Why don't you study the CCC for yourself. It is full of heresies.
Traditional Roman Catholic Here
- Thread starter MattO
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Ah, clearly youre not a Catholic but a poser who is trying to discredit us.
You probably should of done some research, then you might have known what i said by 'discuss this with your confessor' meant.
Time to humble yourself and learn what the Church actually teaches if you wish to be Catholic.
Pax!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I would like to clarify this again. It has been clarified for the fiftieth time but it seems the clarification falls on deaf ears.
It is Catholicism that is opposed, not Catholics. Perhaps you do not understand the difference?? If you don't I am happy to clarify it otherwise please make the distinction if you desire to be accurate.
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
That sounds all very good....
But I can't say that I can agree with you here.
I have seem many angry, nasty, name calling posts to the Catholic members here.
And I have seen them defend what they believe by the same level of hostility.
It is the main issue on the Site which lowers the spiritual atmosphere of this place. Most other members seem to be able to disagree in a good spirit.
Here's one glaring heresy from the CCC:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51
The footnote [51] is a reference to the Council of Trent (designed specifically to overthrow Protestantism).
Does the Bible teach that the sacraments are necessary for salvation? Not at all. Let's take Romans 10 as one of the clearest passages about salvation.
ROMANS 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above,
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [NO SACRAMENT MENTIONED]
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
I do not see how this passage [Romans 10] goes against what the Catechism says. The Sacraments are mentioned in other parts of the Bible.
What most Catholics and other people do not realize (because very few people become believers let alone make it to Heaven) is that the Sacraments are the means in which we receive the gift of Faith. You just wouldn't realize that unless you became a believer. This is closely related to ancient Judaism.
In the beginning stages of the Church, the Church saw massive influxes of Catechumens. Those Catechumens were described as having hearts burning with God's love. The Catechumens were called "Catechumen" because they had yet to be Baptized. Baptism represented the formal entry into the Body of Christ.
Its is also described in the New Testament as being the new means (instead of circumsicion) to becoming apart of the Abrahamic Covenant as well as receiving the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
You just wouldn't realize it unless you became a believer.
Last edited:
Well if the sacraments were necessary for salvation, this is the passage in which they would be clearly mentioned. The fact that they are omitted is very significant, but of course you would not want to admit that. It would mean giving up on Catholicism.
The Scriptures which are clear statements shed light on those which may be ambiguous. So take a look at this next passage and see once again that the CCC teaches heresy about salvation:
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26) [NO MENTION OF SACRAMENTS]
I guess I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by how the Sacraments are "not mentioned". What is it that you are looking for? Are you requiring that they be clearly stated by name (i.e. Baptism, Confirmation, Reconciliation etc. etc.)?
The way I view it is this way...
That nearly everything that happened in the Old Testament alluded to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. That practices such as Baptism are rooted in the practices of Ancient Judaism. In ancient Judaism, Baptism was not called Baptism but the practice of submerging people under water with a resulting physical and spiritual cleansing effect was widely practiced by Jewish priests. Everything in the Old Testament alluded to Jesus Christ, His ministry, and the practices of His priestly order.
One thing I will say about Baptism in the priestly order of Jesus Christ is that it has a slightly different context than it did in Judaism.
Now it is the new circumsicion that gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and admits us into the Body of Christ. Beforehand, it simply had physical and spiritual cleansing effects.
Another point I like to make when it comes to this Old Testament/New Testament correlation...
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE VIRGIN MARY
In the Old Testament (I Can't remember where to find it off hand), there is a King who pulls up a chair next to his throne for his mother to sit in. She sits down, then he tells her that whatever she asked of him she could have. This passage alludes to the relationship between Jesus Christ and Mary.
In the New Testament, the wedding of Cana gives us an idea of what the relationship between Jesus and Mary is. But even more interestingly, we Catholics, believe that the woman who comes down from the clouds wearing a crown of stars in the book of Revelation is the Queen Mary from Heaven. This is why we believe in Marian apparitions...
Many years ago, a Marian apparition visited one of the Saints and revealed to him the Rosary. She then instructed him on how to use it and then to pass it on to the Church.
As scripture says, the prayer of the righteous brings powerful healing. Being second in command of the entire universe, Queen Mary's prayers are very very very very powerful.
Hi Matt! Welcome! I was skimming over your welcome thread and am unsure if this is the type of good discussion you were talking about, or if this group is going to scare you away. 
I honestly felt like I was reading Greek, because I know nothing about Catholicism, except what my aunt has explained to me. But I like this forum a lot. There are a lot of good threads and discussions. And you handle yourself well!
I honestly felt like I was reading Greek, because I know nothing about Catholicism, except what my aunt has explained to me. But I like this forum a lot. There are a lot of good threads and discussions. And you handle yourself well!Thanks.Hi Matt! Welcome! I was skimming over your welcome thread and am unsure if this is the type of good discussion you were talking about, or if this group is going to scare you away.
It is not what I am looking for. It is what what you should be looking for. If there is no mention of sacraments in Romans 10 (a very important and critical passage), that should tell you that the CCC is false.
Can I raise a point before we go further? Why do the Sacraments need to be in a specific point in the Bible? Do you not see everything in the Bible as being important?
I am thinking that Romans 10 is referring to Catechumens.
If a church or denomination teaches that "THE SACRAMENTS ARE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION" that is not something to pass by with a glance. Either there must be Scripture to support that, or it is a Satanic lie. So when we see Romans 10 showing us in detail how men may be saved, and yet not mentioning sacraments, it means that sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation. And you could go to many other passages of Scripture which will corroborate the teaching in Romans 10. So that doctrine about sacraments is a concoction of the Catholic Church, not a teaching of Christ or the apostles.
Yes everything is important, but the basis of salvation is the most important thing. If you get that wrong, nothing else will fit or matter.
There is nothing in that passage to refer to Catechumens. Which is another subject that needs to be addressed according to Scripture.
Last edited:
I do disagree with you. I use Old Testament to help interpret the overall picture of the New Testament. I believe that God divinely arranged the Old Testament so that it would allude to the life, ministry, and priestly order of Jesus Christ. If there is a New Testament/Old Testament correlation then I suspect that things happened for a reason.
Nobody disagreed with you that eternal Salvation in Heaven is most important. Its just that there is a such thing as Salvation on Earth that we can fall from.
Last edited:
Let me ask you this? Is it Romans 10:9 or Romans 10:13 as to how we are saved? I think we can both agree that you can't just pluck one verse correct? How about not plucking just a single Chapter when it comes to Salvation Theology? Could we cause ourselves to error by doing so?
Welcome. Hope you have a good experience here.
Whether you are of the Roman church or Protestant church, the important thing is that you have placed faith in Jesus Christ as Son of God and your Savour. Here's hoping you have.
Stranger
Correct.
Romans 10 provides more detail than most chapters, but it is representative of the whole Gospel, the power of the Gospel, and how sinners are saved. Paul summed it up in Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And yes, we do not develop any doctrine on the basis of just one verse or passage, although if it is consistent with Gospel truth, it would be valid.
Similar threads
