC works with others to break the covenant I gave the verses a few posts ago. We know the abomination is placed in the middle of the seven years. there is zero possibility the last seven years could be days or months or anything else. We have a precise count for half the time!
Unless one is going to say it was only 70 literal weeks, 490 literal days, and not years at all.
The word is 'sevens'. The ONLY fit is years. The same prophesy told the years till Jesus would be here. No chance it was days or etc. None.


In English one would always associate a week with 7 days. Yet most today as English speakers if told it meant the last week it would be the last week. There is no indication in the Hebrew that "last" should be used as a modifier of this point.
One clue for you is that that will bring in everlasting righteousness and an end to sin. That only happens in those last days.
The people of the Prince are still the same people of the Messiah.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

So the people of Jesus come and destroy the sanctuary and city? No. Neither do we confirm a covenant..etc.
I never said 42 months cannot be the second half of 7 years. I want to see from Scripture when the first 42 months is declared.

If the last half of seven years is 42 months, how long is the first half?
Yet even logically how can the last half of years interrupt themselves?
They don't do any such silly thing. The last half merely follows the first half. It also is the time of the Great Tribulation.
Would they not just happen any ways? An interruption by definition, means at some point the last half would have to complete after the interruption.
The abomination Daniel spoke of and Jesus is what marks the start of the last half. That is not an interruption but a stage in that last seven years. All part of what is in prophesy.

The interruption could even be a random amount of time. A few days, a few years, it could even be a few centuries.
There is no interruption. No idea why you try to invent one out of thin air. The clock starts and keeps ticking to the end once the last seven years start. There is no pause. No interruption.

If there is a plausible explanation that Jesus as Prince and Messiah covers a 7 year period, why is there a need to use the same explanation for covering both verse 26 and 27. It is like an algebra equation with missing variables, and known variables. We know of a 7 year period. We know of a 3.5 day period. We know of a 42 month period. We know one period will be shortened, meaning no longer a fixed period of time. We know an interruption by definition cannot change the original, so the interruption itself cannot be used to replace the original set time.
There is no interruption or replacing anything whatsoever. Nothing in that last seven years is shortened at all by even an hour. God knows that day and hour. That time IS what man's time was shortened TO.

1992 years later we can see one interruption that did indeed interrupt a set time period for Jesus the Messiah the Prince. For the most part we agree that Jesus as Messiah had 3.5 years on earth as the ministry to that effect. The interruption would mean as Prince, the last 3.5 years would be put on hold.
The time Jesus was here thousands of years ago has nothing to do with the last seven years.
Since Daniel 9:27 can be days or years
No it can not. There is no possibility Jesus was here weeks or days after the prophesy! Nor any chance that an end to sin and everlasting righteousness will come to earth and Israel. Nor any seven year covenant that happened days after the prophesy, or weeks, etc etc etc. That is not even in the realm of possibility or reason.
, Revelation 10 gives us a reason why it could be days.
No, nothing at all that is remotely associated with that.
Revelation 10 does not say the years of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.
More utterly made up nonsense. No trumpet blows for several years.

Now we come to the 42 month interruption in Revelation 13,
No we do not come there, there is no such thing. You made that up.
and now we see why Daniel 9:27 calls it an abomination and desolation.
No, he calls the abomination of desolation the abomination of desolation, not some pipe dream that you seek to weave together that results in a tower of confused babble.
The choice to literally remain in the Lamb's book of life is to literally have one's head cut off.
The way to heaven is Jesus, not lopping off a head.
Now if this is all figurative, why is this interruption an abomination and desolation?
There is no interruption.
Is that also figurative?
Your interruption is not figurative it is invented.

In fact many make up terms not found in Revelation a more agreeable way called martyrdom. They were martyred for their faith. No, these were literally beheaded as an act of faith. To avoid the mark, one must remove the head.
Many have their head removed for them, they do not lop it off themselves. Many others are protected. Those who are killed in that time have a special blessing. (beheading does not save them or anyone)
If one receives the mark, removing the head will not work.
Of course if the government of the day wanted a head removed it would not matter if there was a little mark on it or not!
Being beheaded is the point.
More lunacy.
 

Timtofly

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Daniel 11:28
Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

So we know he is against the covenant.

We also know he conspires with others of like mind.

Daniel 11:30
For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

We also know the covenant is for seven years, and that in the middle of that time the beast sets up the abomination.
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, unless you claim the covenant was about making Israel cease it's sacrifices, and defiling their holy place, and making it desolate, then he breaks the covenant in the middle of the seven years!
As shown there certainly is. Try debating seriously.
You are proving my point. Being against this holy covenant is the direct opposite of confirming this holy covenant. Try having an honest and logical conversation.

Confirm: establish the truth or correctness of (something previously believed, suspected, or feared to be the case).

Once again there is nothing in this verse to declare a broken trust, nor that this is a 7 year treaty just made. The Atonement was purchased on the Cross and covers all of humanity's existence while Adam's descendants are in a dead corruptible sinful state.

Your "he" in your verses cannot be the "he" in Daniel 9:27. Your he is totally against this Atonement Covenant with mankind. He would never confirm it nor even originate this Covenant. Only God provided such an Atonement Covenant with humanity, and your verses confirm different "he's".

Daniel 9:27 is not a 7 year treaty. Daniel 9:27 is the very Atonement of the Lamb's book of life. It was Sealed in a Book before creation even began. It can not be broken. The only thing that can happen is that after the 7th Seal is removed, names can also be removed.

At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet if all names have been removed that can be, the Millennium can start. So Jesus as Prince is confirming the covenant with the many to make that determination. This abomination of desolation is God's doing and by extension of Jesus the Prince this is carried out. Jesus is not Satan either.

God simply let's Satan have 42 months. This is known by God since before creation and all time. But God also knows the 42 months are not needed. What is a truth is we do not know either way. Gabriel just told Daniel the worse case scenario. The outcome has not been determined. It simply was given as one foreknown outcome.

If we were told the best outcome and the worse one happened would we have felt better? What will definitely happen is the confirmation of the covenant, but the desolation and abomination is not the event yet. In fact the longer the Second Coming has not happened the probability of those 42 months gets lower. But even if one person is around to get beheaded instead of taking the mark, those taking the mark will still get all 42 months. A deal between God and Satan cannot be broken no matter how much you all protest this 42 months is a broken covenant by a he sent by Satan. Your verses prove this is a holy covenant, the Atonement of the Cross, and not some alledged "plot" by Satan and some human.

There is no interruption or replacing anything whatsoever. Nothing in that last seven years is shortened at all by even an hour. God knows that day and hour. That time IS what man's time was shortened TO.

The time Jesus was here thousands of years ago has nothing to do with the last seven years.
No it can not. There is no possibility Jesus was here weeks or days after the prophesy! Nor any chance that an end to sin and everlasting righteousness will come to earth and Israel. Nor any seven year covenant that happened days after the prophesy, or weeks, etc etc etc. That is not even in the realm of possibility or reaso

Stop making the Atonement of the Cross for all mankind, some weird 7 year treaty at the Second Coming. It is you with a nonsensical definition of the Atonement of the Cross.
 

dad

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You are proving my point. Being against this holy covenant is the direct opposite of confirming this holy covenant. Try having an honest and logical conversation.
Being a liar like his father is what he is all about. By the time he breaks it, it is years into the covenant. The covenant is a means to an end. Soon as he feels he can get away with it, he breaks it.


Once again there is nothing in this verse to declare a broken trust, nor that this is a 7 year treaty just made.

They do not break the treaty until 3/12 years into it. Obviously that is not 'just made'.


The Atonement was purchased on the Cross and covers all of humanity's existence while Adam's descendants are in a dead corruptible sinful state.
Is there a point to that, which relates to the prophesy discussion?

Your "he" in your verses cannot be the "he" in Daniel 9:27. Your he is totally against this Atonement Covenant with mankind.

The covenant that is broken is not related to atonement. It has to do with Israel.

He would never confirm it nor even originate this Covenant.
Except he is called the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:22
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
He makes this agreement then works deceitfully like the little rat he is.

Daniel 11:23
And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people
Daniel 9:27 is not a 7 year treaty. Daniel 9:27 is the very Atonement of the Lamb's book of life.
The covenant was for 7 years. The atonement is for eternity!
It was Sealed in a Book before creation even began. It can not be broken. The only thing that can happen is that after the 7th Seal is removed, names can also be removed.
Can't join you in those depths of fantasy.
At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet if all names have been removed that can be, the Millennium can start.
It is not the imaginary losing of salvation you invented that starts the 1000 year reign of Jesus. It is Him returning to earth.
So Jesus as Prince is confirming the covenant with the many to make that determination. This abomination of desolation is God's doing and by extension of Jesus the Prince this is carried out. Jesus is not Satan either.
God simply let's Satan have 42 months.
That is a time when He allows the total control of earth almost to the devil and his forces. Before this is still the wrath and plenty of horrible things happen, and the world is dominated by evil in this time, even if there is still resistance.
This is known by God since before creation and all time. But God also knows the 42 months are not needed
No idea what that means. Of course if God gives the world time it is needed.
Gabriel just told Daniel the worse case scenario.
False. Gabriel spoke what God told him to, and prophesy is not a suggestion or what if scenario. It is what happens told to us before it happens.
But even if one person is around to get beheaded instead of taking the mark, those taking the mark will still get all 42 months.
Complete made up delusion.

A deal between God and Satan cannot be broken no matter how much you all protest this 42 months is a broken covenant by a he sent by Satan.
God allows Satan a certain time, that is not making any deal with the devil, that is putting a short leash on him - like it or lump it!
 

Timtofly

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Being a liar like his father is what he is all about. By the time he breaks it, it is years into the covenant. The covenant is a means to an end. Soon as he feels he can get away with it, he breaks it.

They do not break the treaty until 3/12 years into it. Obviously that is not 'just made'.

Is there a point to that, which relates to the prophesy discussion?

The covenant that is broken is not related to atonement. It has to do with Israel.

Except he is called the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:22
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
He makes this agreement then works deceitfully like the little rat he is.

Daniel 11:23
And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people

The covenant was for 7 years. The atonement is for eternity!
Can't join you in those depths of fantasy.
It is not the imaginary losing of salvation you invented that starts the 1000 year reign of Jesus. It is Him returning to earth.
So Jesus as Prince is confirming the covenant with the many to make that determination. This abomination of desolation is God's doing and by extension of Jesus the Prince this is carried out. Jesus is not Satan either.
That is a time when He allows the total control of earth almost to the devil and his forces. Before this is still the wrath and plenty of horrible things happen, and the world is dominated by evil in this time, even if there is still resistance.
No idea what that means. Of course if God gives the world time it is needed.

False. Gabriel spoke what God told him to, and prophesy is not a suggestion or what if scenario. It is what happens told to us before it happens.
Complete made up delusion.

God allows Satan a certain time, that is not making any deal with the devil, that is putting a short leash on him - like it or lump it!
I agree your imaginative scenario makes sense, but notice it is still an imagination, not a Scripturally sound scenario. If you reject my reasoning, then you will have to convince me otherwise.

Since you think I am wrong, telling me I am wrong, is not very convincing. I have already accepted that fact. Now you can come up with your defense. Since I know you have no defense, but only your constant repetition of your account, that seems to be your only reasonable defense.

You are trying to prove with a verse a 7 year covenant is destroyed. Your verse just says a prince having a covenant is destroyed. How does a dead prince prove your point?


"And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant."

All this verse claims is death and destruction. If the prince of the covenant is broken, that normally means killed or destroyed. Besides you have no context of what this covenant even is that was just destroyed. Your claim is an alledged AC breaks a covenant. If the AC of the covenant was destroyed, who is the destroyer? This destruction does not even prove your point, as you cannot both destroy this AC and have him be the one doing the destruction at the same time. An AC would not have an holy covenant. The only covenant in Daniel 9 is the Atonement of the Cross. That is the only act of God in human history with both a Messiah and Prince associated with this promise:

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Are you claiming an alledged AC is the one going to bring this prophesy to fruition? Which prince of the covenant will be destroyed? What covenant?
 

dad

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You are trying to prove with a verse a 7 year covenant is destroyed. Your verse just says a prince having a covenant is destroyed. How does a dead prince prove your point?
We learn it is a seven years covenant that is broken mid way after 3 and a half years. We learn when it is broken the beast stands in the holy place and has his image set up. We learn that after the covenant is broken believers in Israel must flee immediately for their lives. We learn God protects them in the wilderness. We learn a lot of things. The beast confirms the covenant with many. That does not mean apparently that he is the only prince who agreed to it.
"And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant."

All this verse claims is death and destruction. If the prince of the covenant is broken, that normally means killed or destroyed

The time the prince of the covenant is broken is in the end by Jesus.
In the NIV it says this

Daniel 11:22
Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed.

So if this translation is accurate, that means 'a' prince or signatory of the covenant is defeated. So the author of the covenant is not the only one involved, there are princes who sign on.
We can see that he is deceitful, and is against the 'holy' covenant.
Daniel 11:30
Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.
We know it involves Israel, for many reasons.
Daniel 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


. Besides you have no context of what this covenant even is that was just destroyed.
See above. When it is broken the sacrifices cease, and he desecrates the temple. That is when the abomination is placed, that Jesus spoke about.
Your claim is an alledged AC breaks a covenant. If the AC of the covenant was destroyed, who is the destroyer?
If the NIV translation I cited above is correct, then it is a leader who signed on to the deal that gets destroyed. No matter how we look at it, there is no problem. The bible says he confirms the covenant. Maybe he goes along with the deal although he hates it in his heart, and later sees to it that one of the big proponents of the deal get knocked out. (a prince of the covenant), One thing we know is that the beast does not get destroyed until Jesus takes care of that Personally.
An AC would not have an holy covenant.
That whole week (seven years) is the time when God deals with Israel in the end, bringing them to repent. The covenant involves Israel. Since it is called a holy covenant, it probably deals with the holy sites etc. The evil beast needs to agree to this big deal in order to gain total power. He hates it, but deceitfully signs on, and lies at the table, etc. Then, when the time is right, the treasonous lying snake breaks his word, and shows his true nature.
The only covenant in Daniel 9 is the Atonement of the Cross. That is the only act of God in human history with both a Messiah and Prince associated with this promise:
The price Jesus paid was not some seven year deal that gets broken! There is no possible fit at all there.
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
All prophesy including this one is NOT sealed yet and never has been yet. The world is full of sin, and no one made an end to it yet. Jesus made an end to our sins, not sin in the world - yet. Only when Jesus returns will He bring in the kingdom and everlasting righteousness. Look around, it is not here yet! On the contrary, the world grows worse and worse colder and colder.
 

Timtofly

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We learn it is a seven years covenant that is broken mid way after 3 and a half years. We learn when it is broken the beast stands in the holy place and has his image set up. We learn that after the covenant is broken believers in Israel must flee immediately for their lives. We learn God protects them in the wilderness. We learn a lot of things. The beast confirms the covenant with many. That does not mean apparently that he is the only prince who agreed to it.


The time the prince of the covenant is broken is in the end by Jesus.
In the NIV it says this

Daniel 11:22
Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed.

So if this translation is accurate, that means 'a' prince or signatory of the covenant is defeated. So the author of the covenant is not the only one involved, there are princes who sign on.
We can see that he is deceitful, and is against the 'holy' covenant.
Daniel 11:30
Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.
We know it involves Israel, for many reasons.
Daniel 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.



See above. When it is broken the sacrifices cease, and he desecrates the temple. That is when the abomination is placed, that Jesus spoke about.

If the NIV translation I cited above is correct, then it is a leader who signed on to the deal that gets destroyed. No matter how we look at it, there is no problem. The bible says he confirms the covenant. Maybe he goes along with the deal although he hates it in his heart, and later sees to it that one of the big proponents of the deal get knocked out. (a prince of the covenant), One thing we know is that the beast does not get destroyed until Jesus takes care of that Personally.
That whole week (seven years) is the time when God deals with Israel in the end, bringing them to repent. The covenant involves Israel. Since it is called a holy covenant, it probably deals with the holy sites etc. The evil beast needs to agree to this big deal in order to gain total power. He hates it, but deceitfully signs on, and lies at the table, etc. Then, when the time is right, the treasonous lying snake breaks his word, and shows his true nature.
The price Jesus paid was not some seven year deal that gets broken! There is no possible fit at all there.

All prophesy including this one is NOT sealed yet and never has been yet. The world is full of sin, and no one made an end to it yet. Jesus made an end to our sins, not sin in the world - yet. Only when Jesus returns will He bring in the kingdom and everlasting righteousness. Look around, it is not here yet! On the contrary, the world grows worse and worse colder and colder.
Jesus will have the only covenant. Jesus will be the only Prince during the time of the Second Coming.
 

Timtofly

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The Tribulation is before the second coming and we are told that a leader will be here in that time, and do certain things.
Jacob's trouble does not belong to the church.

The church has had 1992 years of trouble.

You have to decide which trouble you place yourself in? That of the church, or that of Jacob.
 

Timtofly

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Neither does the wrath of God.
None of which included God's wrath or the Tribulation.
Great. Put Jacob into the final harvest. The Second Coming is prior to the Trumpets and the church leaves before the final harvest.
 
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dad

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Great. Put Jacob into the final harvest.
The time of Jacob's trouble does not mean that Jacob is still alive on earth. That simply refers to his descendants.
The Second Coming is prior to the Trumpets and the church leaves before the final harvest.
I never mentioned a harvest. The second coming is not before the trumpets. If you explain what you think the final harvest is, we might look at that.
 

ewq1938

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The second coming is at the last trump:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 

dad

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The second coming is at the last trump:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

I see nothing about 'coming' when it is us going (up into the air to be with Him) Neither do I see a need for that trumpet to be one of the trumpets or wrath. So there is nothing here 'clearly' talking about the second coming of Jesus at all.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
You seem to think the wrath trumpet is the one that calls us up into the air.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Yes, when Jesus returns all these things happen. As does the 1000 years we are told about. Nothing here says what you want it to say.
 

ewq1938

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You seem to think the wrath trumpet is the one that calls us up into the air.

The last of the 7 trumpets signals the second coming and the first thing to happen is the resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the rapture. After that, the wrath begins.
 

dad

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The last of the 7 trumpets signals the second coming and the first thing to happen is the resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the rapture. After that, the wrath begins.
Says who? You conflate the wrath trumpets with the voice of the archangel trumpet. When we go up Jesus has not yet come down. The dead who are raised at the end of the millennium are not the Bride. In the Rapture it is the bride.
 

ewq1938

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Says who? You conflate the wrath trumpets with the voice of the archangel trumpet.

The last trump is the 7th trump, the same time the resurrection happens. There is no 8th trumpet!