Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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atpollard

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Atpollard,
The choice for judgment of eternal death or eternal life was open to all. However, due to a wrong choice by one, the judgment of eternal death came upon all.

But now, in order for all to escape the judgment of eternal death, it is now again made available to all by One.
For all, it's still a matter of choice!
Where does scripture actually teach any of that (except the part about death coming to all, that part I am familiar with). Too many people are asking me to reject the Scriptures that God wrote and illuminated to me and accept their personal opinions instead. How can I trust you and call the Word of God a liar?

You are asking a great deal.
 

Berserk

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A few years ago, JM became the pastor of a TULIP church in our small city. I got to know Jeff through our local ministerial association. JM soon saw through a fatal flaw in the TULIP position and found himself in a faith crisis that jeopardized the future of his own ministry and the wellbeing of his wife and 3 young children. His spiritual integrity compelled him to confess his non-Calvinistic turn to his church elders and he was promptly fired and told to never show up at his new church again. We spent an afternoon pouring over the standard TULIP texts to see if there was some way of rephrasing his new theology to satisfy these elders. But JM soon saw that his spiritual integrity required him to make a clean break with this heresy. JM and his family eventually needed to leave town in search of adequate employment to support his family. I am in awe of his sacrifice. Many pastors would rationalize their anti-TULIP leanings just to keep their job and retain their financial security.

I was once urged to apply for a New Testament professorship at a Pentecostal seminary. When I told the recruiter that I disagreed with their doctrine of tongues as THE unique initial evidence of Spirit baptism, he replied, "C'mon, you believe in the spirit of their doctrine. So apply anyway!" Integrity forced me to decline, even though I cherish may experiences of the various charisms of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues.
 
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Enoch111

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Too many people are asking me to reject the Scriptures that God wrote and illuminated to me and accept their personal opinions instead.
You accepted the personal opinions of Calvin et al and you're complaining?

God does not contradict Himself, and Jesus (who is God) CONTRADICTED CALVIN right here: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace are all destroyed in these two verses.


Now do you have the personal integrity to believe Christ rather than twist the above verses to fit into Calvinistic theology? Or do you really believe that God directed you to think the opposite of what Christ plainly said (not just here but throughout Scripture)?
 
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Stranger

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I have no problem with Calvinism. Both God's will and man's will are involved in the plan of salvation. (John 6:37) sums it up very well. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Stranger
 
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OzSpen

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Read the context. Good solid theology is never built on pulling verses out of context. Let's examine the previous verses, so that we can get an understanding of the context:

John 12:20-22 – Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast; these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” Philip came and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip came and told Jesus. [Bold added]

So we see here that the "all" being referenced here is not speaking of every human being ever. It is referencing all KINDS of people; we see this fact confirmed elsewhere in the Scriptures:

Mjh,

What a good Calvinist you are.:rolleyes: You have done what I expected, make the text in context say what it does not say. You don't like the biblical idea that Jesus died for the whole world so you resort to make 'all' = 'all KINDS of people'. In Australia, we call that bunkum, nonsense, baloney.

Why? The biblical context of John 12:19-33 (NIV) ruins your argument.

19 So the Pharisees said to one another, ‘See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!’

Jesus predicts his death
20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘we would like to see Jesus.’ 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.

23 Jesus replied, ‘The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.

27 ‘Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? “Father, save me from this hour”? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!’

Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
An excellent Calvinistic commentator on John's Gospel, D A Carson (1991) supports the context that I draw upon:

  1. v. 19, 'the whole world'; 'By the world, the Pharisees mean '"everyone", i.e. everyone in the Jerusalem area, including the pilgrims from all over the Mediterranean basin and beyond. But the world (kosmos; cf. notes on 1:9) commonly refers in the Fourth Gospel to people everywhere without racial distinction but who are lost and in rebellion against God (cf. notes on 3:16, 17)' (Carson 1991:435).
  2. v. 20. 'The Greeks who request to see Jesus not only represent "the whole world" ... but they stand in contrast to the Pharisees who are exasperated by Jesus' growing influence' (Carson 1991:435).
  3. vv. 31-33: 'Here, "all men" reminds the reader of what triggered these statements, viz. the arrival of the Greeks, and means "all people without distinction, Jews and Gentiles alike', not all individuals without exception, since the surrounding context has just established judgment as a major theme (v. 31)' (Carson 1991:444).
Your insulting me is not appreciated: 'Good solid theology is never built on pulling verses out of context'. I know that and am an evangelical Christian with a PhD in New Testament.

My name is not ...

con Oz
 
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OzSpen

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You accepted the personal opinions of Calvin et al and you're complaining?

God does not contradict Himself, and Jesus (who is God) CONTRADICTED CALVIN right here: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace are all destroyed in these two verses.


Now do you have the personal integrity to believe Christ rather than twist the above verses to fit into Calvinistic theology? Or do you really believe that God directed you to think the opposite of what Christ plainly said (not just here but throughout Scripture)?

Enoch,

Don't expect to get anywhere with this approach as many Calvinists redefine 'the world' to mean 'all kinds of people' (see #27 above).

Oz
 
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GodsGrace

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THE TOPIC:
We are (T)otally Incapable of choosing God on our own because sin causes us to always flee from God.

Since this is very well trodden soil, I would prefer to pass on repeating the same old “proof texts”, arguments and counter arguments and approach this from a less travelled direction. Total Inability, the “T” in TULIP, has its roots in the “Adamic curse” and “original sin” and our “sin nature” … and the disagreement is about what these terms mean in our real lives. For this PARTICULAR BAPTIST, they mean that God must save men because men will not choose God.





INTRODUCTION:


I grew up with the expression “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”, which means that children are like their parents. I propose that all human beings are just like our father and mother, Adam and Eve. This is the “original sin” and the “natural man” and the “fallen nature” that scripture and theologians speak of. So let’s take a closer look at the first people and see who we are at our most basic level.





GENESIS 1:


[Genesis 1:26-31 NASB]

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


Three observations from Genesis 1, taken at face value:

  • Man (male and female) was made in the image of God.
  • Man was created to have “dominion” over the earth.
  • Man was created “blessed” and “very good”.

The “image of God” means we possess personality (knowledge, feelings and a will), morality (the capacity to make moral judgements; a conscience), and spirituality (we are made for communion and to communicate with God)


God decreed that man would have “dominion” over the earth as part of His plan even before the creation of man, so our preeminence in creation and ability to affect the environment is God’s plan for man on earth. Therefore, it is a sin for mankind to not use this dominion responsibly through proper stewardship of the earth.


God’s first act for man after creating him, was to “bless” him, and God’s final appraisal of his entire creation was that it was “very good” … which precludes any evil at all in it.


From this I offer the following personal observations:

  • Adam and Eve are what God created them to be.
  • As beings with “personality, morality and spirituality” they were able to think and possess knowledge (make rational decisions), they had a conscience, and they were in communion with and communication with God.
  • Adam and Eve had no external negative “baggage” from previous generations or a bad childhood to blame on any decisions they made.

Therefore, Adam and Eve represent the best that human beings are naturally capable of (morally speaking).
Wow. This is very interesting A,,,
but I need to go through every observation and I'll make my own....
Must leave the house soon...later.
 

OzSpen

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That may be true before the Fall. But you must at least admit that there has been a damper put on that 'free will' since the Fall.

e.g. slaves of sin, satan, the world, the flesh etc. etc.

prism,

Joshua 24 does not agree with that perspective:

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

16 Then the people answered, ‘Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! 17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we travelled. 18 And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.’

19 Joshua said to the people, ‘You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.’

21 But the people said to Joshua, ‘No! We will serve the Lord.’

22 Then Joshua said, ‘You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.’

‘Yes, we are witnesses,’ they replied.

23 ‘Now then,’ said Joshua, ‘throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.’

24 And the people said to Joshua, ‘We will serve the Lord our God and obey him' (Josh 24:14-24 NIV, emphasis added).​

This is quite a while after the Fall into sin and the people still could choose God or foreign gods.

For further details, see my articles:
Oz
 

OzSpen

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THE TOPIC:
We are (T)otally Incapable of choosing God on our own because sin causes us to always flee from God.

atp,

How does that statement fit with Titus 2:11 (ESV),

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ...​

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Nobody ever does, but at the same time they also offer no explanation for the statement in John 6:44 that the “drawn” by the Father are also “raised” by the Son ... while claiming “every individual without exception” is drawn and rejecting “some people from every tribe, tongue and nation” are drawn.

I don't understand what you're saying.
 

atpollard

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Both of those, plus anti-scriptural, and more.

And no, I'm not going to try to argue with you or prostylize you to a different view.
Respectfully, I have presented an awful lot of scriptural support and NONE of it has been refuted by exegesis. Nobody has even attempted to argue that John 6:44 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") does not mean ...
  1. no one can come to Jesus on their own.
  2. The FATHER draws (compels irresistably) everyone that does come to Jesus.
  3. Everyone that comes to Jesus is raised on the last day (to eternal life).
Given the empty opinions presented and the scripture that no one cares to actually explain how I have misunderstood, your repeated claims of "unscriptural" ring hollow, untrue and dishonest.

I am not asking you to "prostylize", but you have come to a Christian Debate topic and refuse to even defend your position. Of what value is a drive-by post that just says "You are wrong"?

... "No, I'm not!"
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Respectfully, I have presented al awful lot of scriptural support and NONE of it has been refuted by exegesis. Nobody has even attempted to argue that John 6:44 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") does not mean ...
  1. no one can come to Jesus on their own.
  2. The FATHER draws (compels irresistably) everyone that does come to Jesus.
  3. Everyone that comes to Jesus is raised on the last day (to eternal life).
Given the empty opinions presented and the scripture that no one cares to actually explain how I have misunderstood, your repeated claims of "unscriptural" ring hollow, untrue and dishonest.

I am not asking you to "prostylize", but you have come to a Christian Debate topic and refuse to even defend your position. Of what value is a drive-by post that just says "You are wrong"?

... "No, I'm not!"
I'm on a forum, I stated my view. And no, I'm really not going to attempt to proselytize you here-- it's a waste of time.
 

atpollard

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But JM soon saw that his spiritual integrity required him to make a clean break with this heresy.
What part of Calvinism is HERETICAL?
You are making serious false accusations of doctrines that have been well grounded in scripture. Disagreeing with an interpreattion does not make it heretical.

Here, I will give you a head start ...

  1. Total Depravity - Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
    1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
  2. Unconditional Election - God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God's election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
    1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God's sovereign choice according to the kind intention of his will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).
  3. Limited Atonement - Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
    1. Christ's blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ's blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples' sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, "Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."
  4. Irresistible Grace - The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God's will. It means that when God moves to the save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God's movement and he will be regenerated
    1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God's desire, not man's ability (Romans 9:18).
  5. Perseverance of the Saints - That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
    1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he get eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith whenever believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

WHICH HERETICAL BELIEF IS COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE?
 

atpollard

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I know that and am an evangelical Christian with a PhD in New Testament.
Technically, an appeal to authority fallacy since credentials cannot be verified on the internet ...

... I am really the Apostle John. I came back just like Jesus promised and the Mormons teach. ;) [not really, just making a point]
 
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prism

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prism,

Joshua 24 does not agree with that perspective:

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

16 Then the people answered, ‘Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! 17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we travelled. 18 And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.’

19 Joshua said to the people, ‘You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.’

21 But the people said to Joshua, ‘No! We will serve the Lord.’

22 Then Joshua said, ‘You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.’

‘Yes, we are witnesses,’ they replied.

23 ‘Now then,’ said Joshua, ‘throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.’

24 And the people said to Joshua, ‘We will serve the Lord our God and obey him' (Josh 24:14-24 NIV, emphasis added).​

This is quite a while after the Fall into sin and the people still could choose God or foreign gods.

For further details, see my articles:
Oz
My reply? A clear teaching on the matter, not an inference from a historical narrative...

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 5:12,14 KJVS
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 3:9-17 KJVS
[9] What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known:
 

atpollard

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atp,

How does that statement fit with Titus 2:11 (ESV),

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ...​

Oz
You know my answer (Rev 5:9) and reject it, so How does Titus 2:11 fit with John 6:44 and Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9:21?
  • [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  • [Rom 9:21 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
 

atpollard

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I don't understand what you're saying.
The same people that insist on telling me that "every person without exception" was drawn in John 3, refuse to touch the fact that in John 6:44 everyone drawn comes to Jesus and is raised to eternal life at the last day. I know it does not say "to eternal life" in John 6:44 but what is the point of the verse in its context if God draws and teaches and raises you to eternal damnation? [... and people accuse the God of Calvinism of being a monster. :) ]