Tongues ( 'sign' gifts ) did/did not cease?

[David in NJ]

The gifts of the holy spirit were special abilities that anointed Christians received according to the individual person. However, these abilities were not given out of nowhere, but rather the spiritual gifts were transmitted by the laying on of hands from those who had originally received the holy spirit from heaven. When the last of the 120 disciples who were at Pentecost (Acts 2) died, the gifts stopped being transmitted. The new generations of Christians could no longer transmit the holy spirit to others through the laying on of hands, since they had not received that authority from Jesus.

I, personally, have never had any information about any apostolic or Christian fathers after them who did any powerful work like the miraculous gifts that anointed Christians did before them.

When the fashion for Pentecostal revivalism began at the beginning of the 20th century, and missionaries began to travel to remote countries to "evangelize", they believed that they were going to speak in the languages of the inhabitants of those countries "by the work and grace of the holy spirit" ... but they had to waking up to the reality that they couldn't speak any foreign language without first having to learn it like any other foreign language student.

The languages spoken by the holy spirit that are mentioned as a gift were not languages that did not exist among humans, but languages that had translations and that had to be given in order to understand the messages transmitted by the spirit in those languages. These powers had the function of identifying the Christian community as the true people of God at that time.

Today there are other ways to identify true Christians.

You said: "When the last of the 120 disciples who were at Pentecost (Acts 2) died, the gifts stopped being transmitted."

This is a fairy tale often told in churches.

God gave the Promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to His Bride/Elect/Church and this Promise remains for all who Believe the Word in Faith.

Read = Gospel of John, Acts, 1 Corinthians

BELIEVE the WORD = "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God"

 

[Bob Estey]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified:

When Did ( the 'sign' gifts ) tongues cease?

Originally, the purpose of tongues was for people to spread the gospel to people who spoke different languages, if I am not mistaken. For example, I don't speak Spanish, but the gift of tongues would allow me to spread the gospel in Spanish to people who spoke Spanish.

Now the "gift of tongues" seems to mean you speak out in language nobody understands during a worship service. I have my doubts if that is really speaking in tongues.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Respectful and "Much love' discussion - continued...

But so far as the Sign Gifts, what I would call "Signs and Wonders" as done by Jesus, and the Apostles, the multitudes healed, and delivered, all of that, I think that was to authenticate Jesus, and the Gospel message through the Apostles. I don't believe that is for the current time.

...Appreciate the Valuable Input, so let's check these appropriate Scriptures:

"And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every​

creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth​

not shall be damned.​

​

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My Name shall they cast out​

devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if​

they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the​

sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:15-18)​

​

Seems to me the "sign gift of tongues" is included as "not for today"?

Is it Scriptural to say all of the twelve ( prophetic ) apostles and the ( Mystery ) apostle Paul
had these sign gifts to "confirm The Word Of God"?

"So then after The LORD had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven,​

and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where,​

The LORD working with them, and confirming The Word with signs following.​

Amen." (Mark 16:19-20 cp Acts 4:30, 5:12, 8:6; Hebrews 2:4)​

+
Paul and Barnabas:

"And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the​

synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the​

Jews and also of the Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred​

up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.​

​

Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in The LORD, Which gave​

testimony unto The Word of His Grace, and granted signs and wonders to ​

be done by their hands." (Acts 14:1-3 cp 15:19, 19:11-12 1Co 2:4-5)​

Compare:

a) "casting out devils" (Acts 16:16-18, 19:11-12)​

b) "taking up serpents" (Acts 28:3-6)​

c) "healing"​

(Acts 3:6-8, 5:15-16 [ every one ], 9:17-18, 34, 40-42 14:8-10, 28:8-9;​

James 5:14-15; 1 Corinthians 12:9)​

​

Was not everyone 'healed' in the above verses?​

Now, Contrasted - what is happening here?:

d) no more sign "gift of healing"?

2Ti_4:20 "Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."​

​

"Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and​

companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that​

ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness,​

because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh​

unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also,​

lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow." (Philippians 2:25-27)​

​

To Timothy:​

1Ti_5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake​

and thine often infirmities."​

Did God then only withdraw the "sign gift of healing" and leave the rest, or
"all of them" are discontinued, after His Transition period from law Over To Grace?

"gifts of prophecy and knowledge"? - to be continued?...

​

 

[marks]

- to be continued?...

​

There is a difference between the "sign gifts" and "ministry gifts".

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 KJV
1) Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Was not everyone 'healed' in the above verses?
Now, Contrasted - what is happening here?:

d) no more sign "gift of healing"?

2Ti_4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, andcompanion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he thatministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness,because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nighunto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also,lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow." (Philippians 2:25-27)To Timothy:1Ti_5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sakeand thine often infirmities.

No longer did Jesus or the Apostles heal all who came, according to the sign gifts. However, the Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He will, including gifts of healings. Not a blanket, You can heal everyone, but individual healings as the Spirit wills.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming . . .

I don't see where the LORD revealed Paul that the "sign gifts would cease before His second coming", what passage do you have in mind? That's not mentioned in the place in 1 Corinthians 13.

I don't see this confusion, only if someone interprets that passage in such a way as to cause confusion, but then, that would be because of an unsupported interpretation.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

This is a topic (Tongues).... that chases its own tail.

The confusion is deep and its not going to ever change.

To begin with, the "that which is perfect", is unknown.....so, to try to defend gifts or delete gifts based on that verse is "moot".


I can tell you a few things reader, and you can use them or not. Read on.

There are 'signs for the Jews". and "tongues are for a sign".
There are "signs of an Apostle". and they were Jewish.
Are you one of those?

Then there is this..

1.) "prayer language", vs 2.) "the #9 gift of the Spirit that is "the Gift of Tongues".
See those 2?
They are NOT the same.
The "self edifying" "utterance" that the Pentecostals and Charismatics use, is not the "gift of Tongues" .

What is the "gift of Tongues"?

Its this. Acts 2 = "we heard (Peter) speak in our OWN LANGUAGE".

See that?
That is the "gift of a foreign language" that you didn't learn, but you can speak supernaturally , because its necessary for them to hear the GOSPEL.

And then someone says.. ""well what about that infilling of the Spirit" and "these signs shall follow them that believe".. "they shall speak with new tongues"...

Yeah, i read that also.

Now....
notice the verse says "new tongues" and it does not say ""the gift of Tongues".

So, i'll leave it there, because some of the readers here have been taught to try to ""speak"" in this idea of a spiritual gift ...or... you have been taught that its not "for today".
So, whatever you believe about it, someone told you to think that, and im not going to tell you what to think.
I only showed you some explanation that you've not been shown before., unless you've read my Teaching on other forums.
See, all that happens when people try to post their opinion about this rabbit trail...., is that people will FIGHT because their PRIDE will swell, regarding this "tongues" confusion.

So, i showed you some things you didnt know, unless you've read me teach on this subject on other forums or some of my students have become your pastor or your SS teacher.


Reader, let me leave you with a thought you need to think about.

When you meet Jesus, He is going to look at your life, not at your "gifts of the spirit".
He's not interested in that.... He is interested in your heart motive that reveals why you did your deeds for God, and He's going to take note of the fact that you led some people to Christ or you never led even one to the saving knowledge of Jesus.

See that?
Get your mind on that, and off of "spiritual gifts"..... as if God needs you to have a few, its because He has you in a situation where using them is going to lead someone to Christ, and in that case you wont have to chase them. He'll provide them to/for you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Respectful and 'Much love' discussion continued:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?

I don't see where the LORD revealed Paul that the "sign gifts would cease before His second coming", what passage do you have in mind? That's not mentioned in the place in 1 Corinthians 13.

Trio of gifts?:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when
That Which Is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10)​

Possibilities?

1) 'He' ( Masculine ) Which Is Perfect = The LORD Jesus Christ?

or:

1) 'That' ( 'telios' Neuter? ) Which Is Perfect =

a) The Revelation Of The Mystery:​

​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to The Dispensation of God​

Which Is Given to me for you, To Fulfil [ Complete? ] The Word of God;​

Even The Mystery Which hath been hid from ages and from generations,​

but now is made manifest to His saints:" (Colossians 1:25-26 KJV)​

or?:

​

b) The Completed Canon of All Scripture?​

Amen.

 

[marks]

Trio of gifts?:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when
That Which Is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

Possibilities?

As the answer is not clearly stated, we all have our opinions, but nothing more, I think.

Tongues will cease, yes, but it's knowledge and prophecy that are partial, and will be done away with.

I'm not seeing anywhere in here that mentions these will cease before Jesus' coming in power and glory.

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when
That Which Is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

Ephesians 4:12-13 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the Bible tells us what "that which is perfect" that is to come, what that is, this is it.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

As the answer is not clearly stated, we all have our opinions, but nothing more, I think.

Thanks for your Valuable input - hope it turns out well for our opinions/decisions on Judgment Day:

I found a document on "Are Miraculous gifts for today?" and the 4 'scholars' each gave their
50-page 'view,' and, in the end, None of them 'changed their mind'.

So, I respect what you have decided, and hope the same for my decision to continue to be a
cessationist.

Thanks again for the Great and kind 'Much love' discussion:

1Co 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but​

the greatest of these is charity."​

Amen.

 

[marks]

Thanks for your Valuable input - hope it turns out well for our opinions/decisions on Judgment Day:

I found a document on "Are Miraculous gifts for today?" and the 4 'scholars' each gave their
50-page 'view,' and, in the end, None of them 'changed their mind'.

So, I respect what you have decided, and hope the same for my decision to continue to be a
cessationist.

Thanks again for the Great and kind 'Much love' discussion:

1Co 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but​

the greatest of these is charity."​

Amen.

I always appreciate our discussions!

We each live and walk by faith in Jesus, and He will never fail us!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8 is not talking about the fake gibberish unknown tongue you seem to be referring to. Paul is pointing to known languages being gone in the future. Paul is pointing to the world to come when God promised to return ALL NATIONS to a "pure language", so that ALL may call upon Him to serve Him with one consent (where's that written? It's in the Old Testament prophets, go find it.)

So read what Paul said again...

1 Cor 13:8
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

The Greek for the word "tongues" above means 'languages' (see Greek glossa).

Why... will those things "vanish away" in the future? It's because like God said for the world to come, the things of this present world will pass away and no longer be remembered, except that His Word will never pass away. Even all the hills, mountains, and islands are going to be moved at His future coming.

So instead of reading into... that Scripture what you have been taught by men's doctrines about the idea of speaking in an "unknown" tongue (which the word "unknown" in 1 Cor.14 (KJV) was added by translators), you should instead read it in simplicity to first understand what Paul was actually talking about there with known languages of the world which the nations speak.

 

[DJT_47]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

Here's an excerpt from something I've posted previously here and elsewhere that should shed light on this topic, that addresses spiritual gifts. And yes. there's an obvious lack of understanding and misinterpretation of what is meant by "that which is perfect" which this covers as well.

REPOST

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to THEM in their time, addressing THEIR near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[David in NJ]

Here's an excerpt from something I've posted previously here and elsewhere that should shed light on this topic, that addresses spiritual gifts. And yes. there's an obvious lack of understanding and misinterpretation of what is meant by "that which is perfect" which this covers as well.

REPOST

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to THEM in their time, addressing THEIR near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

@DJT_47 said: "Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to THEM in their time, addressing THEIR near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above "repost" statement is causing division, directly opposes the Apostle Paul's words and is against the will of God for the Bride of Christ, His Elect.

 

[rwb]

And then someone says.. ""well what about that infilling of the Spirit" and "these signs shall follow them that believe".. "they shall speak with new tongues"...

Yeah, i read that also.

Now....
notice the verse says "new tongues" and it does not say ""the gift of Tongues".

Yeah, I like to call this "new tongues" Christianeze! IOW we who believe are able to speak and now proclaim that which is new THE GOSPEL through the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

 

[amadeus]

As the answer is not clearly stated, we all have our opinions, but nothing more, I think.

Tongues will cease, yes, but it's knowledge and prophecy that are partial, and will be done away with.

I'm not seeing anywhere in here that mentions these will cease before Jesus' coming in power and glory.



Ephesians 4:12-13 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the Bible tells us what "that which is perfect" that is to come, what that is, this is it.

Much love!

Yes, my friend. Who is now a perfect man among us? God knows each one!

 

[rwb]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

It seems to me that when we read this letter from Paul, we should be moved by the great effort he takes to prove the superiority of the gift of LOVE above all else. Because he says that when we have love it will not fail us. Of course, the greatest love of all is to love the Lord with all our being, and this ability comes from God.

Paul compares possessing love with possessing other gifts. He says some will have a prophetic word they think comes from God, but the prophesy may fail if it is not from God. There will be a time when tongues (which is a language we have not learned to speak) fail because there are none who speak a certain language needed, in that instance tongues (languages) cease for lack of one who can understand the particular language spoken. The knowledge we have today, could be gone from us tomorrow simply through aging or growing old. But love that comes from God shall never prove false, nor fail, cease, or fade away. For that reason, LOVE is the greatest of these.

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul goes on to say that for now before we come to full maturity of doctrine we know only in part, and our prophesy is in part being dependent upon what we know. When Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come" he is saying when we become mature in faith and doctrine, when we've grown to maturity and gained wisdom of God "then that which is in part shall be done away." IOW as we gain knowledge of God and wisdom through His Spirit in us, we have better understanding regarding these gifts. Finally Paul tells of his own experience in coming to a mature faith and doctrinal knowledge. In the beginning his understanding was like that of a child, but when he grew up in knowledge and wisdom he became a man, no longer tossed around by the things he knew only in part. Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God. He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God.

1 Corinthians 13:9-13 (KJV) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[marks]

Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God. He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God.

Amen!!

In speaking of our desires for spiritual gifts, he says, I show you a more excellent way! Love! If we are committed to each other's wellbeing, and if we are trusting that God will empower us for every good work, then we should love each other by serving each other's need, whatever it may be, as God directs us.

And if He wants to use my own abilities, praise Him! And if He want's to gift me supernaturally, praise Him! And if He wants to work miracles, praise Him!

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

It seems to me that when we read this letter from Paul, we should be moved by the great effort he takes to prove the superiority of the gift of LOVE above all else. Because he says that when we have love it will not fail us. Of course, the greatest love of all is to love the Lord with all our being, and this ability comes from God.

Paul compares possessing love with possessing other gifts. He says some will have a prophetic word they think comes from God, but the prophesy may fail if it is not from God. There will be a time when tongues (which is a language we have not learned to speak) fail because there are none who speak a certain language needed, in that instance tongues (languages) cease for lack of one who can understand the particular language spoken. The knowledge we have today, could be gone from us tomorrow simply through aging or growing old. But love that comes from God shall never prove false, nor fail, cease, or fade away. For that reason, LOVE is the greatest of these.

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul goes on to say that for now before we come to full maturity of doctrine we know only in part, and our prophesy is in part being dependent upon what we know. When Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come" he is saying when we become mature in faith and doctrine, when we've grown to maturity and gained wisdom of God "then that which is in part shall be done away." IOW as we gain knowledge of God and wisdom through His Spirit in us, we have better understanding regarding these gifts. Finally Paul tells of his own experience in coming to a mature faith and doctrinal knowledge. In the beginning his understanding was like that of a child, but when he grew up in knowledge and wisdom he became a man, no longer tossed around by the things he knew only in part. Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God. He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God.

1 Corinthians 13:9-13 (KJV) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

i love and agree your statement on "Love" as per 1 Corinthians

However, you made staements that are contrary to the word of God and i would ask that you please read again the Gospel of John,
Acts and 1 Corinthians as a continuous DECLARATION from God as to what exactly we are to have Faith in.

Peace to you rwb

 

[David in NJ]

Amen!!

In speaking of our desires for spiritual gifts, he says, I show you a more excellent way! Love! If we are committed to each other's wellbeing, and if we are trusting that God will empower us for every good work, then we should love each other by serving each other's need, whatever it may be, as God directs us.

And if He wants to use my own abilities, praise Him! And if He want's to gift me supernaturally, praise Him! And if He wants to work miracles, praise Him!

Much love!

my Brother marks,

Loved your post and yet there is something very important lacking in it.

'Love' was not lacking so it must be something else.........what could it be in relation to 1 Cor ch13 ???