1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Tribulation saints

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by n2thelight, May 29, 2019.

  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    Christ brings with Him all who have died in Him throughout time.
     
  2. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    It's no such thing as a tribulation saint in the sense that you all present it.Here's what's gonna happen

    satan comes first ,pretending to be Christ,most of the world including Christians will believe this lie
    When Christians believe that lie,they will go from a virgin to a whore,they will be cut off from the Tree of Life and grafted into the tree of knowledge and evil.

    That's why Christ said

    Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    Come out of what?Confusion!!How do or will they?

    When the elect of God are called to death(satan)and the Holy Spirit speaks through them

    Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

    When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

    Christians that have been deceived will come out of the whore upon hearing the Holy Spirt speak through the elect ,they will be grafted back into the tree of life

    Those who don't come out of her before the return of Christ are dead,spiritually,and will only have life eternal after overcoming satan when he is released at the end of the millennium
     
  3. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    Plainly, obviously- Jesus doesn't take up the Kingship at that point, He is given the authority, but His Return does not come until the 7 Bowls and the gathering of the worlds armies at Armageddon, takes place.

    You are adamantly opposed to the truth of how it is only when the Book of Life is opened, that ANYONE is resurrected and obtains immortality. With the only exception of the martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4
    Revelation 11:15-19 says how the Lord's Day of wrath has come; the Sixth Seal event, then when Jesus comes He will bring our rewards, Matthew 16:27, and then how He will eventually Judge everyone. Revelation 20:11-15
    This prophetic verse, doesn't say when the Kingdom of God will come. We get that from Revelation 21:1-7 AFTER the Millennium.
     
  4. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    This is a wrong statement.
    Proved by how it is only after the Millennium that everyone who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
    Jesus only brings the souls of the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Likes Received:
    356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Matthew 24:29-31 gathering example is about the asleep saints gathered from the heavenly on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. The Mark 13:24-27 example is about the gathering of the saints that are alive on earth on that day.

    The Scripture tells us when that happens...

    Matt 24:29-30
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    KJV


    Mark 13:24-26
    24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    KJV


    In Revelation 16, on the 6th Vial, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". And the next event is the Armageddon event on the 7th Vial, which is the day of His 2nd coming.

    Rev 16:15-17
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    KJV
     
  6. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    Yes; to where He is, in Jerusalem. Where those who have kept their faith thru it all, will become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:21
    The only dead saints are those souls of the GT martyrs; Revelation 20:4 The rest of the dead await the GWT, after the Millennium. Even Daniel 12:13
     
  7. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,875
    Likes Received:
    2,158
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I understand tribulation saints to be those who come to know Christ in the Tribulation before the Great tribulation, when the Rapture comes midway.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Davy,

    You say I'm wrong but Shofar Ministries, Who are the tribulation saints? provides a biblical basis for post-tribulation rapture and the 'tribulation saints' as those who remained as Christians before and through the Great Tribulation period.

    The late Professor George Eldon Ladd, an evangelical, wrote:

    There is one very sobering question which weighs heavily upon the writer’s heart, and he would ask his readers to share it. Many of God’s people are being assured today that the Rapture will take place before the Tribulation and that the Church will not experience those terrible days. Those who hold a different view and believe that the Church will suffer in the Tribulation from Antichrist have not been vocal. The author knows of a good number of outstanding Christian leaders who hold this expectation, but they do not wish to be quoted and they have not publicly expressed themselves.

    However, can we afford to be silent on this question? In light of the fact that the Word of God nowhere expressly asserts a pretribulational rapture, and since there is no plain affirmation that the Church will be taken out of the world before Antichrist appears, let us suppose that we are in fact in the very last days, and within a matter of months or a few years at most, God moves upon the events of world history so that suddenly a new Caesar or Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin appears who is unquestionably the Antichrist. Suppose that such as person, the incarnation of satanic power, actually gains domination of the entire world as neither Mussolini or Hitler or Stalin were able to do. Suppose that he uses this power to demand a worship of himself and his state upon penalty of death, suppose that martyrs begin to fall by the hundreds of thousands, not only of Jews but particularly of Christians who will not worship the Beast or receive his mark. Suppose that suddenly the people of God find themselves engulfed in a horrible persecution at the hands of the Antichrist when they had been assured repeatedly on the authority of the Word of God that this experience would never befall them. What will be the result? We leave it to the reader’s imagination. Certainly we dare not propagate a teaching of safety about which the Word of God is not indisputably clear, nor should we accept the responsibility of filling the hearts of God’s people with what may be a false hope and thus leave them utterly unprepared for terrible days of persecution when and if they fall. If there is the possibility that the Church is to suffer tribulation at the hands of Antichrist, do not those who believe it have a God-given responsibility to do what they can to prepare the Church for what may be ahead, even though it is a very unwelcome message? Our responsibility is to God, not to man (George Eldon Ladd 1956. The Blessed Hope. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, pp 159-160).

    See this thread on another forum that challenges whether you or I is wrong: "Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment.

    It's common sense that if the rapture doesn't take place until after the Great Tribulation (the post-trib view), then all believers on earth during this period are the tribulation saints/believers.l

    I'm not proposing an erroneous or outlandish view.

    Oz
     
    Keraz likes this.
  9. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224

    You not doing Rev 20:12 correctly

    Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

    Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

    Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

    Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

    To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

    If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

    Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

    The sea is the massive number of mortal souls that follow Satan. These are those souls who did not overcome, and are in a place of holding at the time of their physical death, and also from the Millennium. There it is again! "According to their works."

    Don't be frightened by this! For we are now under grace, and the Antichrist has not yet arrived. You are going to face the truth now, or be judged by your works from the thousand year Millennium age. Eternity is a long time, so much so that our minds simply cannot comprehend it.

    To refuse Christ at the end of the Millennium age will commit you to destruction.

    Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    This "second death" is also the final death and the sinner's soul will be turned to ashes from within. Death and even the thought of death will be no more with us.

    I Corinthins 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

    Following this death of the mortal soul, after the final judgment, only victory remains. Those of the mortal soul will be so blotted out from the minds of their saved loved ones that even the remembrance of their existence will not exist. There will be no tears or sorrow for them by loved ones, because it will be as if that soul had never existed and been created in the first place.

    I Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

    There will be no sting of death following the second resurrection, for all souls living then will be eternal and immortal.

    I Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

    I Corinthians 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Our hope and salvation now can only be through our Lord and Savior.

    Hebrews 2:15 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

    Jesus said he came to earth to destroy death, which is the devil.

    Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    It is important that we understand the chronological order of the events that will occur, and the physical and spiritual bodies that we will be in during each of these times. The very condition, and life of your soul relies on your understanding of these events. For by not understanding them, and chasing after man's traditions, assures that you will follow the Antichrist and think he is the true Christ. This is a must before we can understand the Millennium age.

    It's time you learn about it, for you will be in it very shortly.
     
  10. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    This statement is right and it applies to every person alive today.
    But your belief of a transformation of the faithful when Jesus Returns, is not correct. Life will go on just as now, with people being born and dying.
    It will be a better time, as Jesus will rule justly.
    Only after the Millennium, will the last Trump sound and everyone will be judged. Only the will be Books be opened and immortality conferred onto those whose names are found in them.
     
  11. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    What is the first resurrection to you?
     
  12. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    Christ will be here,correct?Christ is not coming back in the flesh the next time,and those that He rules must be in their spiritual bodies.
     
  13. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    There is no general 'first resurrection' of the Church.
    The only people brought back to life at Jesus' Return, are the martyrs who were killed during the GT; the final 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4
    Unscriptural rubbish.
    The disciples were told that Jesus will come back in the same way He departed. Bodily, not as a spirit. Acts 1:11 He is the only One who has been made immortal, everyone else must wait in the grave, or if those who are still alive after the 1000 years, will be changed in the blink of an eye to immortality to live in the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56
     
  14. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    What do you think a spiritual body is?Do you think it has no mass?Christ didn't go up in bodily form ,He was transfigured .

    Ain't nobody in the grave ,which means you believe in soul sleep.
    Those in Christ at His return takes part in the first resurrection which makes them immortal at that time which is why they have no worries of the 2nd death.

    Those not in Christ, although changed will still have a mortal soul,and can die the 2nd death,which is the death of the soul!!!!!!
     
  15. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

    What does that verse mean to you?
     
  16. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    Again I ask if flesh and blood can't enter the kingdom and the kingdom becomes Christ at His return what kind of body do we have?
     
  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224
    And just so you know,Christ over the kingdom to the Father at the end of the millennium

    I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

    At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

    I Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

    Jesus Christ must reign until all of His enemies, which includes Satan, the fallen angels and all the souls of them that chose to follow him will be destroyed. This comes after the time of judgment and the Millennium thousand year reign of Christ kingdom on earth. This is why the full Godhead will not be on the earth until after the Great white throne judgment and hell has turned Satan and his realm to ashes. There are two death as we read of in Revelation 20.

    Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

    This is John writing and speaking as Jesus is showing him what is going to happen in the future. John is viewing the time at the great white throne judgment, and the events after the age of the flesh is over, and after Jesus has returned and His thousand year Millennium is over and finished.
     
  18. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    It means what you conveniently omitted: Those martyrs who will be killed during the GT, are the ONLY ones whom Jesus will bring back to life at His Return. ALL the rest of the dead 'sleep' in their graves until the Last Trump call at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
    This refers to Eternity, to those worthy to receive immortality, who have their names Written in the Book of Life, at the GWTJ.
     
  19. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    224

    Who is changed when Christ returns per Corinth ? The army that Christ returns with consist of only those who died during the tribulation? That's false

    So you believe in soul sleep?

    Again those who have died,( ALL )of them are in Heaven.

    Do you believe Christ rose from the dead?As a Christian you should,in other words if Christ is not still in the grave,how do you feel other's are?

    At death or the 2nd coming which ever comes first,the flesh is done away with!!!
     
  20. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    146
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    The prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is about after the Millennium, when the Book of life is opened.
    The army that accompanies Jesus is the heavenly angel army. As clearly stated in Revelation 19:14
    Yes, that conforms to what we are told about the dead in the Bible.
    No one conscious is in heaven. The souls of the martyrs are kept under the Altar, Rev 6:9-11 and they are allowed to cry out at times.
    Jesus said in 5 + verses that it is impossible for humans to got to heaven.
    After death, all except the Trib martyrs, must wait until the GWT Judgment, to be raised and stand before God. Even Daniel 12:13

    It seems, n2L that you have a very unbiblical view of things. It looks like you have chosen to believe false teachings, so the Lord has locked you into them and you are incapable of understanding the truths. Isaiah 29, Jeremiah 4:22, Ephesians 4:18
     
Loading...