Featured Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

Both of those, plus anti-scriptural, and more.

And no, I'm not going to try to argue with you or prostylize you to a different view.

 

A few years ago, JM became the pastor of a TULIP church in our small city. I got to know Jeff through our local ministerial association. JM soon saw through a fatal flaw in the TULIP position and found himself in a faith crisis that jeopardized the future of his own ministry and the wellbeing of his wife and 3 young children. His spiritual integrity compelled him to confess his non-Calvinistic turn to his church elders and he was promptly fired and told to never show up at his new church again. We spent an afternoon pouring over the standard TULIP texts to see if there was some way of rephrasing his new theology to satisfy these elders. But JM soon saw that his spiritual integrity required him to make a clean break with this heresy. JM and his family eventually needed to leave town in search of adequate employment to support his family. I am in awe of his sacrifice. Many pastors would rationalize their anti-TULIP leanings just to keep their job and retain their financial security.

I was once urged to apply for a New Testament professorship at a Pentecostal seminary. When I told the recruiter that I disagreed with their doctrine of tongues as THE unique initial evidence of Spirit baptism, he replied, "C'mon, you believe in the spirit of their doctrine. So apply anyway!" Integrity forced me to decline, even though I cherish may experiences of the various charisms of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues.

 

You accepted the personal opinions of Calvin et al and you're complaining?

God does not contradict Himself, and Jesus (who is God) CONTRADICTED CALVIN right here: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace are all destroyed in these two verses.

Now do you have the personal integrity to believe Christ rather than twist the above verses to fit into Calvinistic theology? Or do you really believe that God directed you to think the opposite of what Christ plainly said (not just here but throughout Scripture)?

 

I have no problem with Calvinism. Both God's will and man's will are involved in the plan of salvation. (John 6:37) sums it up very well. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Stranger

 

Mjh,

What a good Calvinist you are. You have done what I expected, make the text in context say what it does not say. You don't like the biblical idea that Jesus died for the whole world so you resort to make 'all' = 'all KINDS of people'. In Australia, we call that bunkum, nonsense, baloney.

Why? The biblical context of John 12:19-33 (NIV) ruins your argument.

19 So the Pharisees said to one another, ‘See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!’

Jesus predicts his death
20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘we would like to see Jesus.’ 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.

23 Jesus replied, ‘The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.

27 ‘Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? “Father, save me from this hour”? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!’

Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
​

An excellent Calvinistic commentator on John's Gospel, D A Carson (1991) supports the context that I draw upon:

1. v. 19, 'the whole world'; 'By the world, the Pharisees mean '"everyone", i.e. everyone in the Jerusalem area, including the pilgrims from all over the Mediterranean basin and beyond. But the world (kosmos; cf. notes on 1:9) commonly refers in the Fourth Gospel to people everywhere without racial distinction but who are lost and in rebellion against God (cf. notes on 3:16, 17)' (Carson 1991:435).
   
2. v. 20. 'The Greeks who request to see Jesus not only represent "the whole world" ... but they stand in contrast to the Pharisees who are exasperated by Jesus' growing influence' (Carson 1991:435).
3. vv. 31-33: 'Here, "all men" reminds the reader of what triggered these statements, viz. the arrival of the Greeks, and means "all people without distinction, Jews and Gentiles alike', not all individuals without exception, since the surrounding context has just established judgment as a major theme (v. 31)' (Carson 1991:444).

Your insulting me is not appreciated: 'Good solid theology is never built on pulling verses out of context'. I know that and am an evangelical Christian with a PhD in New Testament.

My name is not ...

con Oz

 

Enoch,

Don't expect to get anywhere with this approach as many Calvinists redefine 'the world' to mean 'all kinds of people' (see #27 above).

Oz

 

Wow. This is very interesting A,,,
but I need to go through every observation and I'll make my own....
Must leave the house soon...later.

 

prism,

Joshua 24 does not agree with that perspective:

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

16 Then the people answered, ‘Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! 17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we travelled. 18 And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.’

19 Joshua said to the people, ‘You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.’

21 But the people said to Joshua, ‘No! We will serve the Lord.’

22 Then Joshua said, ‘You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.’

‘Yes, we are witnesses,’ they replied.

23 ‘Now then,’ said Joshua, ‘throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.’

24 And the people said to Joshua, ‘We will serve the Lord our God and obey him' (Josh 24:14-24 NIV, emphasis added).​

This is quite a while after the Fall into sin and the people still could choose God or foreign gods.

For further details, see my articles:

• Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15
• Can people choose to reject salvation?
• Choice or determinism in salvation

Oz

 

atp,

How does that statement fit with Titus 2:11 (ESV),

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ...​

Oz

 

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

I'm on a forum, I stated my view. And no, I'm really not going to attempt to proselytize you here-- it's a waste of time.

 

My reply? A clear teaching on the matter, not an inference from a historical narrative...

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 5:12,14 KJVS
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 3:9-17 KJVS
[9] What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: