Tribulation saints

[Davy]

I understand tribulation saints to be those who come to know Christ in the Tribulation before the Great tribulation, when the Rapture comes midway.

That's just a theory, not a Bible doctrine.

Revelation reveals that only those 'sealed' with God's seal in the forehead will not be subject to the locust's stinging of five months (Rev.9). Revelation 7 tells us how many of Israel will be sealed in prep for the tribulation. It is fixed, 144,000 out of the tribes of Israel.

 

[Davy]

Davy,

You say I'm wrong but Shofar Ministries, Who are the tribulation saints? provides a biblical basis for post-tribulation rapture and the 'tribulation saints' as those who remained as Christians before and through the Great Tribulation period.

The late Professor George Eldon Ladd, an evangelical, wrote:

There is one very sobering question which weighs heavily upon the writer’s heart, and he would ask his readers to share it. Many of God’s people are being assured today that the Rapture will take place before the Tribulation and that the Church will not experience those terrible days. Those who hold a different view and believe that the Church will suffer in the Tribulation from Antichrist have not been vocal. The author knows of a good number of outstanding Christian leaders who hold this expectation, but they do not wish to be quoted and they have not publicly expressed themselves.

However, can we afford to be silent on this question? In light of the fact that the Word of God nowhere expressly asserts a pretribulational rapture, and since there is no plain affirmation that the Church will be taken out of the world before Antichrist appears, let us suppose that we are in fact in the very last days, and within a matter of months or a few years at most, God moves upon the events of world history so that suddenly a new Caesar or Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin appears who is unquestionably the Antichrist. Suppose that such as person, the incarnation of satanic power, actually gains domination of the entire world as neither Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin were able to do. Suppose that he uses this power to demand a worship of himself and his state upon penalty of death, suppose that martyrs begin to fall by the hundreds of thousands, not only of Jews but particularly of Christians who will not worship the Beast or receive his mark. Suppose that suddenly the people of God find themselves engulfed in a horrible persecution at the hands of the Antichrist when they had been assured repeatedly on the authority of the Word of God that this experience would never befall them. What will be the result? We leave it to the reader’s imagination. Certainly we dare not propagate a teaching of safety about which the Word of God is not indisputably clear, nor should we accept the responsibility of filling the hearts of God’s people with what may be a false hope and thus leave them utterly unprepared for terrible days of persecution when and if they fall. If there is the possibility that the Church is to suffer tribulation at the hands of Antichrist, do not those who believe it have a God-given responsibility to do what they can to prepare the Church for what may be ahead, even though it is a very unwelcome message? Our responsibility is to God, not to man (George Eldon Ladd 1956. The Blessed Hope. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, pp 159-160).

See this thread on another forum that challenges whether you or I is wrong: "Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment.​

It's common sense that if the rapture doesn't take place until after the Great Tribulation (the post-trib view), then all believers on earth during this period are the tribulation saints/believers.l

I'm not proposing an erroneous or outlandish view.

Oz

I believe in a post-tribulation gathering of the Church to Christ Jesus on the last day of this world, which is what God's Word reveals. And that is what I have revealed from Scripture many times on this forum.

But the phrase "tribulation saints" is a term created and used by those on a pre-tribulational rapture theory, which theory is NOT... a Bible doctrine, nor is it declared or revealed anywhere in God's Word, which is what that professor you quoted was also saying. The quote you used does not propose a phrase like "tribulation saints". Apparently you have not understood how those on a pre-trib rapture theory use it.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe in a post-tribulation gathering of the Church to Christ Jesus on the last day of this world, which is what God's Word reveals. And that is what I have revealed from Scripture many times on this forum.

But the phrase "tribulation saints" is a term created and used by those on a pre-tribulational rapture theory, which theory is NOT... a Bible doctrine, nor is it declared or revealed anywhere in God's Word, which is what that professor you quoted was also saying. The quote you used does not propose a phrase like "tribulation saints". Apparently you have not understood how those on a pre-trib rapture theory use it.

Davy,

It's not unusual to use an English word to explain something not stated in that way in the Bible. Trinity is one such word. The word, Bible, is nowhere in Scripture.

Pre-tribers support tribulation saints as those born again during the Great Tribulation, after the church has been raptured. I thought believers were part of the body of Christ. How can new born people be part of the body of Christ when the church already has been raptured? She has left the earth.

However, a post-tribulation view supports tribulation saints as referring to all those in the church going through the Great Tribulation. See books such as: The Case For Tribulation Saints: and the Post-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

R Totten made this assessment:

Unavoidably, since there are saved people on earth during the tribulation, the body of Christ, the Church, must be present on earth at that time. Obviously, those who "die in the Lord" during the tribulation will be part of Christ's body, the Church, and they too (like all who are in Christ) will rise at the first resurrection and be raptured (1 Thess.4:16-18). Thus, the rapture must follow the tribulation, during which those tribulation saints "die IN the Lord".... Although tribulation saints will experience very tough times , persecution and death from Antichrist during the tribulation, they will abide under the sufficient grace of God, and never his wrath, setting their hope on their soon-coming Lord Jesus.

In support of a post-tribulation rapture, I recommend:

1. George Eldon Ladd 1956. The Blessed Hope (Eerdmans).
   
2. Robert F Gundry 1973. The Church and the Tribulation (Zondervan).
3. Robert F Gundry 1997. First the Antichrist (Baker Books).

Oz

 

[Earburner]

true, A dead saint G3144 μάρτυς martus (mar'-tïs) which “was” a witness during trouble times. Was an alive Saint G40 ἅγιος hagios (ha'-ǰiy-os), "SAINT" that “is” a witness that is alive for the Lord Jesus the Christ.
Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ”.

2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Corinthians 4:8 "[We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Corinthians 4:9 "Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Trouble: G2346 θλίβω thlibo (thliy'-ɓō) v.
1. to compress.
2. to squeeze.
3. to press hard.
4. (passively) to be hard pressed.
5. to pinch.
6. (figuratively) to press in against, to crush (in a crowd).
{literally or figuratively}
[akin to the base of G5147]
KJV: afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble
See also: G5147

tribulationis just another word for trouble.

ALIVE SAINTS
Acts 9:32 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Paul then Saul, locked Christian/Saints
Acts 26:10 "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].


DEAD SAINTS
Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us”. read Gill’s commentary on this.

PICJAG.

We understand the meaning

Those who repent and turn to Jesus during the antichrist reign; this is Jew and Gentile alike.

Evidently couldn't digest what 101G wrote!
Ever since Pentecost, the saints have endured
" great tribulation".
Rev. 7[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
> Question: Were there saints that washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, from 33AD to 1000AD?
How about from 1000AD to 2019AD?
Would there be any saints then, who did the same?
.
> for the sake of argument, let's take that verse and reverse it:
KJV- Rev. 7[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, [These are they which have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, and came out of great tribulation.]
> Were there any saints that "came out of great tribulation" from 33AD to 1000AD?
How about from 1000AD to 2019AD?
Would there be any saints then, who did the same?
.
My point is, how is it that you ignore the word "and"??
Do you not see that both situations "of great tribulation" and "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb", are in conjunction with each other, IN ALL generations?
.
Why is it, that you only see the issue about "great tribulation" for CERTAIN saints, in a specific generation, but then ignore that ALL saints, in all generations have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?
.
Don't you see that Rev. 7:14 is descriptive of ALL saints, from 33AD to present day, no matter how one reads it?

 

[Earburner]

Correction: Evidently you couldn't digest what 101G wrote!

 

[Davy]

Davy,

It's not unusual to use an English word to explain something not stated in that way in the Bible. Trinity is one such word. The word, Bible, is nowhere in Scripture.

I don't know what kind of supposition you're trying to support with that idea, but it doesn't work. A Bible student today, especially one that only speaks English, has many Bible study tools available today to go back into the Bible manuscripts and discover at a deeper level if they so desire. Then of course, there is the option to study the Bible languages and the various manuscripts available. And once that is done, the Bible student is able to make clearer the meaning even in their own language, which is how God's Word has been translated into many languages of the world.

Yet there is still another level to understanding God's Word. It's through the expressions, analogies, allegories, parables, and metaphors that are used. One can do a direct translation of languages, but if the concept of analogy or allegory isn't understood, no words in any language is going to help them understand it. This is also a problem among many English speaking peoples; they simply don't understand the 'idea' of analogy and parable, even though they themselves may use many English expressions. I see many brethren when coming to The Bible, expression and parable Messages confuses them, when God gave those things actually to make His Word easier to understand.

Pre-tribers support tribulation saints as those born again during the Great Tribulation, after the church has been raptured. I thought believers were part of the body of Christ. How can new born people be part of the body of Christ when the church already has been raptured? She has left the earth.

I well understand where the idea originates, i.e., from Darby's teaching of a secret rapture theory, which he got from the Edward Irving church in 1830's Great Britain.

Thing is, God's Word does not teach a pre-trib rapture at all.

 

[Davy]

Those who are 'sealed' of Israel are sealed prior... to the start of the tribulation. This is another way of knowing the 'tribulation saints' idea is a fabrication from the doctrines of men. They say the trib saints come to Jesus during... the tribulation. But God's Word shows those not sealed with God's seal will be deceived and stung by the locusts.

Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV


This is why it is so important to understand what is getting ready to happen in our near future when the time of great tribulation starts. Only those in Christ Jesus that are 'sealed' with God's seal prior to the trib cannot be stung by that locust army. That is not by any fly away escape either. It is about God's sealing by The Holy Spirit so that no man can deceive us, specifically against the coming Antichrist who will claim to be Messiah in Jerusalem.

 

[farouk]

Davy,

It's not unusual to use an English word to explain something not stated in that way in the Bible. Trinity is one such word. The word, Bible, is nowhere in Scripture.

Pre-tribers support tribulation saints as those born again during the Great Tribulation, after the church has been raptured. I thought believers were part of the body of Christ. How can new born people be part of the body of Christ when the church already has been raptured? She has left the earth.

However, a post-tribulation view supports tribulation saints as referring to all those in the church going through the Great Tribulation. See books such as: The Case For Tribulation Saints: and the Post-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

R Totten made this assessment:



In support of a post-tribulation rapture, I recommend:

1. George Eldon Ladd 1956. The Blessed Hope (Eerdmans).
   
2. Robert F Gundry 1973. The Church and the Tribulation (Zondervan).
3. Robert F Gundry 1997. First the Antichrist (Baker Books).

Oz

The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but what it refers to certainly is.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know what kind of supposition you're trying to support with that idea, but it doesn't work. A Bible student today, especially one that only speaks English, has many Bible study tools available today to go back into the Bible manuscripts and discover at a deeper level if they so desire. Then of course, there is the option to study the Bible languages and the various manuscripts available. And once that is done, the Bible student is able to make clearer the meaning even in their own language, which is how God's Word has been translated into many languages of the world.

Yet there is still another level to understanding God's Word. It's through the expressions, analogies, allegories, parables, and metaphors that are used. One can do a direct translation of languages, but if the concept of analogy or allegory isn't understood, no words in any language is going to help them understand it. This is also a problem among many English speaking peoples; they simply don't understand the 'idea' of analogy and parable, even though they themselves may use many English expressions. I see many brethren when coming to The Bible, expression and parable Messages confuses them, when God gave those things actually to make His Word easier to understand.

I well understand where the idea originates, i.e., from Darby's teaching of a secret rapture theory, which he got from the Edward Irving church in 1830's Great Britain.

Thing is, God's Word does not teach a pre-trib rapture at all.

Davy,

I have a PhD in New Testament from an accredited university and I have taught NT Greek at college level (now retired). I didn't come down in the last shower of exegesis.

I suggest you do some further study on the rapture of the church as the view goes way back further than J N Darby and Edward Irving. Try Cyprian in 3rd century and Ephraim in 4th century. See my article, The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but what it refers to certainly is.

That's what I tried to convey to Davy but I failed to communicate that clearly enough. The word, 'Bible', is not in the Bible but the concept of the canonicity of these books as the Bible is.

 

[farouk]

Davy,

I have a PhD in New Testament from an accredited university and I have taught NT Greek at college level (now retired). I didn't come down in the last shower of exegesis.

I suggest you do some further study on the rapture of the church as the view goes way back further than J N Darby and Edward Irving. Try Cyprian in 3rd century and Ephraim in 4th century. See my article, The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

A literal understanding of certain passages clearly relating to the church - as opposed to Israel - leads to a lot of ppl concluding that there is to be a Rapture.

 

[farouk]

That's what I tried to convey to Davy but I failed to communicate that clearly enough. The word, 'Bible', is not in the Bible but the concept of the canonicity of these books as the Bible is.

Yes, this is indeed self-evident.

 

[Davy]

Davy,

I have a PhD in New Testament from an accredited university and I have taught NT Greek at college level (now retired). I didn't come down in the last shower of exegesis.

I suggest you do some further study on the rapture of the church as the view goes way back further than J N Darby and Edward Irving. Try Cyprian in 3rd century and Ephraim in 4th century. See my article, The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

Well, I consider E.W. Bullinger of the 1880's having been an excellent Bible scholar, yet even he succumbed to the false 1830's pre-trib rapture theory, even though God's Holy Writ clearly reveals Christ's return to gather His Church is after the tribulation...

Jesus speaking to His disciples and thus to His Church...

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV


You may fool others here, but not me. It is merely supposition that any early Church taught the pre-trib rapture theory. Even scholars of the pre-trib rapture school admitted there is no evidence of that doctrine being taught in the Christian Church prior to the 1800's. (See Dave MacPherson's scholarly documentation).

 

[OzSpen]

Well, I consider E.W. Bullinger of the 1880's having been an excellent Bible scholar, yet even he succumbed to the false 1830's pre-trib rapture theory, even though God's Holy Writ clearly reveals Christ's return to gather His Church is after the tribulation...

Jesus speaking to His disciples and thus to His Church...

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

You may fool others here, but not me. It is merely supposition that any early Church taught the pre-trib rapture theory. Even scholars of the pre-trib rapture school admitted there is no evidence of that doctrine being taught in the Christian Church prior to the 1800's. (See Dave MacPherson's scholarly documentation).

Davy,

Where did you get the idea that I supported a pre-trib rapture? I don't.

I've read and digested Dave MacPherson's documentation but I'd hardly call it 'scholarly' when he missed the fact that pre-trib rapture was taught way back in the 4th century.

Ephraem (AD 306 – 373) of Nisibis, was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis.

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!’ (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World).​

Also, take a read of Cyprian (ca. AD 200-258), Treatise 7.5, Shepherd of Hermas, vision 4, ch 2, and Irenaeus (AD 130-202), Against Heresies, 5.29.1.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

Even scholars of the pre-trib rapture school admitted there is no evidence of that doctrine being taught in the Christian Church prior to the 1800's

The Christian Church was established at Pentecost, and all the apostolic churches were taught about a pre-tribulation Rapture -- the Blessed Hope of the believer. So the scholars are DEAD WRONG. Indeed, it was Christ Himself who first presented this doctrine BEFORE His crucifixion and ascension. It is all there for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

 

[OzSpen]

The Christian Church was established at Pentecost, and all the apostolic churches were taught about a pre-tribulation Rapture -- the Blessed Hope of the believer. So the scholars are DEAD WRONG. Indeed, it was Christ Himself who first presented this doctrine BEFORE His crucifixion and ascension. It is all there for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Enoch,

You need to supply biblical evidence to support your assertions here.

In my post at #54 I provided links to some early church fathers who supported pre-trib. However, for you to state that "all the apostolic churches were taught about a pre-tribulation Rapture" without supporting evidence is drawing a long bow.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

You need to supply biblical evidence to support your assertions here.

The biblical evidence is overwhelming that not one of the passages which speaks about the Resurrection/Rapture connects it to any Tribulation period ("the time of Jacob's trouble"). Let's focus on just one passage (Titus 2:11-14).

THE BLESSED HOPE FOR THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF CHRIST
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1. As we can see here, this is addressed to those who have been saved by grace ("redeemed from all iniquity" and "a peculiar people" or a purchased possession of God).

2. The Blessed Hope is the glorious appearing of Christ for His saints. Jesus said in John 14:1-3, that "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". He said nothing about a Tribulation in that passage, but rather said "Let not your heart be troubled".

3. That is a promise (above) that He will personally come for His saints, and that is why we read in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that "the LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN" (another Rapture passage, indeed the primary one, with no reference to any Tribulation).

4. Then we see that He will "purify unto Himself a peculiar people" and this speaks of the Resurrection/Rapture and the glorification of the saints (where all will be perfected in body, soul, and spirit). And this purification is mentioned in 1 John 3:1-3, which is yet another Rapture passage:
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Again, we are told about the appearance of Christ for His saints, and that when He appears, we shall be like Him (perfected). Also note the connection between the hope of His appearance and our having to purify ourselves prior to the perfect purification which Christ will accomplish. And again there is no mention of any Tribulation.

5. In the Gospels, whenever Christ spoke of His coming for His saints, He said that it would be (a) sudden and (b) unexpected. The apostolic churches expected the IMMINENT coming of Christ for His saints, regardless of any future Tribulation period.

So what we see is that the *scholars* are dead wrong when the Scriptures prove that they are wrong. The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are periods of divine judgments accompanied by Satanic wrath and deception. They are reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Davy,

Where did you get the idea that I supported a pre-trib rapture? I don't.

I've read and digested Dave MacPherson's documentation but I'd hardly call it 'scholarly' when he missed the fact that pre-trib rapture was taught way back in the 4th century.

Ephraem (AD 306 – 373) of Nisibis, was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis.

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!’ (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World).​

Also, take a read of Cyprian (ca. AD 200-258), Treatise 7.5, Shepherd of Hermas, vision 4, ch 2, and Irenaeus (AD 130-202), Against Heresies, 5.29.1.

Oz

So, what remains to be seen?? That which is prophesied, and NO, not any "secret rapture".
Rev. 9[14] Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
[15] And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
> Yes! What you are reading is a specific date for WW3. When? Only God knows, but it is building, isn't it!
Could the old saints of yesteryear entertain that concept, whereby 1/3 of the world pop. Could be destroyed IN AN HOUR??
Nope!

A lot of the same ole dysfunctional thoughts of religious men of old, say nothing of what we are living RIGHT NOW!
Their events were not global, but in these days it will be!
.
That spirit of antichrist, being plural and NOT in "THE" Singular, is manifesting itself through many who "deny the Father and the Son", through such foul concepts and beliefs of Evolution Theory and Engineers from other Galaxies (UFOs), to name a few!
No need to rehash outdated theories of the ole time Saints, who really had NO CLUE of what's going on today.
The Pope as " THE" Antichrist? Ha!!
Does he DENY the Father and the Son?
Nope!
But then again, there will be those who will fabricate mountains out of mole hills!
Jesus wondered: When the son return, shall He find faith on the earth?
It is waning, isn't it!!
.
And let's NOT forget about 2 Thes. 2:3, when faith will go finally out the window! WHEN?
Just before He returns. It will be the catalyst and ONLY cause for His return!
The MoB will see to that! Effectively dividing the sheep from the goats.

 

[Enoch111]

...and NO, not any "secret rapture"...

Why do so many people resent a "secret rapture"? Why should the Resurrection/Rapture be displayed to an unbelieving world is the real issue? As Abraham said to the Rich Man, they will not believe though one rose from the dead.

 

[Earburner]

Why do so many people resent a "secret rapture"? Why should the Resurrection/Rapture be displayed to an unbelieving world is the real issue? As Abraham said to the Rich Man, they will not believe though one rose from the dead.

Because you all list it as being SECRET!