Toward Death More Abundantly Instead... of Life?

[amadeus]

This is at the heart then. We read the Bible in entirely different ways, so there should be no surprise when we arrive at entirely different understandings.

OK, but there are more to our differences than that.

I'm curious though in the interpretation of these parables, who IS the interpreter? I know we say it is the Holy Spirit, but what when each have their own interpretation?

Mixed messages by double minded men! Every man is still a liar when his own interpretations come into play... so every man in that group remains double minded. James speaks of the double minded, while Paul speaks of the old man and the new man, and John the Baptist spoke of Him increasing while we are decreasing. Until there is no mixture in a man, that man will not always speak only the Truth. Jesus did... but He never had old ways and sinful habits and wrong beliefs to mix with God's Truth.

A Way has been provided for men to move up 'higher', but when people have set even some of their beliefs in concrete, they effectively quench the Holy Spirit in them at least part of the time. This is the problem as I see it.

This passage . . . I believe it is not speaking about how we read and understand prophecy, rather, it is telling us that the prophet didn't write what they themself thought, no, the spoke as they were carried by the Holy Spirit.

They wrote it down as God gave it to them, and similarly, I believe, we only understand it correctly when the same Holy Spirit gives it to us.

I'm curious . . . what is the account of Jesus' resurrection a parable for? Aren't we trusting in a literal Jesus rising from the dead? Or is that not right?

Are we trusting in a literal Jesus? What is literal? Is it not that which is real? What is reality? Material things measurable by the measurement instruments of science using the scientific method? Why would that be so?

Is not Reality rather God and the things of God?

There are real things described in the written Bible, but what is it we see of them when we read the Bible? Can always tell the difference between types or shadows and real things?

Some who read are completely blind.

Most, who are reading see as through a glass darkly.

Does anyone see absolutely clearly what God has for them? This is our vision without which we simply perish. How clear is our vision?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:... Prov 29:18

From blindness to Paul's as through darkened glass to Jesus' second touch, which is finally seen here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Where are we, each of us, at the moment? Where will we be at the end of our course?

 

[marks]

A Way has been provided for men to move up 'higher',

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are we trusting in a literal Jesus? What is literal? Is it not that which is real? What is reality? Material things measurable by the measurement instruments of science using the scientific method? Why would that be so?

Is not Reality rather God and the things of God?

So then what does this say about whether or not a flesh and bone man lived and died and rose from among the dead, back to the living?

I have no idea how your answer gives an answer. It sounds like you are saying no one can really know.

Is that what you mean?

 

[amadeus]

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Much love!

One moves up high when he meets the Lord and begins to seek first His kingdom and His righteousness [Matt 6:33]. Moving up is growing closer to God. The actual individual pathway is somewhat varied according to the part of the Body of Christ the person is to be, where the person already is in relation to God and how willing the person is to really surrender completely to the lead of the Holy Spirit. This is off the top of my head so I may have missed something. Details are all, or mostly all, in the written scriptures when we are able to find them and if we understand what we read when and if we do. Can a person come to God without the written scriptures? Yes, but go slow on that one if you have a Bible already. We really need to use everything that God has given us... which often these days in so-called western countries would include a Bible.

Jesus says "come unto me..." This begins when we first hear it. How closely we approach is up to us. There is no limit with God. Any limits are on our part. God is at the top and we are at the bottom when and if we start. I am not speaking of a physical location. Does this help with your question?

You are a Bible student and probably you would know all of the scriptures I could cite, but I don't remember them and I am no longer able to quote them verbatim. I lost that ability years ago. Now when God sees that I need a verse for a situation He shows me where it is and I use copy and paste on the computer. In the flesh it would work differently.

 

[amadeus]

So then what does this say about whether or not a flesh and bone man lived and died and rose from among the dead, back to the living?

I have no idea how your answer gives an answer. It sounds like you are saying no one can really know.

Is that what you mean?

We can know all that God reveals to us. How much He does reveal depends on what His purpose for us is and how willing we are to follow His lead and how hungry and thirsty we are for more. Some people never know any of it because they do not need to or they do not want to... etc. Again with God there is no limit? With man there is the limit he puts on himself. If we ask of God for the right reason, will He refuse us? Lots of examples in scripture. Consider when the disciples told Jesus to call fire down from heaven to consume them. They asked amiss. When you are walking with God and hearing Him there should be no instance of asking amiss.

 

[Philip James]

Indeed! This what I see as what men often call "free will". There are only two choices really expressed in the scriptures, which Jesus calls God or mammon... the latter one being "death".

I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live,

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

Satan knows in order for him to deceive the world he must first deceive the Christians ..

Deceive or destroy.. That will come...

Peace be with you!

 

[amadeus]

Satan knows in order for him to deceive the world he must first deceive the Christians ...and he's using the word of God to do it.

How? By twisting the meaning of words so that it serves mankind and the kingdom of the devil, rather than God and His kingdom.

Even so! That so many are walking in darkness and call it light is an indication of how blind a person can be. I guess they will see the ditch toward which they are heading as heaven!

 

[mjrhealth]

Satan knows in order for him to deceive the world he must first deceive the Christians ...and he's using the word of God to do it.

How? By twisting the meaning of words so that it serves mankind and the kingdom of the devil, rather than God and His kingdom.

Yes isnt it odd that you would raise this in this very post, How many read the bible and think because one called it the "word of God",no longer need God so instead of going as it says to the one who is life they follow the bible and there own understanding, reasoning into death.

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Born again baptized they say, but denying His power.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[mjrhealth]

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Much love!

Him, Jesus the Christ, " But you will not come to Me so you can have life' Jesus. I am the way the truth and the life, that Jesus.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

that is in the people forming church groups [denominations, assemblies, etc.] there really is a lot of this happening, taking hold of death instead of Life.

What qualification does a church minister need? None. Any person could get a minister of religion certificate.

 

[FollowHim]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

In my own experience, and from what I have seen or read about in others, "churches" ... that is in the people forming church groups [denominations, assemblies, etc.] there really is a lot of this happening, taking hold of death instead of Life.

After a person has a real special personal encounter with God that first time, which should be the beginning of a growing relationship with God in which the person begins to become like God, what often happens? Someone has already established, or in the case of a new group establishes, rules, and has defined, or now defines, them in writing... or otherwise set in concrete. Now they have an order of services perhaps even supported [apparently] by scriptures but very often put into place by men according to what is comfortable or convenient for men.

These things are then done, including described essential doctrines, written creeds, etc., which so often effectively quench the lead of the Holy Spirit, which really was/is available to lead them. The newbies come in, unless they refuse to let go of what God has given them, and are taught and receive all of these streamlined ways to "death more abundantly" offered in so many places... including Christian Internet forums.

So then after perhaps really having begun their gatherings together with the Lord in lively Life-filled meetings it diminishes and down the way some may wonder what has happened? [Some of course blindly follow along toward the ditch... very close now, which they are never able to see.]

Apostle Paul admonished people with these simple words:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Very simple words, but by many never understood, or forgotten, or simply passed by... For too many who really had received Life, the Life, which Jesus brought, is it not a effectively a fall back and a turn back to death? And as our friend @bbyrd009 has mentioned often a pursuit of "death more abundantly"?

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

That is how the Baptist expressed it but doesn't it seem to anyone that someone has effectively reversed the words so that it is now too often the "old man" of people on the increase and the "new man" on the decrease? Moving away now from Life and plunging into death: On the way to salvation like Lot's wife but then turning back with a yearning look back toward death... and then dead, unmoving salt. A pillar in their church!

I would summarise this reality by two concepts. The first is the meaning of words intellectually and secondly the meaning of the words emotionally. This language might sound odd but it all depends on where our emotional focus is. And what people do not see is we are actually 100% emotional creatures, defined or shifted by our thought processes and models.

So what you are experiencing now, as you read this is you current emotional status. It either tells you there is lots to do, or you can relax and take it easy. Everything one reads or does has an emotional impact, either to increase the sense of lots to do or increases the peace and stasis. So the words maybe fantastic, but if they actually mean nothing needs to shift, then their meaning is irrelevant.

How words touch us, change our balance within, only that has power. It is therefore astounding that the same words change the hearts of some, but do not touch the hard hearts of sinners. So a church movement that says within a culture one emotional expression is not acceptable, the group who connect into this, form their new group. Once the formula to recreate the experience is established, it freezes into this static object. But Jesus is calling us to reality, to seeing, the reality within, and how in Him we can change and bring life into every situation, to see progress in our relationships and contacts.

I have had contact with those who see me as their past formulation of spiritual experience, so therefore I must become their new formulation, as if this is reality or they are doing anything more than seeing the world only through their lens. But for them the whole world is only defined by their lens, to the degree they put words into my mouth declaring they are 100% correct. Now this is a formulation of lost not those in Jesus, who see the realities and delusions of emotional language.

In the house group my wife goes to, two women know everything and hold forth on their pet issues, all the time, irrespective of Gods word or the subject to be studied. Their failure is not seeing there are so many different perspectives and theirs is just one, and they are disregarding the need for others to express their insight and praise to God. It is this emotional sacrifice of praise that matters, not the intellectual framework of getting it right.

The life spark is often seeing another aspect of walking in Jesus, and its failure is settling for this step as if this defines everything while it is just another step along the road to glory. Praise the Lord that nothing in Him stands still or in our lives as we walk with Him, Amen

 

[amadeus]

What qualification does a church minister need? None. Any person could get a minister of religion certificate.

Indeed this is so according to men and their ways. However, God does call people to His ministries and give them effectively as gifts to help others become one with Him:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Eph 4:11-14

Unfortunately there some who attracted by the carnal possibilities of a position in a 'church' will strive to get into that position. They care nothing for the things of God nor about His people. There also those who have really been called by God and actually sent by Him to people, who get soon weary in well doing and forsake their calling in favor of the desires of their own flesh. So what are we to do?

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt 7:15-20

And the fruits, both of the flesh and of the Spirit?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Gal 5:19-23

 

[amadeus]

I would summarise this reality by two concepts. The first is the meaning of words intellectually and secondly the meaning of the words emotionally. This language might sound odd but it all depends on where our emotional focus is. And what people do not see is we are actually 100% emotional creatures, defined or shifted by our thought processes and models.

So what you are experiencing now, as you read this is you current emotional status. It either tells you there is lots to do, or you can relax and take it easy. Everything one reads or does has an emotional impact, either to increase the sense of lots to do or increases the peace and stasis. So the words maybe fantastic, but if they actually mean nothing needs to shift, then their meaning is irrelevant.

How words touch us, change our balance within, only that has power. It is therefore astounding that the same words change the hearts of some, but do not touch the hard hearts of sinners. So a church movement that says within a culture one emotional expression is not acceptable, the group who connect into this, form their new group. Once the formula to recreate the experience is established, it freezes into this static object. But Jesus is calling us to reality, to seeing, the reality within, and how in Him we can change and bring life into every situation, to see progress in our relationships and contacts.

I have had contact with those who see me as their past formulation of spiritual experience, so therefore I must become their new formulation, as if this is reality or they are doing anything more than seeing the world only through their lens. But for them the whole world is only defined by their lens, to the degree they put words into my mouth declaring they are 100% correct. Now this is a formulation of lost not those in Jesus, who see the realities and delusions of emotional language.

In the house group my wife goes to, two women know everything and hold forth on their pet issues, all the time, irrespective of Gods word or the subject to be studied. Their failure is not seeing there are so many different perspectives and theirs is just one, and they are disregarding the need for others to express their insight and praise to God. It is this emotional sacrifice of praise that matters, not the intellectual framework of getting it right.

The life spark is often seeing another aspect of walking in Jesus, and its failure is settling for this step as if this defines everything while it is just another step along the road to glory. Praise the Lord that nothing in Him stands still or in our lives as we walk with Him, Amen

Perhaps within your words there is something similar to what I wrote, but you speak in a language difficult for me to follow... Hopefully the difference in manner of expression will be correctly understood regarding God's Way by some who may have difficulty understanding my manner of expression. God understands us all and interprets His Truth for any hungry and thirsty heart:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled" Matt 5:6

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28

 

[mjrhealth]

@amadeus Funny thing is after I made my post I was talking to Pia about this

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Because I always left out that first line, that first line basically says,

Because they dont believe Him, they search the scriptures. Now i finally see why He said it.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus Funny thing is after I made my post I was talking to Pia about this

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Because I always left out that first line, that first line basically says,

Because they dont believe Him, they search the scriptures. Now i finally see why He said it.

Very good my friend! Often, I believe, it seems, people correctly cite a verse(s) and leave out a critical part. Some scriptures are plain enough to understand in a certain circumstance, but all too often it takes more. God will help us... if we really want the Truth of the matter.

 

[FollowHim]

Perhaps within your words there is something similar to what I wrote, but you speak in a language difficult for me to follow... Hopefully the difference in manner of expression will be correctly understood regarding God's Way by some who may have difficulty understanding my manner of expression. God understands us all and interprets His Truth for any hungry and thirsty heart:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled" Matt 5:6

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28

Maybe I could put it more simply which is something I observed as a teenager going to a youth group.
If I went along to church because I went along to church God did not speak to me.
If I went along to church, thanking Jesus in the moment for this opportunity, and asking Him to speak, He did.

Now on the outside it was the same thing, but on the inside it was a form of faith, or exercising faith in reality.
Am I truly going to meet the Lord, or just to be with others doing a group event?

We walk with the Holy Spirit in our hearts all the time, so it is not the meeting that makes the difference.
We can speak with the Lord at home, at work or in church. But in truth only when the inner man opens up do we know we are ready. God bless you

 

[bbyrd009]

as if someone who has this hope is deluded to the point of seeking 'Death More Abundantly'.

and fwiw marks i dont think i have ever trashed anyone's beliefs; it's when the "you have to believe exactly like i do or you are going to hell" jazz starts that i usually comment

 

[amadeus]

Maybe I could put it more simply which is something I observed as a teenager going to a youth group.
If I went along to church because I went along to church God did not speak to me.
If I went along to church, thanking Jesus in the moment for this opportunity, and asking Him to speak, He did.

Now on the outside it was the same thing, but on the inside it was a form of faith, or exercising faith in reality.
Am I truly going to meet the Lord, or just to be with others doing a group event?

We walk with the Holy Spirit in our hearts all the time, so it is not the meeting that makes the difference.
We can speak with the Lord at home, at work or in church. But in truth only when the inner man opens up do we know we are ready. God bless you

Thank you for the renewed explanation. Now I understand. Sorry but this old man is kind of slow with some things.

 

[bbyrd009]

Matthew 2:23 "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."

It seems that it was inhabited by at least one.

Not sure your evidence, but I would question whatever disagrees with the Bible.

then give us your comments at the Scriptures Quoted in here if you would pls,
Israelite Origins: putting away childish things | Biblical Historical Context
and ty

no offense and i dont know, ok, but i suggest that you accept that every single thing you know from your current understanding of the Bible is 180 degrees wrong ok