Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[ewq1938]

I'll be happy to settle for one verse if that's possible.


Zechariah 9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

I took the liberty to post the verse and as I expected there is nothing in the verses that prove that there are ONLY TWO comings of Christ.

The verses show a coming of Jesus in the flesh and then when He returns and sets up His kingdom. Nothing in there about there are only two comings.


Matt 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I see no evidence that says He is only coming two times. In fact, it says He is coming when YOU think not.


Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How is it that you are unable to comprehend that Jesus comes at the 6TH seal as clearly marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars?


You need to inform all the uneducated that John Nelson Darby did not create the pre trib rapture as you have some evidence that it was created in the pre trib school.


And you know this how? Interesting that the wrath of God is about to happen with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. How is it that you don't understand these things?

Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The wrath of God begins at the time when the 1st trumpet is blown. I'm not sure why you keep producing evidence that disproves the point that you are trying to make.


You seem to ignore the facts of the scripture. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth, then the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath, Jesus returns for the judgement. You should be able to understand this much.

None of this is true. Jesus doesn't go to the Earth when he opens the 6th seal. No, he stays right there in heaven and opens the last seal. Jesus remains in heaven until the last trump, then he comes to the Earth.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's a trumpet that signals the second coming not the opening of a seal.

 

[The Light]

That applies to you. The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God,

Exactly. Please show me a post where I have said differently. You won't find one because I understand that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

This is why the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming at the 6th seal. Immediately after the tribulation the sun is darkened, the moon gives no light and stars fall from heaven. Then Jesus returns and the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

it's the wrath of satan and the church is warning about it in Revelation 12. The Great Tribulation is for the church to receive satan's wrath.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church is gone before the seals are opened so that is not the Church being talked about in Rev 12 where it mentions the seed of the woman. The SEED OF THE WOMAN are the 12 tribes of Israel. To determine if a person is a Jew(of the twelve tribes of Israel), it is the mother and not the father that determines whether a person is a Jew or not.

Those who are born of a Jewish mother are Jews. Those born of a Jewish father are NOT Jews. The seed of the woman are of the twelve tribes of Israel.
If you are looking for the Church in Rev 12, you might look here.
Rev 12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I'm not sure why you would think that the Great Tribulation about the Church. It is about the Jews. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Dan 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Davy]

I'll be happy to settle for one verse if that's possible.


Zechariah 9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

I took the liberty to post the verse and as I expected there is nothing in the verses that prove that there are ONLY TWO comings of Christ.

The verses show a coming of Jesus in the flesh and then when He returns and sets up His kingdom. Nothing in there about there are only two comings.


Matt 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I see no evidence that says He is only coming two times. In fact, it says He is coming when YOU think not.


Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How is it that you are unable to comprehend that Jesus comes at the 6TH seal as clearly marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars?


You need to inform all the uneducated that John Nelson Darby did not create the pre trib rapture as you have some evidence that it was created in the pre trib school.


And you know this how? Interesting that the wrath of God is about to happen with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. How is it that you don't understand these things?

Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The wrath of God begins at the time when the 1st trumpet is blown. I'm not sure why you keep producing evidence that disproves the point that you are trying to make.


You seem to ignore the facts of the scripture. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth, then the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath, Jesus returns for the judgement. You should be able to understand this much.

You're not interested in reading what I post, you just want to ARGUE, just like an ANARCHIST. So GO FISH. I'm done talking to rebellious individuals who come to Christian forums under false pretenses.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ,

It is obvious that many deceived brethren on men's false theory of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory cannot comprehend what Scripture in God's Word actually states.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is emphatic, by Lord Jesus Himself, that His future coming to gather His saints, is AFTER... the tribulation of those days.

There is NO ROOM for modification of that Scripture. Either one believes what Jesus said, or... they don't.

And what have we as Christians to do with those who REFUSE to believe what Jesus said there? Those are APOSTATES from Christ, and are rebellious against Him, because they DO NOT KEEP His Word, but instead keep man's word. Thus they are rebellious against God and His Word, and if they do not repent, they will be 'cut off'.

Not everyone that comes to a Christian Forum is actually a follower of Jesus Christ, even as they show by their denial of His Own Words.

 

[The Light]

None of this is true. Jesus doesn't go to the Earth when he opens the 6th seal.

I did not say He went to the earth. He sends His angels and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal second coming.

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No, he stays right there in heaven and opens the last seal. Jesus remains in heaven until the last trump, then he comes to the Earth.

No, you better do a little more research. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. He will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth just prior to the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here we see a view of this coming in Rev 14 where He remains in the clouds and sends His angels and then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus comes for the 12 tribes across the earth and also gathers the Church from heaven as where the body is the eagles are gathered. Then Jesus returns to heaven for the marriage supper as the wrath of God is upon the earth.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's a trumpet that signals the second coming not the opening of a seal.

You are posting these two verses as if they are talking about the same event. They are not. The coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 is second coming of Jesus that OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL, as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is when Jesus comes and remains in clouds as the gathering occurs before the day of the Lord. This occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast of God. The example given is the very day Lott left Sodom destruction came.

As for 1 thes 4, He does not send His angels, the Lord Himself comes. He is coming for His bride, the Church, BEFORE THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL, which is before the tribulation. This event occurs at the trump of God, which is the voice of God. The example given is it will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th WEEK of Daniel.

 

[Davy]

I did not say He went to the earth. He sends His angels and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal second coming.

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


No, you better do a little more research. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. He will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth just prior to the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here we see a view of this coming in Rev 14 where He remains in the clouds and sends His angels and then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus comes for the 12 tribes across the earth and also gathers the Church from heaven as where the body is the eagles are gathered. Then Jesus returns to heaven for the marriage supper as the wrath of God is upon the earth.

You are posting these two verses as if they are talking about the same event. They are not. The coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 is second coming of Jesus that OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL, as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is when Jesus comes and remains in clouds as the gathering occurs before the day of the Lord. This occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast of God. The example given is the very day Lott left Sodom destruction came.

As for 1 thes 4, He does not send His angels, the Lord Himself comes. He is coming for His bride, the Church, BEFORE THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL, which is before the tribulation. This event occurs at the trump of God, which is the voice of God. The example given is it will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th WEEK of Daniel.

Go argue somewhere else WITH YOUR FOLLOWING DOCTRINES OF MEN and not Christ's Word. This THREAD is about the topic of Pre-trib's False tribulation saints idea, NOT the actual time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

 

[The Light]

Brethren in Christ,

It is obvious that many deceived brethren on men's false theory of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory cannot comprehend what Scripture in God's Word actually states.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is emphatic, by Lord Jesus Himself, that His future coming to gather His saints, is AFTER... the tribulation of those days.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I liken it to the foolish virgins that will not be ready when He comes as He will come when you think not. Yeah He comes after tribulation, BUT BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. You think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are same event but it's obvious that the tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How is it that you can't see what is clearly written in scripture?

There is NO ROOM for modification of that Scripture. Either one believes what Jesus said, or... they don't.

What have I modified? The Lord says He is coming when you think not, and you completely ignore what He says. He says once that He will send His angels to gather the elect BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD.

He also says that HE WILL COME HIMSELF. The Lord Himself will come. That's two different comings right there. It seems many of you have trouble interpreting what is clearly written. Nothing needs to be modified, we just need to quit ignoring what is written. That's where ignorance comes from.

And what have we as Christians to do with those who REFUSE to believe what Jesus said there? Those are APOSTATES from Christ, and are rebellious against Him, because they DO NOT KEEP His Word, but instead keep man's word. Thus they are rebellious against God and His Word, and if they do not repent, they will be 'cut off'.

Not everyone that comes to a Christian Forum is actually a follower of Jesus Christ, even as they show by their denial of His Own Words.

You do yourself a great disservice by not understanding the Word. You seem like Paul, thinking you are doing the right thing as he did when He persecuted Christians. Then He got a visit from the truth and found out He was clueless.

 

[Davy]

Like I said brethren in Christ. It is VERY EASY to recognize the fakes that come here which DENY Christ's Own Words, and instead follow MEN'S LEAVEN DOCTRINES.

ANY... idea that goes AGAINST the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 timing that Lord Jesus Himself gave for His future coming to gather His saints is from the devil and his children, and those deceived by the devil.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Not only does Lord Jesus emphasize that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, but Apostle Paul showed this same gathering EVENT that Jesus showed in the above.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, a Chapter which the false Pre-trib Rapture theory crowd don't really heed, but love to pull out a single verse from, Apostle Paul showed there are TWO GROUPS gathered on the day of Christ's coming. The first group are the 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. And the second group is about those of His still alive on earth that He gathers at that same time, which said will be "caught up".

WHAT Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering is the SAME thing Jesus taught in the above Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures above. In the Matthew 24 version, it shows the saints being gathered 'from heaven', which is about the group of asleep saints ALREADY there when Jesus brings them with Him when He comes! And then the Mark 13 version says those saints are gathered 'from the earth', which is about the second group of saints on earth still alive, "caught up" to Jesus.

So Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 AGREES with Christ's Olivet discourse about the day of Christ's coming, and gathering by Christ of His elect saints.

 

[ewq1938]

I did not say He went to the earth. He sends His angels and remains in the clouds at the 6th seal second coming.

No, he doesn't do any of that when he opens that seal. He remains in heaven and so do his angels. The 7th trump is when he does all of that.

 

[The Light]

Like I said brethren in Christ. It is VERY EASY to recognize the fakes that come here which DENY Christ's Own Words, and instead follow MEN'S LEAVEN DOCTRINES.

Those foolish virgins can't seem to get a grip on the facts.
Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You have identified "A" coming of the Lord. In your blindness you can't seem to grasp that you better be ready, because He comes when YOU think not. How do you read past these FACTS?

ANY... idea that goes AGAINST the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 timing that Lord Jesus Himself gave for His future coming to gather His saints is from the devil and his children, and those deceived by the devil.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Not only does Lord Jesus emphasize that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, but Apostle Paul showed this same gathering EVENT that Jesus showed in the above.

How is it that you CANNOT comprehend that I am saying that He is coming IMMEDIATLEY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. How is it that you are not able to comprehend that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God BEGINS. I have posted the verses several times and yet you can't grasp the FACTS.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, a Chapter which the false Pre-trib Rapture theory crowd don't really heed, but love to pull out a single verse from, Apostle Paul showed there are TWO GROUPS gathered on the day of Christ's coming. The first group are the 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. And the second group is about those of His still alive on earth that He gathers at that same time, which said will be "caught up".

Why are mixing the coming of Jesus in 1 THES 4 WHEN THE LORD HIMSELF COMES with the coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 when HE SENDS HIS ANGELS to gather the elect. Are you unable to understand that there is a difference from the LORD HIMSELF coming and THE LORD SENDING HIS ANGELS?

WHAT Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering is the SAME thing Jesus taught in the above Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures above. In the Matthew 24 version, it shows the saints being gathered 'from heaven', which is about the group of asleep saints ALREADY there when Jesus brings them with Him when He comes! And then the Mark 13 version says those saints are gathered 'from the earth', which is about the second group of saints on earth still alive, "caught up" to Jesus.

No. The Lord Himself comes for His bride the Church when it is like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. That is completely different from the coming of Jesus at the Last Trump when He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.

So Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 AGREES with Christ's Olivet discourse about the day of Christ's coming, and gathering by Christ of His elect saints.

Only in your mind. If you are not able to understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels, I'm not sure there is any hope that you will ever have a clue about endtimes.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[The Light]

No, he doesn't do any of that when he opens that seal. He remains in heaven and so do his angels. The 7th trump is when he does all of that.

Why are you UNABLE to UNDERSTAND that Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. AND THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS??????
It is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun moon and stars.

If you want to understand Revelation, we don't need to make anything up. All we have to do is READ WHAT IT SAYS. Jesus returns at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation, and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth just before the wrath of God.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath of God is the 7 trumpets.

 

[The Light]

Go argue somewhere else WITH YOUR FOLLOWING DOCTRINES OF MEN and not Christ's Word. This THREAD is about the topic of Pre-trib's False tribulation saints idea, NOT the actual time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

I am not arguing with you. There is no need to argue. I am merely stating the FACTS of scripture which you are unable to address as the facts speak for themselves.

The Lord says that He is coming when you think not. Fact.
The Lord says He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Paul says the Lord Himself will descend from heaven. These have to be two separate comings. FACT.
The Lord comes at the 6th seal, immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION, for the gathering, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Fact.

I don't need to argue. Those are the facts. Facts you are unable to argue with.

 

[ewq1938]

The Lord comes at the 6th seal, immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION, for the gathering, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Fact.

All the seals are opened before the Great Tribulation begins. The seals are just visions of the future, not events that happen when they are opened. Christ returns at the 7th trump, that is when the wrath of God begins, Revelation 11.

 

[The Light]

All the seals are opened before the Great Tribulation begins.

Not true. Must I keep posting that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, we have the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars that prove without doubt that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth and THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

The seals are just visions of the future, not events that happen when they are opened.

Who teaches this stuff? This is the second time I've heard this on this board. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel, when God turns His attention to the people of Daniel, His Chosen. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened.

Christ returns at the 7th trump, that is when the wrath of God begins, Revelation 11.

No. Christ returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Here is Christ coming and remaining in the clouds at the 6th seal. AND THEN the wrath of God BEGINS at the sounding of the 1st trumpet. Those trumpets are the wrath of God. Do you not see that?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

Not true. Must I keep posting that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, we have the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars that prove without doubt that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth and THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

The 6th seal tells us about the 7th trump return.

Who teaches this stuff? This is the second time I've heard this on this board.

God showed it to me decades ago. It's advanced understanding. I have met a few that understand it this way.

No. Christ returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Wrong. He stays in heaven and opens the 7th seal. That alone should tell you the second coming did not happen when he opened the 6th seal. It's just prophecy just like when he was on the mount and spoke of his second coming. Just because it's described does not mean it's happening right then and there.

 

[The Light]

There is NO Scripture written about anyone converting to Christ Jesus DURING the time of "great tribulation". God's Word shows when the trib starts, the division between those who believe and those who do not (and are thus deceived), will remain... until Jesus comes and reveals the "man of sin" and destroys him. The idea that deceived Jews turn to Jesus DURING the GT is a doctrine created by the Pre-trib Rapture school.

Are you ignorant to these scriptures?

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Also, you are confusing the tribulation to the wrath of God.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. Do you not understand these things? It's no mystery, just read what the Word says.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You need to understand the basics before you attack the truth.

 

[The Light]

The 6th seal tells us about the 7th trump return.

Why would He need to open a seal to tell you about the 7th trump return? Do you not understand that you can OVERLAY the 6th chapter of Revelation with Matthew 24. Those are all actionable events starting with the 4 horseman of the Apocalypse being the beginning of sorrows.

The seals are unopened and are the 70th week of Daniel.

God showed it to me decades ago. It's advanced understanding. I have met a few that understand it this way.

I don't believe it to be correct. I think it would be better to just read what it says and go with that.

Wrong. He stays in heaven and opens the 7th seal. That alone should tell you the second coming did not happen when he opened the 6th seal.

Why would that tell me He would remain in heaven to open the 7th seal. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 and the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 are the same event. We can tell that by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is the second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The Lord will remain in the clouds during the gathering from heaven and earth. Then Jesus and everyone will return to heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[Davy]

Don't be deceived by those on the FALSE pre-tribulational rapture doctrine. They do not heed the written Word of God, but only make up doctrines to fit their theories, and pull out of God's Word ONLY 'fragments' they think they need to use to back their theories up. The deceived who listen to them aren't any better off, because they do not actually heed what is written in God's Word either, as they are taught to abuse God's Word the same way those pre-trib rapture doctors do.

NO SCRIPTURE ABOUT THE DECEIVED WHO TURN TO JESUS 'DURING' THE GREAT TRIB:

There is only an ASSUMPTION by men's doctrines that some of the orthodox Jews turn to Jesus AFTER the "great tribulation" has started. That is a false doctrine that the Pre-trib Rapture school created simply because there are SO MANY SCRIPTURES ABOUT CHRIST'S CHURCH GOING THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Thus the false Pre-trib school was forced to make something up to explain WHY there is written Scripture about saints going through the great trib. Christ's Church isn't gathered until AFTER... the great tribulation LIKE LORD JESUS SAID, and that is WHY there is Scripture showing saints going through the great trib.

Furthermore... the Scriptures of Zechariah 12, Revelation 1:7, Luke 23:27-31, Revelation 6:16, and Revelation 16:15 all reveal those in 'shame' on the day of Christ's return. Per those Scripture examples, those found in shame by Jesus will be made up of the orthodox unbelieving Jews and ANY of the deceived. The Jews in particular will wish for the mountains to fall on them, and for the hills to... "Cover us" (Luke 23).

The Romans 11 Scripture where Apostle Paul also showed the blindness away from The Gospel that God put upon the majority of orthodox Jews will NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES comes in. That fullness won't happen until the great trib starts, and then it will be too late once the trib begins. WHY? Because the coming pseudo-Christ will REPLACE whatever worship the deceived not in Christ are used to...

2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

"... exalteth himself above all that is called God" -- this means whatever one's religion calls God, the coming pseudo-Christ-false-Messiah will claim to be Him.

"... all that is called God, or that is worshipped" -- this includes that false Messiah claiming to be ANY god that any religion worships.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes!! After the rapture millions will see their great error and choose to become believers.

Except, of course, that NOBODY comes to Christ except they be DRAWN by Father to Him.

 

[Davy]

Except, of course, that NOBODY comes to Christ except they be DRAWN by Father to Him.

The erroneous idea that the deceived and wicked will convert to Jesus once they 'see' Christ's Church raptured is NOT written, but is an assumption ONLY, especially if one believes in the FALSE pre-trib rapture theory that claims Christ's Church will be raptured PRIOR to the great tribulation! Pre-tribbers just keep piling their deceptions on the dung heap.