Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

[atpollard]

Where did I state that?

Post #6 (near the end)

 

[OzSpen]

John 6:44 states that all those DRAWN will also be raised, so if you advocate “all people without exception are drawn” then how do you not embrace the unbiblical “universal salvation of all people without exception”?

at,

I do not believe in universalism, i.e all people will be saved.

I do not of my own initiative advocate 'all people wihout exception are drawn'. That's the teaching of Jesus in John 12:32 (NIV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Your problem seems to be a biblical understanding of free will, the power of alternate choice. All human beings have this choice - given by God:

The Bible has many verses that support the 'whosoever' may come and others reject:

• John 3:16 (NIV): 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life'.

• John 3:36 (NIV): 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them'. So, people have the ability to believe in the Son for eternal life OR reject the Son and not receive eternal life but experience the wrath of God.

• John 5:39-40 (NIV): 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

• Acts 2:21 (NIV): 'And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'.

• Romans 10:13 (NIV), 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'.

That's straightforward if you are open to all the biblical teaching on 'whoever' may come to Jesus and he/sh may 'refuse to come'. God is not a deterministic dictator who forces the elect to come. Salvation is all of the Lord (Eph 2:8-9 NIV) but people have a choice in how they respond.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Post #6 (near the end)

This is what I stated at the end of #6:

19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
You promote false theology with your statement. It cannot be confirmed by the totality of Scripture.

Who are the people Jesus draws to salvation? John 12:32 (ESV) is crystal clear: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself"'.​

That does not state I do not believe in total depravity. I was addressing the topic of who can be drawn to Christ from 'the totality of Scripture'. Have you confused 'the totality of Scripture' with 'total inability'?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Actually Calvinism DISTORTS both the sinfulness of man and the sovereignty of God. We could go into a lot of detail, but until and unless you are prepared to accept the fact that Calvinism is NOT Bible truth, nothing will make any difference.

Enoch,

I think you have overstated the case with your hyperbole, 'Calvinism is NOT Bible truth'. You know I'm not a Calvinist but there is some splendid teaching about the doctrine of God and other doctrines in the writings of Calvinism, including those of John Calvin.

I have learned much from reading Calvinist theologians such as Louis Berkhof, Wayne Grudem, R C Sproul, etc. I have a number of Calvinistic commentaries on my shelf including those by D A Carson, Leon Morris, William Hendriksen and Simon Kistemaker.

I recommend this article: What Calvinism I oppose and why | Roger E. Olson - Patheos

See also Roger Olson, ‘What’s wrong with Calvinism?‘ (Society of Evangelical Arminians).


Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Actually Calvinism DISTORTS both the sinfulness of man and the sovereignty of God. We could go into a lot of detail, but until and unless you are prepared to accept the fact that Calvinism is NOT Bible truth, nothing will make any difference.

Enoch,

I don't find this kind of statement helpful, 'Calvinism DISTORTS both the sinfulness of man and the sovereignty of God', because you don't give sources for your statement. If you don't provide evidence of who 'distorts' these doctrines, you are making assertions with no documentation.

oz

 

[OzSpen]

Not at all. Indeed, Reformed theology confirms the need of the Scriptures as the tool by which God brings men to repentance. You dismiss the very power of God in salvation, claiming that it is by man. Just because it is not man that makes the decision does not make the Gospel any more or less powerful; it merely makes MAN less powerful. In fact, the power of the Gospel is INCREASED, because it is able to reach the hearts of the unwilling by the power of God.

Mjh,

The Calvinistic position you advocate is contrary to Scripture which states the God provides salvation and people can choose to accept or reject it. How so?

• John 3:36 (NIV): 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them'. So, people have the ability to believe in the Son for eternal life OR reject the Son and not receive eternal life but experience the wrath of God.

• John 5:39-40 (NIV): 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

I also am Reformed in theology - a leaky Reformed Arminian because I accept believers' baptism.

Oz

 

[Mjh29]

I do not of my own initiative advocate 'all people wihout exception are drawn'. That's the teaching of Jesus in John 12:32 (NIV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Read the context. Good solid theology is never built on pulling verses out of context. Let's examine the previous verses, so that we can get an understanding of the context:

John 12:20-22 – Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast; these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” Philip came and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip came and told Jesus. [Bold added]

So we see here that the "all" being referenced here is not speaking of every human being ever. It is referencing all KINDS of people; we see this fact confirmed elsewhere in the Scriptures:

Galatians 3:28-29- There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can see that your interpretation, that all men are drawn to God, cannot be. All who are called to God are justified and glorified.

Romans 8:30 - And those whom He predestined he also called, and those whom He called he also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

If you are called or drawn to Christ, you will be justified and glorified.

our problem seems to be a biblical understanding of free will, the power of alternate choice.

This is a common misconception. You speak of man as free, but what does it actually mean to be free?

Freedom [Noun]
1.) the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
2.) absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.
3.) the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved

The Scriptures speaks against man's will concerning each and every definition of freedom here;

1.) the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

~ John 8:44
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26

2.) absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

~ Ephesians 2:1-2
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26

3.) the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved

~ John 8:34
~ Romans 6:20
~ Titus 3:3

We can see that men are not free in any definition of the word; we are slaves to sin!!

• John 3:16 (NIV): 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life'.

• John 3:36 (NIV): 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them'. So, people have the ability to believe in the Son for eternal life OR reject the Son and not receive eternal life but experience the wrath of God.

• John 5:39-40 (NIV): 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

• Acts 2:21 (NIV): 'And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'.

• Romans 10:13 (NIV), 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'.

Here is the problem; with each of these verses you are reading into them things that are not there. In order to read these passages, and infer what you are trying to make them say, you have to assume that this process happens apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. You infer that this choosing and rejecting is completely neutral, and 100% all man's choice alone. This is not the case, nor do any of these verses say that. Those who choose God only choose Him because the Spirit has worked on their hearts; they have chosen to love God because they are His elect. Those who reject are not the elect of God; they instead follow the natural path of man which is to hate God.

 

[Mjh29]

Mjh,

The Calvinistic position you advocate is contrary to Scripture which states the God provides salvation and people can choose to accept or reject it. How so?

• John 3:36 (NIV): 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them'. So, people have the ability to believe in the Son for eternal life OR reject the Son and not receive eternal life but experience the wrath of God.

• John 5:39-40 (NIV): 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

I also am Reformed in theology - a leaky Reformed Arminian because I accept believers' baptism.

Oz

Here is the problem; with each of these verses you are reading into them things that are not there. In order to read these passages, and infer what you are trying to make them say, you have to assume that this process happens apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. You infer that this choosing and rejecting is completely neutral, and 100% all man's choice alone. This is not the case, nor do any of these verses say that. Those who choose God only choose Him because the Spirit has worked on their hearts; they have chosen to love God because they are His elect. Those who reject are not the elect of God; they instead follow the natural path of man which is to hate God.

 

[Earburner]

GENESIS 4:


[Genesis 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis

HOwever, inall that you wrote, it can't and doesn't answer this:
Rom. 5

GENESIS 4:


[Genesis 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis

Rom. 5
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch,
I don't find this kind of statement helpful, 'Calvinism DISTORTS both the sinfulness of man and the sovereignty of God', because you don't give sources for your statement. If you don't provide evidence of who 'distorts' these doctrines, you are making assertions with no documentation.

I would simply refer all -- Calvinists and non-Calvinists -- to the Westminster Confession of Faith to check out the distortions for themselves. I believe you would agree that as far as this *gospel* goes, it is a distortion of the true Gospel of God and Christ.

 

[atpollard]

I do not believe in universalism, i.e all people will be saved.

Nobody ever does, but at the same time they also offer no explanation for the statement in John 6:44 that the “drawn” by the Father are also “raised” by the Son ... while claiming “every individual without exception” is drawn and rejecting “some people from every tribe, tongue and nation” are drawn.

 

[atpollard]

This is what I stated at the end of #6:
[snip]
That does not state I do not believe in total depravity. I was addressing the topic of who can be drawn to Christ from 'the totality of Scripture'. Have you confused 'the totality of Scripture' with 'total inability'?
Oz

At the top of post #6, you quoted a single statement from me ...

So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis

At the bottom of post #6 you stated ...

You promote false theology with your statement. It cannot be confirmed by the totality of Scripture.

I claimed that you stated “TOTAL INABILITY” [my statement] was indeed “confirmed by the totality of Scripture” [your claim about my ‘false theology’ promoted with ‘my statement’].

I really should not have to work this hard just to convince you of what you wrote.

 

[atpollard]

HOwever, inall that you wrote, it can't and doesn't answer this:
Rom. 5
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It does not answer a lot of things ...

• Do infants go to heaven or hell if they die?
• Is the millennial reign in Revelation literal of symbolic?
• Is the scriptural stronger case for Credobaptism or the Early Church Father stronger case for Paedobaptism what Jesus intended?

What if we discuss what I actually did write and what it does answer.

However if you are determined that we must discuss Romans 5:18, then are you claiming that Adam’s sin brought universal damnation to each and every person without exception and Christ’s Cross brought universal salvation to each and every person without exception?

If not, then the verse is irrelevant to the topic (without your explaining the relevance).

 

[atpollard]

I would simply refer all -- Calvinists and non-Calvinists -- to the Westminster Confession of Faith to check out the distortions for themselves. I believe you would agree that as far as this *gospel* goes, it is a distortion of the true Gospel of God and Christ.

You must have missed the invitation to actually support your vocal opinions with some proof (as in scripture and exegesis), So let me repeat it for you ...

Man always exercises his free will to choose to reject God. See Romans 1 for a discussion on this topic.​

God causes all things to work together for those called according to HIS purpose. God foreknows and God predestines and God calls and God justifies and God glorifies. [Rom 8:28-30] God teaches and God draws (irresistibly compels) those that will be raised on the last day. [Jhn 6:44-45] God makes alive those that are dead in their sins. [Eph 2:1-9] God works in us both to will (desire) and to do (accomplish). [Phl 2:13]. God gathers a people and God cleanses them and God removes their dead heart (stone) and God gives them a living heart (flesh) and God places His Spirit within them and God CAUSES them to walk in His statutes. [Eze 36:24-27] God has mercy on whomever He wills and God hardens whomever He wills. [Rom 9:18] God is the potter that makes some vessels for wrath and some vessels for honor, because that is His right. [Rom 9:21-24]​

So where are the teachings about the power of man to choose salvation?​

 

[atpollard]

John 3:36 (NIV): 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them'.

• This we agree on, scripture does say this.

So, people have the ability to believe in the Son for eternal life OR reject the Son and not receive eternal life but experience the wrath of God.

• That is one interpretation, but it is not the only interpretation.
• For example the verse is no less true if ...
  • Everyone will naturally choose to reject the Son, placing them in the “wrath” basket:
    • [John 3:19-20 NIV] 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
      
    • [John 10:25-26 NIV] 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
      
    • [Romans 1:18-21 NIV] 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
      
    • [Romans 3:9-12 NIV] 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
      
    • [Ephesians 2:1-3 NIV] 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
  • God will choose to draw some in spite of their nature:
    • [John 6:44 NIV] 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
      
    • [Romans 8:28-30 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
      
    • [Romans 9:16, 18 NIV] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. ... 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
      
    • [Ephesians 2:4-5 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

The Calvinistic position you advocate is contrary to Scripture which states the God provides salvation and people can choose to accept or reject it.

• My goal is NOT to convince you that the Reformed (TULIP) view is correct. I only hope to present a case for your consideration that “Calvinism” is not heretical (contradictory to scripture) but merely an alternative valid understanding of scripture (heterodox). I have presented a lot of scripture to support a view that has no scriptural support.
• As a former Arminian, I know what you believe and probably why. I could make a good defense of Arminianism if I had to. There is nothing wrong with believing that people make the first move and then God responds by saving them (Wesleyan Arminianism as I was taught it at the Church of God). I have just come to believe from verses like Romans 8:28-30 and Ephesians 2:1-10 that God actually makes the first preemptive move, then we respond and then God transforms us. That is the essence of the Particular Baptist brand of “Calvinism”.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Your comment indicates that you did not read my opening post.

First, of course people have free will and are not some sort of automatons. They exercise their free will all the time. However, people do not choose to do things contrary to their nature ... people of sound mind do not choose to set themselves on fire or chop off their legs with a chainsaw, but that does not mean that people are physically incapable of setting themselves on fire or chopping off limbs with a chainsaw. People also do not choose to run to God, confess their sins and repent of their own free will, either.

With all due respect, this just comes across to me as the Calvinist way of saying "you have all the will to choose which flavor of ice cream to eat and all other inconsequential things. Just not free will where it matters: whether or not to accept the freely given gift of God's sacrifice and grace-- on God's going to force everyone's choice."

So I believe what I believe and unless you deny something really fundamental like the Deity of Christ or his resurrection, then as far as I am concerned you are a Christian and free to believe whatever you wish. I will just say “told you so” when we get to heaven and all see that God was always SOVEREIGN and in control. :)

Thumbs up to the first part-- you made me smile. And the second part made me smile too-- we'll all have a high-five in the afterlife when all is revealed to everyone undeniably.

• My goal is NOT to convince you that the Reformed (TULIP) view is correct. I only hope to present a case for your consideration that “Calvinism” is not heretical (contradictory to scripture) but merely an alternative valid understanding of scripture (heterodox). I have presented a lot of scripture to support a view that has no scriptural support.

I'll say this: I personally find Calvinism to be.... false in the extreme (to put it beyond mildly). But I also do except also expect to spend eternity dancing with Christ and plenty people whom were Calvinists in this life and lots of other folks too.

 

[prism]

Your problem seems to be a biblical understanding of free will, the power of alternate choice. All human beings have this choice - given by God:

That may be true before the Fall. But you must at least admit that there has been a damper put on that 'free will' since the Fall.

e.g. slaves of sin, satan, the world, the flesh etc. etc.

 

[Earburner]

It does not answer a lot of things ...

• Do infants go to heaven or hell if they die?
• Is the millennial reign in Revelation literal of symbolic?
• Is the scriptural stronger case for Credobaptism or the Early Church Father stronger case for Paedobaptism what Jesus intended?

What if we discuss what I actually did write and what it does answer.

However if you are determined that we must discuss Romans 5:18, then are you claiming that Adam’s sin brought universal damnation to each and every person without exception and Christ’s Cross brought universal salvation to each and every person without exception?

If not, then the verse is irrelevant to the topic (without your explaining the relevance).

 

[Earburner]

Atpollard,
The choice for judgment of eternal death or eternal life was open to all. However, due to a wrong choice by one, the judgment of eternal death came upon all.

But now, in order for all to escape the judgment of eternal death, it is now again made available to all by One.
For all, it's still a matter of choice!

 

[atpollard]

I'll say this: I personally find Calvinism to be.... false in the extreme (to put it beyond mildly).

False or Horribly unfair?
If salvation were up to a vote, I would vote for Libertarian Free will followed by annihilation of the damned. Unfortunately, God has not asked for my vote or input, so I am stuck with “what does scripture actually say”.

If you think that I have misinterpreted any specific verse that I have quoted or that I have not understood the context correctly, I welcome correction from scripture. If your personal opinion disagrees with mine and you have some other verse that you like to quote more, then I have to assume that I have correctly understood the verse that God has revealed to me and answer to my conscience.