Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[Dave Watchman]

Thirdly we are not sure how Caiaphas will be judged. Could he be forgiven, and therefore not judged after the 1000 years, but before.

That's a good idea.

I thought of that too.

Additionally, the second coming OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

I agree. But I can't see how He's going to stay here for a thousand years. It's not possible.

God the Father is coming too right?

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! - Revelation 6:16​

This is another Visitation of God.

This time He returns, before the thousand years, to take us to be where He is.

If it were not so would He have told us?

"And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.​

I am not aware that Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the 1000 years. I believe He returns to earth at Armageddon and then sets up His kingdom on earth and remains to rule and reign with a rod of iron for 1000 years.

He returns to the stratosphere of earth at Armageddon, we will meet him in the air, but "Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore all things. And that won't happen until the thousand years are finished in Revelation 22.

Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him.

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. - Revelation 1:7​

Think man. "Every eye" will not be open at the second coming. The only time "every eye" will be open again, ESPECIALLY those who pierced Him, will be at the great white throne judgment day after the thousand years are finished.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Timtofly]

He returns to the stratosphere of earth at Armageddon, we will meet him in the air, but "Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore all things. And that won't happen until the thousand years are finished in Revelation 22.

Jesus returned in the first century. He has been waiting for the Second Coming to restore all things. After restoring all things, Jesus reigns on earth for 1,000 years as proof of that restoration.

The Day of the Lord starts with judgment of all the wicked works of man. The Day of the Lord ends 1,000 years later and the kingdom is given back to God, perfect without fault.

Think man. "Every eye" will not be open at the second coming. The only time "every eye" will be open again, ESPECIALLY those who pierced Him, will be at the great white throne judgment day after the thousand years are finished.

Jesus pointed out that those in sheol certainly had awareness of what is going on. Why do you think they cannot see Jesus if that is what God declared? You are waiting for a resurrection. Awareness in sheol is not based on a resurrection, it just is. Every eye is currently open and aware now, even in sheol.

Certainly that will not change even in the LOF. They will continually see who they pierced. Certainly not in just a single moment of time. The return is not just centered around those "seeing". It is about the Day of the Lord, and the end of Adam's 6 days of sin and death.

 

[Davy]

Yes what you said is out of context.

No.

Your own remark, and you own calling your remark silly, with emphasis ...

For the elementary minded.
Much (which does not mean all) of what shall come to pass (which mean has not occurred, also called Prophecy) is revealed (which means is told) is in the OT (which means Old Testament.)

The OT is a valuable source that reveals much Prophecy that shall come to pass.

The NT is a valuable source that reveals much Prophecy IN THE OT that HAS come to pass.

Nothing new, still trying to rewrite what others say, then accuse others for what you say.

If you do not understand what an other is saying.....ASK.
You writing FOR others, is deceptive.

Once again, a FALSEHOOD pushed by Taken.

The Old Testament does NOT reveal all Bible prophecies. It still contains many prophecies yet unfufilled today, but not all Bible prophecy originates in The Old Testament first.

Christ's Book of Revelation AND His Olivet discourse in The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, contain NEW revealings about the very END of this world, detail that The Old Testament did NOT cover.

 

[Davy]

Yes you are correct. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture, but that does not change the answer to the question.

A pre-tribulation rapture is CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD, but loved... by the deceived.

 

[Taken]

Once again, a FALSEHOOD pushed by Taken.

Per usual, a claim with no substance, and deflection...from Salvation, to Paradise, to Prophecies....

The Old Testament does NOT reveal all Bible prophecies.

So? Never said the OT contained ALL prophecies.

 

[The Light]

A pre-tribulation rapture is CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD, but loved... by the deceived.

Please post any verse that says a pretribulation rapture is contrary to the Word of God. There isn't one.

Is this one of those NON ACTIONABLE verses I keep hearing about. You know, the verses that you are unable to understand, so you skip over them and pretend they aren't in the Bible. I plan on believing God and praying that I may be worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are free to choose a different path and go through all these things that will come to pass, if it so pleases you.

 

[Davy]

Please post any verse that says a pretribulation rapture is contrary to the Word of God. There isn't one.

EASY! I'll post 2 Scriptures as PROOF against the false pre-trib rapture theory...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

One Scripture example above is about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes. And the other Scripture example is about His elect still alive on earth being "caught up" to Him when He comes. BOTH examples agree with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

So what those on the false pre-trib rapture theory do is DENY these Scriptures DIRECTLY BY JESUS HIMSELF that His coming and gathering of His Church is AFTER THE TRIBULATION. And not only that, but they also DENY Paul's teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4 WHILE they FALSELY CLAIM to teach it!!!

The pre-trib rapture school is nothing but charlatans against The Word of God.

 

[The Light]

EASY! I'll post 2 Scriptures as PROOF against the false pre-trib rapture theory...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

These verses should tell you that THE TRIBUALTION IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL. So the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins, proving that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

These verses show that HE WILL SEND HIS ANGELS. When the Lord comes for His Church, THE LORD HIMSELF WILL COME
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again you have no clue. You babble without understanding.

One Scripture example above is about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes. And the other Scripture example is about His elect still alive on earth being "caught up" to Him when He comes. BOTH examples agree with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

How is it that you are constantly warned about being ignorant and you continually fail to heed the warning. It appears you have no clue what is being talked about?

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. Then when the Lord Himself comes for the living Church, those are the dead that He brings with Him

So what those on the false pre-trib rapture theory do is DENY these Scriptures DIRECTLY BY JESUS HIMSELF that His coming and gathering of His Church is AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

I just proved above, USING THE COSMIC SIGNS, of the sun, moon and stars that the gathering occurs at the 6th SEAL. So your ranting is in ignorance.

And not only that, but they also DENY Paul's teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4 WHILE they FALSELY CLAIM to teach it!!!

The gathering occurs BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD, before the wrath of God. So all your false this and false that is left wanting, as it seems you are continually clueless about what is being talked about in scripture.
2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The pre-trib rapture school is nothing but charlatans against The Word of God.

You don't seem to understand the difference between the LORD HIMSELF coming for His Church before the tribulation and the LORD SENDING HIS ANGELS to gather the elect from heaven and earth before the wrath of God.

It would be wise if you would study to show yourself approved before you rant on things that you do not understand...brother.

 

[Davy]

....

These verses should tell you that THE TRIBUALTION IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL. So the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins, proving that you have no clue what you are talking about.

The 6th Seal of Revelation 6 reveals the time of Christ's COMING AND HIS WRATH poured out upon the wicked on earth. That also is 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing, and also 7th Vial timing. It is also "day of the Lord" timing, NOT TRIBULATION TIMING. No brainer about that.

But why... did you skip to the topic of the 6th Seal? Why didn't you interpret those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures you posted for us? Why leave the clear evidence that Jesus Himself gave about His coming to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION?

 

[Davy]

....
These verses show that HE WILL SEND HIS ANGELS. When the Lord comes for His Church, THE LORD HIMSELF WILL COME
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again you have no clue. You babble without understanding.

I'm babbling, and YOU can't even STAY ON THE SCRIPTURE TOPIC OF Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27?

You are a FAKE.

You're only trying to create... falsehoods against me to TRY and affect my credibility in God's Word.

I HOPE that some who listen to your FALSE TEACHING come here to find out that you are such a FAKE and NOT staying true to God's Word as written!

 

[The Light]

The 6th Seal of Revelation 6 reveals the time of Christ's COMING AND HIS WRATH poured out upon the wicked on earth. That also is 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing, and also 7th Vial timing. It is also "day of the Lord" timing, NOT TRIBULATION TIMING. No brainer about that.

But why... did you skip to the topic of the 6th Seal? Why didn't you interpret those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures you posted for us? Why leave the clear evidence that Jesus Himself gave about His coming to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION?

Dude. Wake up. Jesus returns AFTER THE TRIBULATION which occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to His Chosen. Which is why it is called the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE.

As for Matthew 24 and Mark 13 I kept it as simple as I possibly could so you might grasp what is happening. But alas, it's futile as you have already decided despite the scripture. In summary, Jesus returns AT THE 6TH SEAL. He returns to SEND HIS ANGELS to gather the elect FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH before the wrath of God. THIS IS NOT THE SAME COMING WHEN HE RETURNS WITH THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN AT THE END OF THE TRUMPETS. Completely different coming JUST AS IT SAYS.

 

[The Light]

I'm babbling, and YOU can't even STAY ON THE SCRIPTURE TOPIC OF Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27?

You are a FAKE.

You're only trying to create... falsehoods against me to TRY and affect my credibility in God's Word.

I HOPE that some who listen to your FALSE TEACHING come here to find out that you are such a FAKE and NOT staying true to God's Word as written!

I stayed on topic. However, you are unaware that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 and Mark 13 occur at the 6th seal as MARKED BY THE COSMIC SIGNS of the sun, moon and stars. You think this is the coming of Jesus when he returns with His armies. No, this is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. The wrath of God cannot even begin until the 7th seal is opened.

I am not creating false hoods against you, I am posting scripture that proves that you have no clue what you are talking about. And both places where you have no clue, Paul warns you, NOT TO BE IGNORANT. And you disregard this warning and reject what is written.

 

[Davy]

Dude. Wake up. Jesus returns AFTER THE TRIBULATION which occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to His Chosen. Which is why it is called the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE.

As for Matthew 24 and Mark 13 I kept it as simple as I possibly could so you might grasp what is happening. But alas, it's futile as you have already decided despite the scripture. In summary, Jesus returns AT THE 6TH SEAL. He returns to SEND HIS ANGELS to gather the elect FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH before the wrath of God. THIS IS NOT THE SAME COMING WHEN HE RETURNS WITH THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN AT THE END OF THE TRUMPETS. Completely different coming JUST AS IT SAYS.

Decided what... per the Scriptures? That Jesus will return to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION like He said?

And NO, the day He comes to gather His saints IS... the "day of the Lord" when God's Wrath upon the earth HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME.

What you're trying to do, 'dude'... is follow a doctrine of man that falsely tries to ADD a gap of time between the day of Jesus' coming and the day of His wrath upon the earth.

 

[Davy]

I stayed on topic. However, you are unaware that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 and Mark 13 occur at the 6th seal as MARKED BY THE COSMIC SIGNS of the sun, moon and stars. You think this is the coming of Jesus when he returns with His armies. No, this is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. The wrath of God cannot even begin until the 7th seal is opened.

I am not creating false hoods against you, I am posting scripture that proves that you have no clue what you are talking about. And both places where you have no clue, Paul warns you, NOT TO BE IGNORANT. And you disregard this warning and reject what is written.

I don't think, I KNOW Jesus comes on the last Seal, last Trumpet, and last Vial, the 777. (The 7th Seal actually represents a 'selah' pause, to show completeness).

The devil comes on 666, the first part of the 6th Seal (untimely figs), and on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and on the 6th Vial.

So no, you have NOT stayed on topic with Christ's Olivet discourse, because you are creating a DIFFERENT timeline away from the actual Scripture evidence.

But maybe you need help in reading the events of the 6th Seal...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

That above is not about Jesus being revealed from Heaven yet. It is about 'stars' falling to earth like "untimely figs". That is about the coming of the 'dragon' and his host of angels to the earth for the tribulation time.

The idea of an 'untimely fig' is about the winter fig that grows in the winter but falls off in the spring. It's represent false figs, and a false gathering to the wrong Messiah (i.e, the "another beast" of Rev.13).

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

NOW that above... is about the "day of the Lord" timing. It is even linked with the end events of Isaiah 34 about that day, AND 2 Peter 3:10 about the LAST DAY of this present world when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Those men then SEE Christ ("the Lamb"), AND... The Father (sitting on His Throne in Heaven). Jesus is now sitting on the RIGHT HAND of The Father's Throne, remember?

How are those men able to SEE The Father in Heaven sitting upon His Throne? It is pointing the 'change' to the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. Even the wicked and deceived still alive on earth on that day will be 'changed'. Paul said all... will be changed, not just those of Christ's Church. So this parallels even the Revelation 1:7 verse when those who pierced Jesus will SEE Him coming in the clouds. And per the Luke 23:27-31 Scripture, it's the deceived Jews who will say on that day ...

Luke 23:30
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'
KJV

Thus your not understanding that day of Christ's coming with those 6th Seal Revelation 6:14-17 verses has you creating a false timing with the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

And per Revelation 16:15, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which aligns with what both Peter and Paul taught that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

 

[The Light]

Decided what... per the Scriptures? That Jesus will return to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION like He said?

And NO, the day He comes to gather His saints IS... the "day of the Lord" when God's Wrath upon the earth HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME.

What you're trying to do, 'dude'... is follow a doctrine of man that falsely tries to ADD a gap of time between the day of Jesus' coming and the day of His wrath upon the earth.

What are you talking about? There is no gap. Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation, just like it says. This happens at the 6th seal, just like it says. This is the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the wrath of God, JUST LIKE 2 THES 2 says. I can't figure out why you can't grasp this. Just read what it says.

 

[The Light]

I don't think, I KNOW Jesus comes on the last Seal, last Trumpet, and last Vial, the 777. (The 7th Seal actually represents a 'selah' pause, to show completeness).

The devil comes on 666, the first part of the 6th Seal (untimely figs), and on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and on the 6th Vial.

So no, you have NOT stayed on topic with Christ's Olivet discourse, because you are creating a DIFFERENT timeline away from the actual Scripture evidence.

But maybe you need help in reading the events of the 6th Seal...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

That above is not about Jesus being revealed from Heaven yet. It is about 'stars' falling to earth like "untimely figs". That is about the coming of the 'dragon' and his host of angels to the earth for the tribulation time.

Just put 2 and 2 together. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation, when the sun and moon are in darkness and the stars fall from heaven.

Therefore when the sun and moon go dark and the stars fall from heaven in Rev 6 YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT JESUS HAS RETURNED AT THE 6TH SEAL...BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. How can you not understand these things. Just read what it says.

 

[Davy]

This is the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the wrath of God, JUST LIKE 2 THES 2 says.

And there it is, what you said there in bold.

Where does it say that Jesus gathers His Church PRIOR to the "wrath of God"?

That time gap is what your organizational doctrines of men have wrongly taught you. Allow me to explain.

1. In Revelation 16:15, Jesus said He comes "as a thief". The very next event there is the battle of Armageddon which is actually the timing of the 7th Vial being poured out. And WHAT is that 7th Vial poured out include? GOD's cup of wrath upon the wicked.

2. in 2 Peter 3:10-13, Peter shows the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", which is the SAME "as a thief" metaphor Lord Jesus used for the day of His coming! And Peter showed there that is the day when God's consuming fire will BURN MAN'S WORKS OFF THIS EARTH.

3. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul also showed that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". And in that Paul shows that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about the destruction from God on that future "day of the Lord". Paul used the idea of it being "sudden" because that's how God showed it in His OT prophets, that it would come 'at an instant, suddenly'.

4. Thus Lord Jesus' teaching that the day of His coming will surprise many "as a thief", is about that final day of this present world, this world ending by that event of God's wrath being poured out DURING Christ's coming in the clouds on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. This is why Revelation 16 shows that 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR, and not upon the earth. That represents the CHANGE of everybody... on earth, to the spirit body! at the twinkling of an eye! Everyone will be changed, the wicked included. No one will be in flesh bodies still for Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

So those events on the "day of the Lord", the FINAL DAY of this present world, will occur very quickly at the SAME time. Those in Christ DO NOT HAVE TO BE RAPTURED TO HEAVEN to escape God's Wrath for the wicked. Didn't you ever read Daniel 4 about how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times... hotter than necessary, and Neb saw Jesus in there with them, and they came out without their clothes even smelling of smoke? Those in Christ have no need to worry about God's consuming fire on that day! It will not harm us!

So in reality, God's consuming fire is going to 'change' everyone still alive on earth to the spiritual body, and by that... is HOW even those who pierced Him will see Him coming in the clouds. And then... His angels are sent to gather us from the earth.

 

[The Light]

He returns to the stratosphere of earth at Armageddon, we will meet him in the air, but "Heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore all things. And that won't happen until the thousand years are finished in Revelation 22.

Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him.

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. - Revelation 1:7​

Think man. "Every eye" will not be open at the second coming. The only time "every eye" will be open again, ESPECIALLY those who pierced Him, will be at the great white throne judgment day after the thousand years are finished.

Peaceful Sabbath.

I think your point is well made, and certainly could be the case. However, I wonder.....

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Could there be a difference in judgement time for those that rejected Christ and for those that never had a chance to reject Christ as in they died before the time of Chirst?