Tongues ( 'sign' gifts ) did/did not cease?

[rwb]

i love and agree your statement on "Love" as per 1 Corinthians

However, you made staements that are contrary to the word of God and i would ask that you please read again the Gospel of John,
Acts and 1 Corinthians as a continuous DECLARATION from God as to what exactly we are to have Faith in.

Peace to you rwb

Please be a little bit more specific. What declaration have I made that is contrary to the Word of God?

 

[David in NJ]

Please be a little bit more specific. What declaration have I made that is contrary to the Word of God?

a.) is TRUE - "There will be a time when tongues (which is a language we have not learned to speak) fail"

b.) is FALSE - "because there are none who speak a certain language needed, in that instance tongues (languages) cease for lack of one who can understand the particular language spoken."

c.) is FALSE - "Paul goes on to say that for now before we come to full maturity of doctrine we know only in part, and our prophesy is in part being dependent upon what we know. When Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come" he is saying when we become mature in faith and doctrine, when we've grown to maturity and gained wisdom of God "then that which is in part shall be done away."

d.) is FALSE - "Finally Paul tells of his own experience in coming to a mature faith and doctrinal knowledge. In the beginning his understanding was like that of a child, but when he grew up in knowledge and wisdom he became a man, no longer tossed around by the things he knew only in part. Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God."

e.) is TRUE - "He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God."

Peace

 

[amigo de christo]

a.) is TRUE - "There will be a time when tongues (which is a language we have not learned to speak) fail"

b.) is FALSE - "because there are none who speak a certain language needed, in that instance tongues (languages) cease for lack of one who can understand the particular language spoken."

c.) is FALSE - "Paul goes on to say that for now before we come to full maturity of doctrine we know only in part, and our prophesy is in part being dependent upon what we know. When Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come" he is saying when we become mature in faith and doctrine, when we've grown to maturity and gained wisdom of God "then that which is in part shall be done away."

d.) is FALSE - "Finally Paul tells of his own experience in coming to a mature faith and doctrinal knowledge. In the beginning his understanding was like that of a child, but when he grew up in knowledge and wisdom he became a man, no longer tossed around by the things he knew only in part. Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God."

e.) is TRUE - "He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God."

Peace

And now a word . Since LOVE is the most important
We better know the true charity , true love that cometh of GOD .
As you well know the devil can say the word love , but he is gonna preach another kind of love that the world by the flesh
will embrace . This might sound a bit scary what i say next .
But i could never begin to even count the number of profressed christains , let alone the world and the false religoins ,
who now FOLLOW the dragons version of love .
CHARITY REJOICES IN TRUTH . That means WOULD NOT CHARITY THEN REJOICE IN EVERY WORD OF GOD WHICH IS TRUTH .
and charity WOULD NOT rejoice in inquity , anything CONTRARY TO GOD .
BIBLE TIME FOLKS . This ol man aint half as crazy nor a hater like many thinks me to be .
David , ITS TIME . THE TIME is not yesterday , and tomorrow is not gaurnateed .
ITS TIME RIGHT NOW . And what time is this that i speak of .............ITS TIME TO SEEK OUT THE LORD
get DUG in those bibles again . The message seems to not have changed .
For years and years my message has been the same . WE BESS get in those bibles again and embrace
ALL THINGS WRITTEN for our own learning and our own good . Now hit those trenches david .
And before anyone considers me to be a zealout looking for recruits to follow me .
REMEMBER THIS . I HOLLER NOT STOP GET IN THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES . I dont say
to not test me . I SAY GET IN THOSE BIBLES

 

[David in NJ]

And now a word . Since LOVE is the most important
We better know the true charity , true love that cometh of GOD .
As you well know the devil can say the word love , but he is gonna preach another kind of love that the world by the flesh
will embrace . This might sound a bit scary what i say next .
But i could never begin to even count the number of profressed christains , let alone the world and the false religoins ,
who now FOLLOW the dragons version of love .
CHARITY REJOICES IN TRUTH . That means WOULD NOT CHARITY THEN REJOICE IN EVERY WORD OF GOD WHICH IS TRUTH .
and charity WOULD NOT rejoice in inquity , anything CONTRARY TO GOD .
BIBLE TIME FOLKS . This ol man aint half as crazy nor a hater like many thinks me to be .
David , ITS TIME . THE TIME is not yesterday , and tomorrow is not gaurnateed .
ITS TIME RIGHT NOW . And what time is this that i speak of .............ITS TIME TO SEEK OUT THE LORD
get DUG in those bibles again . The message seems to not have changed .
For years and years my message has been the same . WE BESS get in those bibles again and embrace
ALL THINGS WRITTEN for our own learning and our own good . Now hit those trenches david .
And before anyone considers me to be a zealout looking for recruits to follow me .
REMEMBER THIS . I HOLLER NOT STOP GET IN THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES . I dont say
to not test me . I SAY GET IN THOSE BIBLES

#1 TRUTH = "LOVE REJOICES in TRUTH" = "THY WORD is TRUTH" = JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

 

[rwb]

a.) is TRUE - "There will be a time when tongues (which is a language we have not learned to speak) fail"

b.) is FALSE - "because there are none who speak a certain language needed, in that instance tongues (languages) cease for lack of one who can understand the particular language spoken."

c.) is FALSE - "Paul goes on to say that for now before we come to full maturity of doctrine we know only in part, and our prophesy is in part being dependent upon what we know. When Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come" he is saying when we become mature in faith and doctrine, when we've grown to maturity and gained wisdom of God "then that which is in part shall be done away."

d.) is FALSE - "Finally Paul tells of his own experience in coming to a mature faith and doctrinal knowledge. In the beginning his understanding was like that of a child, but when he grew up in knowledge and wisdom he became a man, no longer tossed around by the things he knew only in part. Now he (Paul) has matured in knowledge and wisdom and is able to discern the things of God."

e.) is TRUE - "He ends by once again saying the most important of all the gifts is LOVE that comes from God."

Peace

Repeating what I've said doesn't show me how what I've said is contrary to the Word of God. You've only stated your opinion of what you believe to be contrary without explaining how.

Peace to you as well.

 

[David in NJ]

Repeating what I've said doesn't show me how what I've said is contrary to the Word of God. You've only stated your opinion of what you believe to be contrary without explaining how.

Peace to you as well.

FYI - When i said 'FALSE' it does not mean ALL that you said was false but that your conclusion to the Scripture was false.

Meaning is this = we cannot add our words to God's words = see Proverbs 30:5-6

So PLEASE do not look at my response to your post as an 'attack' against you my Brother in Christ

 

[rwb]

FYI - When i said 'FALSE' it does not mean ALL that you said was false but that your conclusion to the Scripture was false.

Meaning is this = we cannot add our words to God's words = see Proverbs 30:5-6

So PLEASE do not look at my response to your post as an 'attack' against you my Brother in Christ

I was only wanting clarity David. If the conclusions I've drawn do not align with the Word of God, I certainly want to know how they do not align with the Word of God. I explained in my own words truths I have gleaned from the Bible. I didn't feel you were attacking me.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here's an excerpt from something I've posted previously here and elsewhere that should shed light on this topic, that addresses spiritual gifts. And yes. there's an obvious lack of understanding and misinterpretation of what is meant by "that which is perfect" which this covers as well.

REPOST

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to THEM in their time, addressing THEIR near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[St. SteVen]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Yes, thanks for launching a thread on such an important, and misunderstood topic.

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

I think we are off on the wrong foot by labeling the manifestations of the Holy Spirit as "sign gifts".
That is a Cessationist term used to blaspheme the work of the Holy Spirit. (unforgivable)

Furthermore, it was not "revealed" to the Apostle that "the sign gifts"
would "cease before His Second Coming." (that which is perfect)

Typically those who use the term "sign gifts" claim they were given to the Apostles
only as a sign and ended when the last Apostle died.

But what do 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14, and Acts chapter 2 tells us about the gifts?

The gifts are like body parts that make up a whole.
Do we want to make an amputee of the body of Christ by removing parts?

The Apostle said he speaks in tongue more than all the Corinthians.
(who were already swinging from the chandeliers) - LOL
And that tongues should NOT be forbidden. Was this reversed?

Peter says this:

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[David in NJ]

I was only wanting clarity David. If the conclusions I've drawn do not align with the Word of God, I certainly want to know how they do not align with the Word of God. I explained in my own words truths I have gleaned from the Bible. I didn't feel you were attacking me.

Thank You Brother for the understanding so that we can better understand.
Think Archery:
God the FATHER, God the SON and God the HOLY SPIRIT has set up for everyone a 'Target' for us to focus on.

The Target is the words of God and the Target has a 'Direct Center/Bullseye' that we are Commanded to.

When we study God's word we are all aiming for that DIRECT CENTER called Truth.

We can hit the Target many many times and even get very close to the DIRECT CENTER, however if we miss ever slightly to the left, to the right, high, or low - we are not getting to the DIRECT CENTER which is TRUTH.

 

[amigo de christo]

#1 TRUTH = "LOVE REJOICES in TRUTH" = "THY WORD is TRUTH" = JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

Dont heed what ellig g wrote . cessationsim , IT IS FALSE DAVID . IT IS FALSE .

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, thanks for launching a thread on such an important, and misunderstood topic.

I think we are off on the wrong foot by labeling the manifestations of the Holy Spirit as "sign gifts".
That is a Cessationist term used to blaspheme the work of the Holy Spirit. (unforgivable)

Furthermore, it was not "revealed" to the Apostle that "the sign gifts"
would "cease before His Second Coming." (that which is perfect)

Typically those who use the term "sign gifts" claim they were given to the Apostles
only as a sign and ended when the last Apostle died.

But what do 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14, and Acts chapter 2 tells us about the gifts?

The gifts are like body parts that make up a whole.
Do we want to make an amputee of the body of Christ by removing parts?

The Apostle said he speaks in tongue more than all the Corinthians.
(who were already swinging from the chandeliers) - LOL
And that tongues should NOT be forbidden. Was this reversed?

Peter says this:

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Graciously and Wonderfully said Dear Brother - Thank You

 

[St. SteVen]

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

I just re-read that passage and made a discovery.
What is known in part "disappears", BUT, it is replaced by the whole.

Are those who are anti-tongues, also anti-knowledge and anti prophecy? (vs 8)
- Will knowledge pass away? (disappear completely)
- Will prophecy pass away? (disappear completely)
- Will tongues pass away? (disappear completely)

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 NIV
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies,
they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child. When I became a man,
I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;
then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part;
then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[marks]

my Brother marks,

Loved your post and yet there is something very important lacking in it.

'Love' was not lacking so it must be something else.........what could it be in relation to 1 Cor ch13 ???

What indeed? Feel free to chime in . . . That's what we do . . . I'm not really going to be trying to figure out what it may be you have in mind . . . I expressed my thought.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"Signs and wonders" are not the same as "spiritual gifts" for edification.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Thank You Brother for the understanding so that we can better understand.
Think Archery:
God the FATHER, God the SON and God the HOLY SPIRIT has set up for everyone a 'Target' for us to focus on.

The Target is the words of God and the Target has a 'Direct Center/Bullseye' that we are Commanded to.

When we study God's word we are all aiming for that DIRECT CENTER called Truth.

We can hit the Target many many times and even get very close to the DIRECT CENTER, however if we miss ever slightly to the left, to the right, high, or low - we are not getting to the DIRECT CENTER which is TRUTH.

You imply that I have added to and/or taken away from the Word of God. I understand how easily one might fall into this error. The Word of God tells us to use wisdom that comes from Him to discern what is written. Faithful saints have always been given and even encouraged to explain what and why we believe particular doctrines from Scripture, according to spiritual wisdom given each of us. That's why when ascending to the Father in heaven, Christ says He "gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Christ gave His Church faithful men who are able to preach and teach for perfecting us in the work of the ministry, and for edifying the body of Christ. That we might all come to unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God.

Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Faithful men of God have always had the liberty to teach and speak in their own words the things of Scripture that are difficult for many to understand. It is only when our words do not align with the Word of God but are instead being said out of a prideful heart, or to deceive that we should be admonished for teaching that which is not in accord with all that is written. We have a rich history and heritage from many Godly men that have gone before us, leaving us sermons and teaching that has blessed the body of Christ (Church) greatly over the years.

Peace

 

[St. SteVen]

They have not ceased. I still speak in tongues daily. That which is perfect has not yet come in me... When and if it does, I suppose I will stop speaking in tongues.

Or more likely, speak in tongues perfectly, completely. Fluently, with understanding and freedom of expression.

 

[St. SteVen]

You said: "When the last of the 120 disciples who were at Pentecost (Acts 2) died, the gifts stopped being transmitted."

This is a fairy tale often told in churches.

I imagine the last person to speak in tongues choking on their words as the last Apostle died. Ridiculous. - LOL
Ichabod. The glory has departed. (1 Samuel 4:21)

God gave the Promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to His Bride/Elect/Church and this Promise remains for all who Believe the Word in Faith.

Exactly.
Jesus said to wait for the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, for the power to be his witnesses.
Has witnessing ceased with the Apostles?

 

[St. SteVen]

Originally, the purpose of tongues was for people to spread the gospel to people who spoke different languages, if I am not mistaken. For example, I don't speak Spanish, but the gift of tongues would allow me to spread the gospel in Spanish to people who spoke Spanish.

The original purpose?

This happened at Pentecost. What happened after Peter's sermon?
What evidence of the gift was given after water baptism?
What was missing in Samaria? (evidence = speaking in tongues)
Check out the topic.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...

www.christianityboard.com

Now the "gift of tongues" seems to mean you speak out in language nobody understands during a worship service. I have my doubts if that is really speaking in tongues.

Ignorance.
This is what happens when those who know nothing about tongues seek to instruct those who do.
FYI

Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language
3) A prophetic message for a congregation
4) Warfare prayer in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)

There are more uses...

 

[St. SteVen]

b) The Completed Canon of All Scripture?

The perfection to come?

Wow. Most Christians seem to have no idea where the Bible came from.
The canon was a voted-on collection of books. Of which there are several. (canons)
Which canon was perfect? None actually. We only have copies of copies of copies of the originals manuscripts.
Bad translations galore. Politics, power plays, and doctrinal bias in translation.
And some scriptures were voted out. Like 3 Corinthians and Laodecians.
The Apocrypha is a part of the canon. Nowhere to be found in my copy.

Biblical canon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org