"Tradition" in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism

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GracePeace

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(Posted in debate as well.)

I have doubts about the definition (redefinition) of what Paul termed "tradition" as put forth by these groups.

Premises :
1. Scripture was paramount to Paul's doctrine, and it should be to ours as well.
To which authorities did Paul appeal when establishing doctrine? I seem to remember "as it is written".
2a. The Scripture equips for every good work.
The Torah is capable of condemning all manner of evil works "or whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10--a negative iteration, I assert, of the following positive 2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2b. God makes His will known in His Word.
"God wouldn't make His will, His instructions, known in His Word." Would you agree with this statement, or wouldn't it be absolutely bizarre if He would not have communicated His will in His inspired Word?

Conclusion: Scripture both equips for every good work and condemns every evil work--these both being true of Scripture, being twin realities, of course, would make perfect sense--nothing should be able to add to what Scripture does along these lines.​

Problem : Paul refers to a (nebulous) "tradition" to which we are to adhere. The ambiguity of this term I believe the Orthodox and Catholics abuse, seizing upon it as an opportunity to add all manner of un-Scriptural requirements (both beliefs and works) which they claim are "necessary"--variously, to be considered "Orthodox", not "heterodox", or even "saved", etc.

On "tradition", then : First, we have an explicitly "spoken word" tradition (Paul mentions two "categories" into which "tradition" may fall--"either by our spoken word or by our letter") which was later transmitted in a "letter"--ie, never was it thought prohibited to put "spoken word" traditions into "writing" nor vice versa (there was no intentionally hidden treasury of "spoken word" traditions).
Now, this is also the only "spoken word" tradition (explicitly expressed as such) we have later committed to a "letter"--show me if there is another, since I'm interested in knowing--so this is a rare opportunity we have to study and determine the nature of "tradition" 2 Thessalonians 3

6Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.d

So, the tradition transmitted (by word and deed) to the Thessalonians was that of never eating anyone's bread without paying for it, but working night and day, so as not to be burdensome, and was intended to preempt idleness. Ultimately, there was even a command issued in order to keep people in step with the tradition : "If anyone is not willing to work let him not eat."

So, the question is : does this tradition add to Scripture? Are Christians who look primarily to Scripture for their "teaching in righteousness" lacking without this "spoken word" "tradition" which was later committed to "writing"?

No, I would argue, they are not.

This "tradition" could be established independent of Paul--from Scripture alone--for it is nothing more than a reiteration of Genesis 3:19.

"Tradition", from this perspective, then, resembles that of the Jews' and their "halachot" (authoritative rulings on how to practically live the Scriptures out)--no surprise, I guess, since Paul was himself a Pharisee Acts of the Apostles 23:6.

Now, is it just by coincidence the same Greek word (παράδοσιν--paradosin) describes the "traditions" of the Pharisees (the ones Christ denounced) Matthew 15:1-9? Certainly, the Pharisees's "traditions" were wrong, but the intent is what is of import--the intent of their "traditions" was that they would live the Scriptures (where God had expressed His will for them) out.

I assert, then, that Paul's "traditions" were authoritative rulings on how to live the Scriptures out--therefore, "tradition" does not add to Scripture, which "equips us for every good work".
 
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GracePeace

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You won't get the Traditionalists to give up their traditions. But the traditions of Paul were not those of the Traditionalists.
All of these things are easy to say (as anything may be merely emptily asserted); I hope I have provided reasonable and Scriptural bases for rejecting baseless (ie, not Scriptural) "tradition".
 

Wrangler

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"Tradition" in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism

Jews also added 100’s of laws in their ‘tradition.’ This, coupled with RCC & EOC ‘tradition’ show the human pattern over and over again to presume equality with God.

The Original Sin remains alive in the fleshy part of our nature.

This is why it is always prudent to return to First Principles. See Mark 7:13.
 

GracePeace

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Jews also added 100’s of laws in their ‘tradition.’ This, coupled with RCC & EOC ‘tradition’ show the human pattern over and over again to presume equality with God.

The Original Sin remains alive in the fleshy part of our nature.

This is why it is always prudent to return to First Principles. See Mark 7:13.
I hope the OP was enriching.
 

Wrangler

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I assert, then, that Paul's "traditions" were authoritative rulings on how to live the Scriptures out--therefore, "tradition" does not add to Scripture, which "equips us for every good work".

Agreed. For the last decade, I have taken a deep dive into cultural influence upon human thought. This is akin to ‘tradition.’

The Christian culture in America has been under attack since the Sexual Revolution of the ‘60’s. And technology has aided in abrupt cultural changes as well. So that while Paul was steeped in Tradition, we are practically void of tradition.

I stay grounded in Paul’s maxim to be all things to all people so that some might come to Christ.
 
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GracePeace

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Agreed. For the last decade, I have taken a deep dive into cultural influence upon human thought. This is akin to ‘tradition.’

The Christian culture in America has been under attack since the Sexual Revolution of the ‘60’s. And technology has aided in abrupt cultural changes as well. So that while Paul was steeped in Tradition, we are practically void of tradition.

I stay grounded in Paul’s maxim to be all things to all people so that some might come to Christ.
Paul's "tradition" would not, I don't think, have been understood as we understand "tradition" (ie, in the phrase "steeped in tradition"); my point was precisely that--that we cannot afford to casually or haphazardly define the term, and that we find contexts in Scripture for substantively defining the term in a way that precludes the illicit encroachment into it which forms like Orthodoxy and Catholicism represent.
 
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DPMartin

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(Posted in debate as well.)

I have doubts about the definition (redefinition) of what Paul termed "tradition" as put forth by these groups.

Premises :
1. Scripture was paramount to Paul's doctrine, and it should be to ours as well.
To which authorities did Paul appeal when establishing doctrine? I seem to remember "as it is written".
2a. The Scripture equips for every good work.
The Torah is capable of condemning all manner of evil works "or whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10--a negative iteration, I assert, of the following positive 2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2b. God makes His will known in His Word.
"God wouldn't make His will, His instructions, known in His Word." Would you agree with this statement, or wouldn't it be absolutely bizarre if He would not have communicated His will in His inspired Word?

Conclusion: Scripture both equips for every good work and condemns every evil work--these both being true of Scripture, being twin realities, of course, would make perfect sense--nothing should be able to add to what Scripture does along these lines.​

Problem : Paul refers to a (nebulous) "tradition" to which we are to adhere. The ambiguity of this term I believe the Orthodox and Catholics abuse, seizing upon it as an opportunity to add all manner of un-Scriptural requirements (both beliefs and works) which they claim are "necessary"--variously, to be considered "Orthodox", not "heterodox", or even "saved", etc.

On "tradition", then : First, we have an explicitly "spoken word" tradition (Paul mentions two "categories" into which "tradition" may fall--"either by our spoken word or by our letter") which was later transmitted in a "letter"--ie, never was it thought prohibited to put "spoken word" traditions into "writing" nor vice versa (there was no intentionally hidden treasury of "spoken word" traditions).
Now, this is also the only "spoken word" tradition (explicitly expressed as such) we have later committed to a "letter"--show me if there is another, since I'm interested in knowing--so this is a rare opportunity we have to study and determine the nature of "tradition" 2 Thessalonians 3

6Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.d

So, the tradition transmitted (by word and deed) to the Thessalonians was that of never eating anyone's bread without paying for it, but working night and day, so as not to be burdensome, and was intended to preempt idleness. Ultimately, there was even a command issued in order to keep people in step with the tradition : "If anyone is not willing to work let him not eat."

So, the question is : does this tradition add to Scripture? Are Christians who look primarily to Scripture for their "teaching in righteousness" lacking without this "spoken word" "tradition" which was later committed to "writing"?

No, I would argue, they are not.

This "tradition" could be established independent of Paul--from Scripture alone--for it is nothing more than a reiteration of Genesis 3:19.

"Tradition", from this perspective, then, resembles that of the Jews' and their "halachot" (authoritative rulings on how to practically live the Scriptures out)--no surprise, I guess, since Paul was himself a Pharisee Acts of the Apostles 23:6.

Now, is it just by coincidence the same Greek word (παράδοσιν--paradosin) describes the "traditions" of the Pharisees (the ones Christ denounced) Matthew 15:1-9? Certainly, the Pharisees's "traditions" were wrong, but the intent is what is of import--the intent of their "traditions" was that they would live the Scriptures (where God had expressed His will for them) out.

I assert, then, that Paul's "traditions" were authoritative rulings on how to live the Scriptures out--therefore, "tradition" does not add to Scripture, which "equips us for every good work".


in the context of what Paul says about scripture, especially OT wise scripture is a documentation of a peoples relationship with the Almighty the Lord their God. God said and did they said and did in relationship to what God said and did. that's it. documented by Jew to Jews for Jews except any epistles to gentile communities but still written by Jews. and its the view of Paul that those born again that were gentiles are grafted in, or adopted.

Paul mainly speaks of and refers to and quotes the books of Moses. and that is what he is talking about scripture wise. he was a scholar of the Torah, before he met Christ, let alone what he studied after he met Jesus.
 

GracePeace

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in the context of what Paul says about scripture, especially OT wise scripture is a documentation of a peoples relationship with the Almighty the Lord their God. God said and did they said and did in relationship to what God said and did. that's it. documented by Jew to Jews for Jews except any epistles to gentile communities but still written by Jews. and its the view of Paul that those born again that were gentiles are grafted in, or adopted.

Paul mainly speaks of and refers to and quotes the books of Moses. and that is what he is talking about scripture wise. he was a scholar of the Torah, before he met Christ, let alone what he studied after he met Jesus.
Please clarify how this is a response to the OP. Are you agreeing or disagreeing or what?
 

Wrangler

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Paul's "tradition" would not, I don't think, have been understood as we understand "tradition" (ie, in the phrase "steeped in tradition"); my point was precisely that--that we cannot afford to casually or haphazardly define the term

I believe you are over thinking it. The point is idolatry; not to make tradition into a manmade god.
 

GracePeace

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I believe you are over thinking it. The point is idolatry; not to make tradition into a manmade god.
1. This is a discussion forum for discussing the Bible and you are finding fault with studying to understand Scripture. All right, I'm not sure what you want me to say. I really want to understand what's being said, but you apparently couldn't be bothered--you are free to leave the conversation.

2. No, MY point (I wrote the OP) is NOT "don't idolize tradition". You may make your own thread and make that point. MY point is understanding what "tradition" refers to in the first place, so that we can follow the truth on the matter, not just thoughtlessly dismiss others (the Orthodox and Catholics have real arguments which must be thoughtfully and satisfactorily responded to).
Now, you may not care about these things, but I do, thus I made the OP. If you do not care, fine, do not respond, but don't tell others what they ought to care about or commit their minds to studying. Who are you to do that?
 
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theefaith

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Without tradition or the teaching authority of the apostles there is no way to know what is scripture and what is not scripture!

the church and the apostles with authority from Christ existed before the New Testament
They wrote the New Testament
They cannonized the Bible declaring what is and what is not scripture and only the church has authority from Christ to interpret scripture

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

The apostles are commanded to teach and to shepherd and command His people (Matt 28:19) to the obedience of the faith! (Rom 1:5) the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15
 

GracePeace

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Without tradition or the teaching authority of the apostles there is no way to know what is scripture and what is not scripture!

the church and the apostles with authority from Christ existed before the New Testament
They wrote the New Testament
They cannonized the Bible declaring what is and what is not scripture and only the church has authority from Christ to interpret scripture

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

The apostles are commanded to teach and to shepherd and command His people (Matt 28:19) to the obedience of the faith! (Rom 1:5) the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15
1. Oops! It looks like you responded before reading. Proverbs 18:13.
2. "Scripture" referred to in 2 Timothy 3 was determined by Ezra and the men of the Great Assembly--it had nothing to do with "the church" (any church--let alone Rome).
3. As stated in the OP you seemed not to have read, I don't know that your definition of "tradition" was what Paul had in mind.
 

theefaith

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1. Oops! It looks like you responded before reading. Proverbs 18:13.
2. "Scripture" referred to in 2 Timothy 3 was determined by Ezra and the men of the Great Assembly--it had nothing to do with "the church" (any church--let alone Rome).
3. As stated in the OP you seemed not to have read, I don't know that your definition of "tradition" was what Paul had in mind.

Its the apostles who teach Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
 

GracePeace

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Its the apostles who teach Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
There's a reason Paul had so much more understanding than his teachers.

Psalms 119:99
I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.

Scripture!

Again, your response without having first read is your folly and shame Proverbs 18:13.
 

GracePeace

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Its the apostles who teach Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
You're not here to "discuss" anything, you're here to emptily and baselessly pontificate, so stop pretending you have anything to reason about regarding the OP. Go away.
 

theefaith

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There's a reason Paul had so much more understanding than his teachers.

Psalms 119:99
I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.

Scripture!

Again, your response without having first read is your folly and shame Proverbs 18:13.

Your silly

the subject is tradition that means the teaching authority of the church

You want Paul ok

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you

that is tradition
Handed down
Taught Lk 1:4 instructed
We must be taught Matt 28:19

Bible alone no!
Acts 2:42 held fast to the Bible alone? No
They held fast to the doctrine (teaching) of the apostles, who have the authority to teach

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
 

theefaith

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You're not here to "discuss" anything, you're here to emptily and baselessly pontificate, so stop pretending you have anything to reason about regarding the OP. Go away.

cant handle the truth, I see
 

theefaith

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2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

that’s you
 

GracePeace

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