Tradition Versus Scripture
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Because it is a very vague term. There are many kinds of sexual immorality and I don't know of a single church that welcomes such behavior.
I don't see the term as vague at all and apparently Paul didn't either as he didn't feel the need to explain it. You claim to know a lot about sexual immorality ("There are many kinds of sexual immorality"), yet you are not aware of a church that condones it? I find that hard to believe.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Believe what you want. Simply because you claim it doesn't mean a thing. And again, I am not aware of any church that condones sexual immorality.
Romans 1:24 - Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
Romans 1:26 - Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 7:3 - So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
1 Corinthians 7:2 - But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
BTW, since you brought this up and can't seem to notice any in the church, I'm curious as to what your definition of sexual immorality is?
Attachments
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Nice try. Romans 1 is about idolaters who deny the existence of God.
And Romans 7 is about the law versus the Spirit. But I guess that you missed that too.
And your quoting 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to the discussion. You are saying that there is sexual immorality in today's churches. Simply defining what sexual immorality is useless in proving your claim.
Nice try, It was easy to figure out from the beginning where this exchange was going and I guess I'm not going to get your definition of sexual immorality because you don't have one. Your reference to Matthew 7:1-2 is very common for someone who doesn't like what scripture says. It's not the judgement of others that you have to worry about.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of definitions of sexual immorality in the Bible -- and elsewhere. I'm not going to list them for you on a Christian forum. BTW, Matthew 7:1-2 is common knowledge, but I guess you think it doesn't apply to you, judging by your post.
I place my faith in Jesus based on the truth in the Bible, so please provide the "plenty of definitions of sexual immorality in the bible" so we can review and discuss.
It's not my job to convince you of the truth in scripture - that is up to you. It's also not my job to judge you - Jesus will do that if you choose to follow the ways of evil. You have discounted scripture that to me clearly defines sexual immorality. Why? Because you don't like what is said? You have a different interpretation of those verses so where did you get it? From other people? If you truly believe those verses have nothing to do with sexual immorality, then break it down for me and explain what they mean and why. In addition, feel free to present the verses that provide numerous other definitions of sexual immorality and we can discuss them too.
However, you are wasting your time if you think I will listen to words of others over scripture. The word of God is difficult to follow, but I try and understand what it is God wants from me. When I read how you discount the verses I presented on sexual immorality I don't see your interpretation in the slightest....not even a bit.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The Best 40 Bible Verses About Sexual Immorality | Christian.net
Sexual immorality in the Bible: Does God permits same sex marriage? Know what acts are considered sexually immoral in the Bible.
christian.net
Anyone looking for loopholes in scripture to justify their non-biblical behavior, is not a true believer in Jesus. I was like that because of the Gospel author names and other stories of tradition that gave me doubts. I just had a long discussion with my son-in-law who was doing the same thing with baptism. I asked him why his wife and my granddaughter were baptized a few weeks ago and he chose not to be. He said he didn't have doubts in Jesus, he just found that it wasn't necessary to get baptized, then he pointed me to a select verse about baptism that supported his view. I read it and could see it was a stretch, but I could also see his point. I gave him some more scripture on baptism and he knew he was defeated, but never claimed to change his mind about baptism; he thought he had found a Jesus loophole. Jim B. is doing the same with sexual immorality - trying to interpret scripture to allow sin. I formerly did it, my son-in-law was doing it, and Jim B. is doing it.
Many churches and church organizations do this too. In fact, it's more common then not. They cherry pick a verse or two to allow a certain non-biblical behavior or provide a twist in belief to justify their existence, then refuse to look at additional scripture that clearly indicates that they are not following the words of Jesus. There is only one church of Jesus Christ and all Christians who live in it will receive the gift of eternal life. The Holy Spirit graciously showed me that my doubts were going to keep me out of heaven. So will yours. Do not fall for the scripture cherry picking tactic that will allow you to continue living the way you did before you claimed to accept Jesus, because Jesus knows your heart and you will not live.
Blessings
Many churches and church organizations do this too. In fact, it's more common then not. They cherry pick a verse or two to allow a certain non-biblical behavior or provide a twist in belief to justify their existence, then refuse to look at additional scripture that clearly indicates that they are not following the words of Jesus. There is only one church of Jesus Christ and all Christians who live in it will receive the gift of eternal life. The Holy Spirit graciously showed me that my doubts were going to keep me out of heaven. So will yours. Do not fall for the scripture cherry picking tactic that will allow you to continue living the way you did before you claimed to accept Jesus, because Jesus knows your heart and you will not live.
Blessings
Johann
Well-Known Member
A dangerous pitfall for all of us.
2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
J.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Gal_1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
2Th_2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2) "And hold the traditions" (kai krateite tas paradoseis) "ana hold ye the traditions", good customs, traditions, ways the apostles and saints have trod, 1Co_11:2; 2Th_3:6.
Hold the traditions (krateite tas paradoseis).
Present imperative of krateō, old verb, to have masterful grip on a thing, either with genitive (Mar_1:31) or usually the accusative as here.
Paradosis (tradition) is an old word for what is handed over to one. Dibelius thinks that Paul reveals his Jewish training in the use of this word (Gal_1:14), but the word is a perfectly legitimate one for teaching whether oral, by word (dia logou), or written, by epistle of ours (di' epistolēs hēmōn).
Paul draws here no distinction between oral tradition and written tradition as was done later. The worth of the tradition lies not in the form but in the source and the quality of the content. Paul in 1Co_11:23 says: “I received from the Lord what I also handed over (paredōka) unto you.”
He praises them because ye “hold fast the traditions even as I delivered them unto you.” The tradition may be merely that of men and so worthless and harmful in place of the word of God (Mar_7:8; Col_2:6-8).
It all depends. It is easy to scoff at truth as mere tradition. But human progress in all fields is made by use of the old, found to be true, in connection with the new if found to be true. In Thessalonica the saints were already the victims of theological charlatans with their half-baked theories about the second coming of Christ and about social duties and relations.
Which ye were taught (has edidachthēte). First aorist passive indicative of didaskō, to teach, retaining the accusative of the thing in the passive as is common with this verb like doceo in Latin and teach in English.
RWS
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"the traditions" This term (pardosis) is used in several senses:
in 1 Cor. 11:2,23 for gospel truths
in Matt. 15:6; 23:1ff.; Mark 7:8; Gal. 1:14 of Jewish traditions
in Col. 2:6-8 of gnostic speculations
Roman Catholics use this verse as a biblical proof-text for Scripture and tradition being equal in authority
However, in this context it refers to Apostolic truth either spoken or written (cf. 2 Thess. 3:6).
παραδόσεις
Transliteration: paradoseis
Morphology: N-AFP
Noun - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's no.: G3862 (παράδοσις)
Meaning: An instruction, tradition.
paradosis .
1. This word for "tradition" means "what is transmitted" rather than "transmission" in the NT. It has an unfavorable sense when used of the tradition that is added to the law, e.g., that of the elders in Mar_7:3; Mar_7:5, or of men in Mar_7:8. Jesus rejects the validity of additions to the divine law. The use is more comprehensive in Gal_1:14, embracing written as well as unwritten traditions.
2. Christian teaching is also tradition in 1Co_11:2; 2Th_2:15. It must be adhered to by the churches (1Co_15:2). To be valid it must be handed down (1Co_15:3) and must derive from the Lord (11:23), i.e., it must have divine authority. One may see from 1Co_15:3ff; 1Co_11:23 ff. that it is older than Paul and is already acquiring a fixed form in his day.
[F. BUCHSEL]
Just my 2 cents brother-
J.
2Th_2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2) "And hold the traditions" (kai krateite tas paradoseis) "ana hold ye the traditions", good customs, traditions, ways the apostles and saints have trod, 1Co_11:2; 2Th_3:6.
Hold the traditions (krateite tas paradoseis).
Present imperative of krateō, old verb, to have masterful grip on a thing, either with genitive (Mar_1:31) or usually the accusative as here.
Paradosis (tradition) is an old word for what is handed over to one. Dibelius thinks that Paul reveals his Jewish training in the use of this word (Gal_1:14), but the word is a perfectly legitimate one for teaching whether oral, by word (dia logou), or written, by epistle of ours (di' epistolēs hēmōn).
Paul draws here no distinction between oral tradition and written tradition as was done later. The worth of the tradition lies not in the form but in the source and the quality of the content. Paul in 1Co_11:23 says: “I received from the Lord what I also handed over (paredōka) unto you.”
He praises them because ye “hold fast the traditions even as I delivered them unto you.” The tradition may be merely that of men and so worthless and harmful in place of the word of God (Mar_7:8; Col_2:6-8).
It all depends. It is easy to scoff at truth as mere tradition. But human progress in all fields is made by use of the old, found to be true, in connection with the new if found to be true. In Thessalonica the saints were already the victims of theological charlatans with their half-baked theories about the second coming of Christ and about social duties and relations.
Which ye were taught (has edidachthēte). First aorist passive indicative of didaskō, to teach, retaining the accusative of the thing in the passive as is common with this verb like doceo in Latin and teach in English.
RWS
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"the traditions" This term (pardosis) is used in several senses:
in 1 Cor. 11:2,23 for gospel truths
in Matt. 15:6; 23:1ff.; Mark 7:8; Gal. 1:14 of Jewish traditions
in Col. 2:6-8 of gnostic speculations
Roman Catholics use this verse as a biblical proof-text for Scripture and tradition being equal in authority
However, in this context it refers to Apostolic truth either spoken or written (cf. 2 Thess. 3:6).
παραδόσεις
Transliteration: paradoseis
Morphology: N-AFP
Noun - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's no.: G3862 (παράδοσις)
Meaning: An instruction, tradition.
paradosis .
1. This word for "tradition" means "what is transmitted" rather than "transmission" in the NT. It has an unfavorable sense when used of the tradition that is added to the law, e.g., that of the elders in Mar_7:3; Mar_7:5, or of men in Mar_7:8. Jesus rejects the validity of additions to the divine law. The use is more comprehensive in Gal_1:14, embracing written as well as unwritten traditions.
2. Christian teaching is also tradition in 1Co_11:2; 2Th_2:15. It must be adhered to by the churches (1Co_15:2). To be valid it must be handed down (1Co_15:3) and must derive from the Lord (11:23), i.e., it must have divine authority. One may see from 1Co_15:3ff; 1Co_11:23 ff. that it is older than Paul and is already acquiring a fixed form in his day.
[F. BUCHSEL]
Just my 2 cents brother-
J.
Excellent article brother - thank you!!!The Best 40 Bible Verses About Sexual Immorality | Christian.net
Sexual immorality in the Bible: Does God permits same sex marriage? Know what acts are considered sexually immoral in the Bible.
Amen - "The worth of the tradition lies no in the form but in the source and the quality of the content." The disciples were given the authority by Jesus and therefore they are they only valid source. I consider Paul the replacement disciple because Jesus visited and commissioned him.
If you haven't been through the Catholic Catechism, I recommend it because it's a fascinating book of cherry picking and circular arguments that end up pointing to tradition to justify all their claims and work requirements.
I see your 2 cents as worth a fortune. Thanks for sharing.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I also place my faith in Jesus based on the truth in the Bible. Read my post #148 re providing definitions of sexual immorality on this forum.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
It's not my job to convince you of the truth in scripture - that is up to you. It's also not my job to judge you - Jesus will do that if you choose to follow the ways of evil.
Read my previous post. I WILL NOT GO INTO DETAIL ABOUT SEXUAL IMMORALITY. Why are you trying to convince me to do so? Do you have a need to see sexual matters spelled out?
You are wasting your time if you think I will listen to your words over Scripture. The word of God is not difficult to follow if you read a good translation.
Anyone looking for loopholes in scripture to justify their non-biblical behavior, is not a true believer in Jesus.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Both your son-in-law and I are right. And you are lying when you claim that I am trying to interpret scripture to allow sin. Did satan prompt you to write that?
You sound like @amigo when yo0u write garbage such as "Many churches and church organizations do this too. In fact, it's more common then not. They cherry pick a verse or two to allow a certain non-biblical behavior or provide a twist in belief to justify their existence.. You refuse to look at additional scripture that clearly indicates that you are not following the words of Jesus.
Do not fall for the scripture cherry-picking tactic that will allow you to continue living the way you did before you claimed to accept Jesus, because Jesus knows your heart and you will not live.
I challenged you to stick to scripture to explain yourself and you have avoided it thus far except for a few very general statements claiming that the verses I presented address something other than sexual immorality. I'll ask again - please explain why those verses do not pertain to sexual immorality - especially when the verses reference the term "sexual immorality" in them?
You also claimed that there are numerous definitions of sexual immorality and I challenged you to present and discuss these, but thus far you have avoided this too. Your words have no value, but scripture does, so let's have a scripture debate, otherwise I suggest we leave this subject. Johann presented a great starting point above too.
BTW I went to your site to try to understand your belief better, and while on your site, I noticed that you are located in SF, NM. My wife and I just spent four days in SF.
