Traditional Roman Catholic Here

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MattO

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Interesting.
But I hope you know what a heresy is...
1. Number 1 is not a heresy.

2. I have my doubts about number 2. Some annulments are honest and true,,,some are not. But this is also not a heresy.

3. This is not a heresy.

4. This is complicated and I won't get into it... the way you've worded it, I'd have to say it's correct.

5. I just looked up Human Community in my CCC and it's not listed.
I don't really know what this is so if you could give me some paragraph numbers?

I do believe you're concerned about a one-world government or a one-world religion. I think some would like us to be headed that way but we're still a long way off. Nationalism is also being phased out to get to the one-world govt. I have a feeling Jesus will be returning before all that. I certainly hope so.

P.S. Regarding number 4...I do believe this Pope has changed Catholic doctrine.
Heresy is a teaching that is against what was traditionally taught. To say that it is unimportant/unnecessary for a woman to wear a cover on her head at mass is heresy since the scriptures say they should.

Statistics that show that the Novus Ordo has been dishing out annulments and divorces at much higher rates since Vatican II suggests heresy. Again, this is against tradition.

Ecumenism suggests heresy. It at least leaves suspicion for it.

As far as #5 goes, Civil rights is not so much of a heresy as it is a false teaching which is closely related to heresy. I guess I should have clarified on this. But it might be able to be construed this way (heresy).
 
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GodsGrace

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Heresy is a teaching that is against what was traditionally taught. To say that it is unimportant/unnecessary for a woman to wear a cover on her head at mass is heresy since the scriptures say they should.

Statistics that show that the Novus Ordo has been dishing out annulments and divorces at much higher rates since Vatican II suggests heresy. Again, this is against tradition.

Ecumenism suggests heresy. It at least leaves suspicion for it.

As far as #5 goes, Civil rights is not so much of a heresy as it is a false teaching which is closely related to heresy. I guess I should have clarified on this. But it might be able to be construed this way (heresy).
Hi MO,

A woman's head covering is tradition, not a doctrine.
It's a rule of the CC, it is not a doctrine of the CC.

heresy
ˈhɛrɪsi/

noun
  1. belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
    "Huss was burned for heresy"
    sinonimi: dissension, dissent, dissidence, blasphemy, nonconformity, unorthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy, freethinking, schism, faction; Altro
    • opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.
      "the heresy of being uncommitted to the right political dogma


Divorce, remarriage and receiving communion OTOH, is a more serious discussion, but I'm sure this isn't the place for it. I do agree with you...it's become far too common. Seems the world is affecting the church more than the church is affecting the world.
 
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Enoch111

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LOL
I have.
It's not full of heresies.
It does have some teachings we would not agree with.
When the Bible says one thing and a church or denomination says the exact opposite, that is heresy, plain and simple.

When the Bible says that eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the RCC says that sacraments are NECESSARY for salvation, that too is heresy. And that is not the only heresy.

The Catholic Church accused the Reformers of being heretics because they chose to follow the Bible. But there is a catalog of heresies within the Catechism for those who are willing to examine it in the light of Scripture.
 

Enoch111

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I'm sorry. I can't have a constructive debate with someone who does not answer any of my questions.
We don't need to debate and the Bible is where you must go for answers. As I already said, put aside your Catechism and do some intensive independent Bible study. Use all the legitimate Bible study tools which are now freely available on line. Check Bible Hub. It is excellent.
 
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GodsGrace

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When the Bible says one thing and a church or denomination says the exact opposite, that is heresy, plain and simple.

When the Bible says that eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the RCC says that sacraments are NECESSARY for salvation, that too is heresy. And that is not the only heresy.

The Catholic Church accused the Reformers of being heretics because they chose to follow the Bible. But there is a catalog of heresies within the Catechism for those who are willing to examine it in the light of Scripture.
Well, I know both.
So what in the CCC is heresy?
Is Calvinism heresy? It changes the nature of God. It's blasphemous.
Is eternal security a heresy? The idea might cause some to lose their salvation.
Is not believing in the Real Presence a heresy? Maybe WE'RE wrong.

I looked up Sacraments again. I've always known that they dispense grace...not salvation. I found paragraph 1084:

1084 "Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

It's not so important to me but I dislike misinformation.
Some friends of mine say pretty weird things about Protestants too.

 

GodsGrace

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We don't need to debate and the Bible is where you must go for answers. As I already said, put aside your Catechism and do some intensive independent Bible study. Use all the legitimate Bible study tools which are now freely available on line. Check Bible Hub. It is excellent.
I do agree that the bible should be read and THEN the CCC.
The bible has the ability to save...
The CCC does not.
 

Enoch111

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It's not so important to me but I dislike misinformation.
There is no misinformation at all. Here is item 1129 from the CCC, with a footnote [51] from the Council of Trent:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51

Then we have this in 1257 with footnote [59] which is a reference to John 3:5
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59

But when you turn to John 3:5, it does NOT mention baptism but "water", and the Bible says that water is a metaphor for the Word of God, and that we are born again through the Word of God (which is the Gospel). I have purposely capitalized "Word" below, since that is how we understand it today.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word... (Eph 5:25,26)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

So how did the Catholic Church miss all of this and insist that the water of baptism regenerates a soul and is necessary for salvation?

If that were true, then Paul would not have said this, and could not have said this: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:17,18)

If baptism were necessary for salvation Paul would have said "to preach the Gospel as well as to baptize" since both would be critical components.
 
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aspen

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Speculation is not heresy. In order to qualify as heresy, a false idea needs to taught as doctrine.
 
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Stranger

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Speculation is not heresy. In order to qualify as heresy, a false idea needs to taught as doctrine.

A false idea needs only be voiced to be heresy. Whether it is taught or not is immaterial. Nice dodge though...so your opinions could not be heretical. Which they are.

Stranger
 

aspen

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A false idea needs only be voiced to be heresy. Whether it is taught or not is immaterial. Nice dodge though...so your opinions could not be heretical. Which they are.

Stranger

Boy, I really got your goat......
 

MattO

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Hi MO,

A woman's head covering is tradition, not a doctrine.
It's a rule of the CC, it is not a doctrine of the CC.

heresy
ˈhɛrɪsi/

noun
  1. belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
    "Huss was burned for heresy"
    sinonimi: dissension, dissent, dissidence, blasphemy, nonconformity, unorthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy, freethinking, schism, faction; Altro
    • opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.
      "the heresy of being uncommitted to the right political dogma


Divorce, remarriage and receiving communion OTOH, is a more serious discussion, but I'm sure this isn't the place for it. I do agree with you...it's become far too common. Seems the world is affecting the church more than the church is affecting the world.
It says in scripture that a woman should cover her head in submission to her husband. If its in the Bible it is doctrine. Before Vatican II, you could walk into a Catholic Church and witness many women wearing head covers.
 

MattO

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Speculation is not heresy. In order to qualify as heresy, a false idea needs to taught as doctrine.
Plus the person has to be corrected. If he/she persists in error after the fact then they would be guilty of heresy.
 

MattO

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There is no misinformation at all. Here is item 1129 from the CCC, with a footnote [51] from the Council of Trent:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51

Then we have this in 1257 with footnote [59] which is a reference to John 3:5
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59

But when you turn to John 3:5, it does NOT mention baptism but "water", and the Bible says that water is a metaphor for the Word of God, and that we are born again through the Word of God (which is the Gospel). I have purposely capitalized "Word" below, since that is how we understand it today.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word... (Eph 5:25,26)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

So how did the Catholic Church miss all of this and insist that the water of baptism regenerates a soul and is necessary for salvation?

If that were true, then Paul would not have said this, and could not have said this: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:17,18)

If baptism were necessary for salvation Paul would have said "to preach the Gospel as well as to baptize" since both would be critical components.

Please refer to next post. Ignore this one.
 
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MattO

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There is no misinformation at all. Here is item 1129 from the CCC, with a footnote [51] from the Council of Trent:

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51

Then we have this in 1257 with footnote [59] which is a reference to John 3:5
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59

But when you turn to John 3:5, it does NOT mention baptism but "water", and the Bible says that water is a metaphor for the Word of God, and that we are born again through the Word of God (which is the Gospel). I have purposely capitalized "Word" below, since that is how we understand it today.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word... (Eph 5:25,26)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

So how did the Catholic Church miss all of this and insist that the water of baptism regenerates a soul and is necessary for salvation?

If that were true, then Paul would not have said this, and could not have said this: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:17,18)

If baptism were necessary for salvation Paul would have said "to preach the Gospel as well as to baptize" since both would be critical components.
I am getting a different translation for Ephesians 5:25, 26. I use the Douay-Rheims 1899 version. But I think when it says the "Word" that the Word is Jesus Christ (John 1:1). I am not seeing how this verse is metaphorical.

Of course, I do believe John 3:5 is talking about Baptism (a Sacrament).

Yes we must believe. The Sacraments give us spiritual benefits that aid us in Believing. Without them we are toast.

As far as your last statement, I think that we should be careful about our interpretations of scripture by considering the context and possibilities of what it could be saying. Perhaps Paul had already Baptized the people in which he was speaking to.

I am not seeing your point.