Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Those beasts are the ones found here:

Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Those three beasts remain alive after the 4th beast is killed. That doesn't match anything in Revelation. Revelation only has 2 beasts and both are destroyed in Revelation 19, no other beasts exist to live on.

The fourth beast is Rome. The first was Babylon. The second was Medo Persia. The third was Greece. Greece was divided into four by four generals (since Alexander had no heir)

Now I think it jumps to the AntiChrist, who heads the final manifestation of the Roman empire.

--
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

So this leader overthrows three kings. I don't think we know who these are. (although it sounds like they come from the areas the prophesy already explained- like the old Roman empire). We do know it is the AntiChrist that overthrows them though! The fingerprints of the guy are right here in the verse. 'Eyes of a man' 'mouth speaking great things'.

Another thing that does not happen in any part of John's vision.

Rev does not deal with who is overthrown by the AntiChrist. It just makes it clear he will be over all the earth. One reason we have prophesy found in many books is that some details covered in some places are not covered in other prophesies. That is why we have the whole bible.

 

[dad]

Believing what the Bible prophets tell us is better.

Pandemics and wars are covered by the bible. What is not covered is your claim it is a certain war that brings it all in.

I never speculated that Israel would be nuked. I strongly disagree with that idea. The Lord will destroy His enemies in the Middle East. Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

Then perhaps you can interpret what you said for us?

"So, in order to force the nations to agree to a OWG; initially 10 regions, governed by 10 Presidents*, they know there has to be some kind of dramatic event to start this process. That planned event is to be a nuke attack in the Middle East. A mini WW3, that will shake up the world and have the beneficial effect of solving the Palestinian/ Israel conflict - they would both be gone!"
?

 

[ewq1938]

The fourth beast is Rome. The first was Babylon. The second was Medo Persia. The third was Greece.

That's is impossible because Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece did not survive longer than Rome did. Remember that Daniel saw 4 beasts, saw the 4th beast die and the other beasts had their lives prolonged.

 

[dad]

That's is impossible because Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece did not survive longer than Rome did. Remember that Daniel saw 4 beasts, saw the 4th beast die and the other beasts had their lives prolonged.

Wrong. The Rome that the final leader presides over is not thousands of years ago. 'Out from among them' is where the AC comes from. You are lost in a time quandary. The beast is in the end time, not lost in the past somewhere.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong. The Rome that the final leader presides over is not thousands of years ago. 'Out from among them' is where the AC comes from. You are lost in a time quandary. The beast is in the end time, not lost in the past somewhere.

The beast won't be Rome. That one disappeared long ago.

 

[dad]

The beast won't be Rome. That one disappeared long ago.

Says you. However, the fourth beast is the last one. Your little proclamation is overruled.

 

[ewq1938]

Says you. However, the fourth beast is the last one. Your little proclamation is overruled.

Empty words. The scripture supports what I have said and disproves you.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

 

[Keraz]

Pandemics and wars are covered by the bible. What is not covered is your claim it is a certain war that brings it all in.


Then perhaps you can interpret what you said for us?

"So, in order to force the nations to agree to a OWG; initially 10 regions, governed by 10 Presidents*, they know there has to be some kind of dramatic event to start this process. That planned event is to be a nuke attack in the Middle East. A mini WW3, that will shake up the world and have the beneficial effect of solving the Palestinian/ Israel conflict - they would both be gone!"
?

I then went on to say; that is NOT what will happen.
The Lord Himself will send fire to destroy His enemies.

Pleas read posts carefully and don' jump to wrong conclusions.

 

[dad]

Empty words. The scripture supports what I have said and disproves you.

Only from you are there empty words.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Right we know who they were. Babylon,Medo Persia,Greece and Rome.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

So now we jump thousands of years. "AFTER this" So this AntiChrist who is clearly identified in this chapter, is DIFFERENT from all those other beast/kingdoms that cam before. No doubt when and what we are talking about here.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So WHEN is this? Could this be when Jesus returns? What happens then? All dominions become His dominion. So those nations that went along with the wicked world government have all power stripped from them. Are there not still nations in the millennium? Jesus and His saints rule the nations. Not sure what your problem is here? It does seem like you are intent on trying to make God and His word look like confused and contradictory nonsense. Sorry, ALL confusion and contradictions are in your head and heart.

 

[dad]

I then went on to say; that is NOT what will happen.
The Lord Himself will send fire to destroy His enemies.

Pleas read posts carefully and don' jump to wrong conclusions.

OK, so your interpretation of your words is that you later clarified what seemed like an obvious statement. Please be careful to be clear.

 

[Timtofly]

Not sure I mentioned or care about how much time Satan will have. The issue is that there are seven years given in prophesy and that is the last years or man's rule on earth. Both the false prophet and beast are alive, obviously in that seven years and well before it. We are not told when the mark of his comes in either, that could and probably is before the last 3 1/2 years. Same thing with some of the wars, and etc. The whole seven years of indignation (I hear that is the same word as wrath in Hebrew) is a horrible time of wrath. When does the first trumpets sound? I don't think we know. When does the mark come in, I don't think we know. When does the killing of believers start? I don't think we know where in the seven years these things and a lot more happen. When does Satan get cast to earth with his hordes? When does the bottomless pit open? etc etc. 42 months is just the worst part of that time.
Right, after the Tribulation Jesus (and us His saints) return to earth.

Shortened means cut short. No days or years are cut at all. Those days that may have included more time if the seven years was not needed to limit things are all that was cut short! NOT the seven years. (or the last half of those seven years)
The second coming of Jesus to this earth is certainly after the Great Tribulation. There is no other possibility whatsoever.
So tell me when that last world government is set up exactly? Did you think it was the day the AntiChrist defiles the holy place in Israel!?

The mark of the beast and all the evil aspects of the final world government are NOT of God, obviously. He is not setting up some child sacrificing, created gender disrespecting, vile dictatorship! He allows it to happen to end things here.

You have yet to show one definitive verse stating 7 years.

Satan's hordes are let out of the pit at the 5th Trumpet. They are cast out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. That is the 1st and 3rd woe. The first woe is the 5th Trumpet. The third woe is the 7th Trumpet.

When Satan is cast out during the 7th Trumpet, that is when the 42 months start, Revelation 13 right after Revelation 12. The FP does not appear until the 7th Trumpet. That is just simple reading comprehension.

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded"

"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. And the sixth angel sounded"

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets are the 3 woes.

The mark starts after the 42 months start in Revelation 13. Why would the mark have not been mentioned in the first 4 Trumpets? The mark comes after the image is set up. All that happens in the last 42 months.

7 years is never defined in Revelation. Only the 42 months found in Revelation 13 and that is the 3rd Woe. Satan in charge along with the FP and the image is the 3rd Woe. Satan is come to earth to exact his anger on all who are left at that point.

Can any one prove the 3rd Woe happens first? Happens even before the seals are opened? Was God meaning that all who read Revelation should argue and fight over the logical reading comprehension and figure out the order on their own recognizance? I keep hearing the excuse that Revelation is too figurative and not chronological thus only the enlightened human imagination can surpass the wisdom of God. God gave it in a chronological order, but many here seem to be blind to that fact.

 

[dad]

You have yet to show one definitive verse stating 7 years.

For a (anything) to be changed or broken mid way, there has to be a mid point. The tribulation is the mid point of the seven years. If you doubt that just double three and a half years and see what the total is.

Satan's hordes are let out of the pit at the 5th Trumpet. They are cast out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. That is the 1st and 3rd woe. The first woe is the 5th Trumpet. The third woe is the 7th Trumpet.

And...so? Does that tell us where and when it happens?

When Satan is cast out during the 7th Trumpet, that is when the 42 months start, Revelation 13 right after Revelation 12. The FP does not appear until the 7th Trumpet. That is just simple reading comprehension.

Actually I think we need a team of translators to interpret this, or at least what you think it might mean.
The last trumpet is long after Satan is on earth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You will not find Satan making war with anyone after Jesus returns!

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded"

"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. And the sixth angel sounded"

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets are the 3 woes.

So? Point?

The mark starts after the 42 months start in Revelation 13.

Prove it.

Why would the mark have not been mentioned in the first 4 Trumpets?

Maybe God wanted to mention other things.

The mark comes after the image is set up. All that happens in the last 42 months.

Says who that the mark starts then?

7 years is never defined in Revelation.

That does not mean it doesn't exist. Daniel already told us about that. We know the covenant is broken MID way. We know that is when the abomination is set up.

Only the 42 months found in Revelation 13 and that is the 3rd Woe. Satan in charge along with the FP and the image is the 3rd Woe. Satan is come to earth to exact his anger on all who are left at that point.

He can huff and puff all he likes, we are long gone and many of the believers of that day are protected. Not sure why you keep mentions first and third woes. That is a woeful time for the woke!

Can any one prove the 3rd Woe happens first?

Why would we be concerned with a third woe here?

Happens even before the seals are opened?

The question mark seems appropriate there. What in heaven are you talking about?

Was God meaning that all who read Revelation should argue and fight over the logical reading comprehension and figure out the order on their own recognizance?

If there was the logical reading you envision no such problem would exist!

I keep hearing the excuse that Revelation is too figurative and not chronological thus only the enlightened human imagination can surpass the wisdom of God.

Never heard that one. Did you hear the one about why Pinocchio's nose could never grow longer than 16 centimetres? Because then it would be a foot.

God gave it in a chronological order, but many here seem to be blind to that fact.

Some posters here have skewed the order severely.

 

[ewq1938]

For a (anything) to be changed or broken mid way, there has to be a mid point. The tribulation is the mid point of the seven years. If you doubt that just double three and a half years and see what the total is.

Still doesn't change the fact that the beast only has a total of 42 months, not 84. There is no 84 month period of time in Revelation.

 

[dad]

Still doesn't change the fact that the beast only has a total of 42 months, not 84. There is no 84 month period of time in Revelation.

No one needs to change that fact. But another fact is that the beast is not born the time he sets up the abomination of desolation. So there is plenty that goes on in the first half of the seven years also. Having total control for a certain time does not mean that he did not have a lot of control also before that.
The invasion of Israel in Eze 38, did you think that happened in the last 42 months?

 

[ewq1938]

No one needs to change that fact. But another fact is that the beast is not born the time he sets up the abomination of desolation. So there is plenty that goes on in the first half of the seven years also. Having total control for a certain time does not mean that he did not have a lot of control also before that.
The invasion of Israel in Eze 38, did you think that happened in the last 42 months?

No, do you?

 

[dad]

No, do you?

What was your main point? I seem to recall you were trying to support contradictions and differences in the bible. Looks like that has degraded into vague one liners.

 

[ewq1938]

What was your main point? I seem to recall you were trying to support contradictions and differences in the bible.

There are some important differences between Daniel and Revelation but there are some similarities. I like how the little horn is the leader of a ten horned beast empire in Daniel, and the false prophet has two little horns and is also the leader of a ten horned beast empire.

 

[dad]

There are some important differences between Daniel and Revelation but there are some similarities. I like how the little horn is the leader of a ten horned beast empire in Daniel, and the false prophet has two little horns and is also the leader of a ten horned beast empire.

Looks to me like the wolf in sheep clothing (the false prophet) appears as a sheep to more than just 'christians'. That could be why we see him with two horns. (perhaps muslim and christian appeal). But whatever the reason, he is in the same regime as the beast, and yes, that involves 10 kingdoms. So that is not a difference with other prophesies, it compliments them and gives us more.

 

[ewq1938]

Looks to me like the wolf in sheep clothing (the false prophet) appears as a sheep to more than just 'christians'. That could be why we see him with two horns. (perhaps muslim and christian appeal). But whatever the reason, he is in the same regime as the beast, and yes, that involves 10 kingdoms. So that is not a difference with other prophesies, it compliments them and gives us more.

The differences would be that the little horn is an 11th horn on a previously 10 horned beast, but is not a beast by himself. In Revelation, the False Prophet is a second beast and has two of his own little horns.

 

[dad]

The differences would be that the little horn is an 11th horn on a previously 10 horned beast, but is not a beast by himself. In Revelation, the False Prophet is a second beast and has two of his own little horns.

Well, if the false prophet arises after the ten, what else would that make him but the eleventh? Since his job is to get people to follow the beast of course he is not a kingdom unto himself.(but he will be powerful as any of those ten kings to say the least) In revelation, since he comes after the beast, of course he is a second beast. The fact that the false prophet is basically religious in that he seeks to get all people to worship only the AntiChrist probably means his horns are power derived from religion of some sort. Perhaps he is big in both 'christian' and Muslim influence or something. In any event, there is certainly no contradiction whatsoever.