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Featured Tongues and Related Issues

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by amadeus, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Arise John, gird yourself up and walk!
     
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  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I hear you very well on this subject. There are false tongues, not of God at all. In church settings where some tongues really are of God, people misuse or abuse their gifts even as some ministers really called by God misuse their calling.

    Especially for people without the gift, who are not regularly around people with the gift, backing away may be a good thing. I won't be more definite than that because I don't make rules about it and neither should anyone else... but good anointed advice by ministers of God should be given.

    The Holy Spirit should be leading all of us all of the time... but we know that not how it always happens. Every person must communicate with God personally... and go from there led by the Holy Spirit.

    Ideally everyone who is a part of the Body of Christ should come to recognize other parts and love them as brothers... even if their workings are not understood.


    On the gift itself, as I had hoped to make clear in the OP, I believe there is either more than one gift of tongues or as the scripture says a diversity of tongues. Too many people who do have a gift of tongues allow it to flow when it should not be flowing because the time or purpose is wrong according to the gift and as the Spirit directs. A person with a message to be given needs to let it flow, but the person to give the interpretation also needs to be there. If there is not interpreter the message should not be given...

    "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28

    This should be the truth no matter what a person says that the Church is, or is not.

    Give God the glory!
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  3. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I’m ok that you do believe.
     
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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Stay strong in the Lord and never deny the truth that you have. The difficulty people have on this subject and others too often is fostered by short sighted ministers leading without knowledge or vision. And then too many people simply jump on that band wagon instead of going to God themselves. The errors lie with many people on all sides of the question, including most certainly, people who do have gifts from God but with too little knowledge or erroneous knowledge about what the gift is or should be.
     
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  5. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I believe!!
    ARISE WALK!!!
     
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  6. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Only thing that gets me is when it is assumed one is not filled with the Holy Spirit ...unless...certainly haven’t heard you say that. 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 and the chapter prior seem to say all gifts are void and unprofitable without Love... “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.”

    Colossians 3:14
    [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

    Which maybe explains 1 Corinthians 14:4-5 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. [5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

    Not saying it doesn’t. But also would Definitely not assume those who do not experience the gift have missed or shunned God in some way ...or lack faith. Not that you said they do. It is a touchy subject for you, yeah? I would ask why it is so important or does it cause hard feelings? Proverbs 21:2
    [2] Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

    We could all be wrong...blessing Amadeus. Dislike these topics of obvious division.
     
  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    And the Church is His Body, is it not? He is after all only the Head.

    And while you see Jesus quoting the OT in the gospels, you never see him quoting the NT. What is it that you call the Word of God? Is that not Jesus? As the Word does He only run from Matt 1:1 to Rev 22:21?
     
  8. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    The church and Israel are distinct. 1 Corinthians 10.32
     
  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Using anyone's interpretation of it? Would you receive as truth the interpretation of scripture provided by an avowed atheist? If not, why not, if the scripture by itself is all of the Truth of God we need? Where went Sola Scriptura?
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Amen! To presume that our emotions should never be involved when we are supposed to love God because He first loved us would, I believe, present a real problem.
     
  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Not only the Book of Revelation, but the entirety of the scriptures. Nearly every one of those people involved in those debates without regard to which side they are on, will use other scriptures outside of Revelation to support their case. The parable or the unknown tongue are ways that God presents His case. Who is right in each debate? God for sure!

    As to His case always being unknown or being in an uninterpreted parable, that is unlikely. Someone has been given every correct answer, but when one person continues to insist that he is always absolutely right and everyone else is absolutely wrong it is unlikely that he will ever find the answers held by one or more of those other persons. Without an interpreter led by the Holy Spirit, each of us needs to remain silent... but our flesh won't let go:

    "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

    Until we seriously admit the possibility of our own error, we cannot grow. God does not force feed anyone.
     
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  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    God edifying others, or people edifying others?

    God only speaks truth, but one has to hear Him to be edified.

    When a person does speaks God's truth, likewise, one has to hear him to be edified.

    Some people will presume anything coming from someone on the "other" side must be in error or a lie, but being honest we know that is not so. Was Balaam not edified by his donkey? What is the difference if we are edified by an atheist, or a Mormon, or a JW, or a Pentecostal, or a Democrat or a Muslim, etc.?
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    And what does that have to do with my post?
    "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:" I Cor 10:32

    You cited the verse but failed connect it to my post. You would say the scriptures are the complete Word of God but where in your words do we find the complete understanding of your meaning? Not in the scriptures unless you explain [interpret] them for us and explain why I am in error and you are correct. How did Philip explain Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch from the Book of Isaiah? Not by his own intellect alone for certain.

    Jesus is the Word of God according to one interpretation of this verse:

    "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

    When John wrote that almost certainly the only commonly known and recognized scripture was what we call the OT. But apparently you would include also the NT as being Jesus, would you not?

    As to your cited verse, who are the Jews? [offspring of Judah, the 4th son of Jacob? or all natural (carnal) children of Jacob? or are they equal always to the Israelites? etc.?] Who are the gentiles? [everyone born of woman that is not a Jew, or everyone who is a heathen according to whom?, etc.?] Who is the church of God? [everyone that sits on a church pew of a "Christian" assembly?, or perhaps those mentioned in Rom 9:6?, or etc.?]

    It would seem that there may more than one answer? How do you know the correct answer to each question? By discernment? By prophecy? By tongue interpretation? By asking your most trusted minister? Etc.?

    But you say that everything is settled. No additional help from God through gifted ministers or saints or laypersons is needed! There is no further need for the gifts of God working in people. Hmmm?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  14. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Is there really any difference?
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough and it does not matter. The fact remains that this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
    Of course you have not. But isn't that the logical conclusion if anyone believes that the fulness of the Spirit can only be (or is primarily) manifested through tongues? And that is indeed the Pentecostal doctrine.
    This is an entirely different subject. Millions of hearts have been changed without the manifestation of tongues.
    What I posted was not to be argumentative but to simply present the view of Christians who do not speak in tongues (the majority). There would be no point in debating this matter, since both groups are convinced that they have the right understanding.
    No. That's not what I meant. The KJV translators were outstanding. But at that time the word "tongue" was used for language frequently. Today languages are called languages, and as you will note in other translations, that is exactly how the Greek words glossa and glossais and glosson are translated.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    ...to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of languages [γλωσσῶν(glōssōn)], to another, interpretation of languages [γλωσσῶν(glōssōn)]. (1 Cor 12:10)
    ἄλλῳ δὲ ἐνεργήματα δυνάμεων, ἄλλῳ δὲ προφητεία, ἄλλῳ δὲ διακρίσεις πνευμάτων, ἑτέρῳ δὲ γένη γλωσσῶν, ἄλλῳ δὲ ἑρμηνεία γλωσσῶν·
     
  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I have not said that and you won't hear me say it. Too many people presume that others believe certain things, or don't, because of a presumed affiliation. You from your own experience should know that is NOT how people are. Some or even many will follow the leader or flesh, but not everyone.

    I do NOT equate speaking with tongues with being filled with the Holy Spirit. I do not however believe a person could have a gift of tongues from God without being filled with the Holy Spirit. That is not the same thing, however, that you were saying.

    I don't disagree with any of that. I have read and studied and prayed often about that very chapter. To me it explains an awful lot about the things of God in only a few words. How many people understand God's meaning in them? One thing you will see me mentioning often is the very short verse penned by Apostle Paul:

    "Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

    When people quench the Spirit, Holy Spirit that is, in themselves they find themselves in the focal point of the negative conclusions cited in I Cor 13.

    I don't disagree with that. On the contrary it agrees precisely with I Cor 13. Gifts will not matter one iota to God if a person has not charity/love as described in I Cor 13. It always comes back ultimately to what we have been doing with what we have received from God. God is always a fair, righteous judge.

    Everything each of us receives from God is important in our walk with God. It does not make us better in the eyes of God. The eyes of people is another thing. Because a person is serving God in any measure does not mean he never makes any mistakes, does it?

    That people criticize one another for differences is the beastly nature of people, which at times may lift up its ugly head in what we thought were the best of people. We should all always be pleased when someone else receives a special blessing or gift from God. But, again, that is not the nature of the natural man. People who have been blessed by God are not exempted from wrong feelings, such as jealousy, envy and hate. When they speak those feelings or post them openly on a forum such as this, they expose themselves before God and before others with "eyes to see".

    "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.: James 3:10

    ...ought not, but as we know they still very are!

    Sometimes looking closely at the divisions is needed. Churches [assemblies] where tongue talking is discouraged or talked against is not where we are likely to hear the other side. Neither are assemblies where tongue talking is considered a prerequisite to salvation! Some people will hear both sides nowhere else but here. Should we never talk about anything that divides people?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  17. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    There should not be, but in fact there often is. When we are all overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer then there will be no difference because everyone will be like Him.
     
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  18. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Agreed!
    Give strength and walk
     
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  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Agree. I’m glad you mentioned both sides. I’ve been thinking is any gift worth separating from the body over? For a hand or a foot or a toe ...to separate solely because it is not appreciated. I am in no way good at administration and definitely don’t have that gift ..but it is a gift; one I’m sure goes under-appreciated at times. Lots of gifts go under-appreciated and are rarely spoken of, but needed. regardless of whether a gift is truly appreciated...a gift (IMO)should never preceded staying intact with the body.
     
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  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Enoch111

    Fairly recent according to your research and history as written by men. I don't doubt you were unable to find much or even nothing written for earlier periods of time, but that does not prove it was never there. I'm not saying it was, but a lack of information is hardly real evidence that it did not exist.


    There have been many people who over the centuries who rebelled against the establishment about whom only minimal evidence exists because they lost their battles. Seems reasonable that there were some about whom not even minimal evidence remained. The powers that be, secular or religious, have been known to destroy things they did not want anyone to know about.

    Logical perhaps to some, but does God depend upon the logic of men to accomplish all of His will? I am not arguing for Pentecostal doctrine. I know quite a bit about that. I was in Pentecostal churches for 11 years. As soon as I knew enough to do so, I was disagreeing with a lot of the official doctrine, but I would not throw out everything because I disagreed with some.

    What I am posting here is my own beliefs or my own doubts or what I believe is the truth. I also have a personal history in which I know there was error. When I embraced any of it, like anyone else, I did not believe I was in error.


    And many were changed with the manifestation of same. God works in many ways to accomplish His purposes. Should we throw out any that are not in favor with us or even with a majority of those calling themselves Christian?

    I understand where that majority stands on this. Being in the majority also does not necessarily mean being right, does it? I would hope only to bring people together in spite of such differences. Jesus dealt with the Samaritans and gentiles and designated sinners in spite of the bad press it gave him with the Jewish leadership. If we never address the subject in mixed company how likely is anyone to soften any of their harsh views against the other side?


    Some people will be confused no matter how well the words are translated and some people are not going to read it for themselves no matter how easy it is to read. When a person is really led by God at all times, he will never be confused.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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