Tribulation saints

[Davy]

And I already showed you that those passages have nothing to do with the Rapture.

Looks like some people can't get off their theological treadmills, and get stuck on them like hamsters.

What you say is impossible.

And no, you have not... been able to disprove those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures are not aligned with Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Furthermore, even Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 reveals that "caught up" example to be after the tribulation, because he points to the resurrection of the asleep saints, and that resurrection is on the final day of this world when Jesus returns. You have not been able to disprove that Scripture either. All 3 of those Scripture examples are direct statements that Christ's return and gathering of the Church is after the tribulation He warned of.

 

[Earburner]

Can't agree,however why were they not raptured?Also those who die during this time will be killed by those who think they are doing God a favor,they didn't get saved during the tribulation ,they were saved before.


Chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation covers the first days of the Millennium, when Jesus Christ comes to earth to establish His kingdom. This chapter runs close to the prophecies of Ezekiel in the last eight (8) chapters of the book of Ezekiel. "Millennium" means "1,000 years". This period is basically a 1,000 years of teaching and learning.

Jesus Christ will be with us here on earth in His kingdom then. There will be teaching and discipline, and many people saved in this Millennium period. Most of the people saved today will not be reigning with Christ in the Millennium, because they will throw their inheritance away very soon, when they choose to go whoring after the Antichrist. Some of these people are the ones who believe in the rapture theory. They will chase after the first messiah that appears on earth and not be part of the wedding between Christ and His bride (the church) at the sounding of the seventh trump.

Those who fall into the trap of the rapture theory doctrine can repent and be saved in the Millennium age, when their sins of following the Antichrist are committed in ignorance. You can even look at the Millennium kingdom as the "time of salvation", for many will accept and follow Christ in the Millennium. However the period of grace is for this age of the flesh only, for in the Millennium age salvation will be by their works only as we will see in this chapter. Due to the great apostasy there will be more saved out of the Millennium, than during any other period of time.

Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

When Satan has completed his five month reign here on earth, the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog have already taken place. Jesus Christ is returning with His army to earth, and this army are those saints that are already with Him. Those saints that died and went to be with Him as recorded in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Though their bodies were laid in the ground, their souls returned instantly to the Father, and not though a rapture.

On that first day of the Millennium age, both the beast and the false prophet are destroyed. The beast is in two parts, the one world political system that gives way to Satan's one world religious system. These two systems of support will not be brought back to support Satan at the end of the millennium. [See Revelation 19:20 where both of these are destroyed.]

I believe this angel to be Michael, for it's Michael and his angels that control Satan. This chain that Michael will have is a locking, sealing and confining device. Satan will be locked away, and his influence will be totally absent during this time of teaching.

This is why every knee, even the Kenites, will bow to Christ. Satan, their father, will be in the pit and will not be able to influence their thinking.

"Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

"The dragon" was Satan's title in the world that was, just as his title of "the Antichrist", or "instead of Christ" is during the last five months of this earth age of the flesh. Dragon is the title he wears as he rules over the ten kings and seven regions or continents. [see Revelation 12 and 13]

The "serpent" was Satan's roll in the Garden of Eden when he "wholly seduced" Eve. Eve bore his offspring Cain, the father of the Kenites. The "Devil" was his title given in Matthew 13:39 as Jesus identified the enemy as the "Devil". Satan will have no influence in this time of teaching.

In Isaiah 14:12-16, Satan is given another name, "Lucifer", which means "morning star" or "bright star". It tells us that people will walk by the pit and see Satan bound and say, "Is this the man that deceived the world?" They will wonder how they could have been so deceived through this earth age into believing Satan to be the true Messiah.

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

When this time of the great deception is on earth, it will be during the five month period of Revelation 9:5,10, and the Antichrist will then deceive all nations and all peoples of the earth except the elect. When the millennium is over, Satan will be released to try to deceive the people all over again, and many will follow him just as they did in this earth age.

Why would God turn Satan loose a short season? Because this will be a time of testing for those claiming to be Christians who were deceived by him in this earth age. After the thousand year testing and teaching, some will still seek after Satan, and they will be gathered by the angels as tares [see Matthew 13] to be burned with him.

Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity:"

Matthew 13:42 "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

God is a fair and just God, and when all have been taught and tested after their changing into that spiritual body, there will be no mental handicaps or sickness to distort the outcome. Every soul will have a sound mind, and an adequate thinking capacity for observing Jesus Christ in His reign, and Satan in the pit. Then with full understanding, every soul will choose for himself/herself whom they will follow. This not a matter of second chances, because for many in this earth age they did not stand a chance the first time. They have simply not been taught the truth of God's eternal plan.

We don't need those words to know that the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition is the Antichrist. He has many other names and titles.

The context of the words of KJV- 2 Thes. 2 is in the plural. The singular wording of "that Wicked";
"that man of sin" doesn't belong, as is the proof that the Textus Receptus reveals.
The TR Greek uses the word "the", which allows it to be understood in the plural, as being "the wicked"; "the man of sin".
I am telling you how it came to be, of why you do believe that way. The translators of the KJV used/inserted the wrong word, because the word
"that" it is not used in the TR Greek text.
Do you understand?

I'm giving you FACT, but you want to keep fantasy!

 

[Earburner]

We don't need those words to know that the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition is the Antichrist. He has many other names and titles.

If you know your doctrine so well, then list the NT scripture of the KJV that literally says: "the antichrist".
Now since you can't do that, then I strongly suggest that you learn to read 2 Thes. 2 in the plural, in that there are "many antichrist", as the epistles of John clearly states!
Learn to think outside of the "religious box" that the "scholarly learned" have put you in!!
N

 

[Earburner]

So therefore, how many of "the wicked" are there?
Many!!
In fact, every person who is "none of his", in Rom. 8:9 is wicked! How many is that?
Many!
When Jesus returns to destroy the many, who are
"none of His", he will be destroying who?
The wicked, who are many!

It's really not that hard to understand, and you do know that what I am showing here is scriptural and factual, but unfortunately the pushers of doctrines of demons have turned your head to the lies of their fabrications!

 

[Earburner]

The Greek word, " ὁ " is what your argument is unhinged upon and perhaps a better English word understanding of ὁ is the word "who."

Ok, but why is it that we all understand that "the natural man" is understood in the plural, though we all can personalize it, and APPLY it to ourselves individually in the singular.
1 Cor. 2[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
> is not "the natural man" unsaved, being "none of his", being also them who are "the wicked", "the man of sin", the son of perdition (destruction)"?
> How many are there, who are "the natural man"?
Many!!

 

[Jay Ross]

Ok, but why is it that we all understand that "the natural man" is understood in the plural, though we all can personalize it, and APPLY it to ourselves individually in the singular.
1 Cor. 2[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
> is not "the natural man" unsaved, being "none of his", being also them who are "the wicked", "the man of sin", the son of perdition (destruction)"?
> How many are there, who are "the natural man"?
Many!!

I have provided my response to what you had written after checking the interlinear I use.

It seems that you like to spar with other people and I, who has other things to do, have no wish to be embroiled in that fruitless activity.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

Is not "the natural man", the man of sin, the son of perdition (destruction)? Yes!
So then, for the sake argument, let's speak that forth in 2 Thes. 2[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [Jesus' Glorious return] except there come a falling away first, and the natural man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
> Jesus showed us that our bodies are and were made to be the temple of God!
Unfortunately, God isn't dwelling within many of those temples "made without hands", but I do believe you know who is!
Yes! It's "the natural man" of themselves! They remain to be of their father the devil (which makes them to be the sons of the devil).
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall the wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him [or them- "many antichrists"], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Earburner]

I have provided my response to what you had written after checking the interlinear I use.

It seems that you like to spar with other people and I, who has other things to do, have no wish to be embroiled in that fruitless activity.

Shalom

That's OK, you don't have to be "embroiled" today.
.
However, one day you could be embroiled, if you are not paying attention to HOW you are:
"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." 2 Peter 3:12
"Strong delusion" has a tendency to cause people to be "looking for and hasting unto" false concepts.

 

[OzSpen]

If ten people are told there will be a 'rapture', the majority of them will think you're talking about a pre-trib rapture, simply because the majority have abused that term 'rapture', some of them even leaving off the pre-trib phrase and just making the false assumption that one knows its to occur prior to the tribulation. That is plenty reason to not use the term, because of how it is abused away from the actual Scripture proof that shows the harpazo event in 1 Thess.4 is actually after the tribulation. One of the Scripture proofs I've already shown are the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 examples Jesus Himself gave for the timing.

And since Apostle Philip was "caught up" after witnessing The Gospel to the Ethiopian, and he did not go to Heaven, but was found transplanted elsewhere on earth, that reveals the word harpazo does not automatically mean a rapture to Heaven like even many post-tribbers wrongly teach.

Davy,

Of course, harpazw does not always mean rapture to heaven as in the example you gave of Philip. However, it does mean 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon 1957:108).

It's like the English word 'drive' that can mean to drive my car or the batsman drives a ball through the covers in cricket. Many words in English have more than one meaning but that doesn't exclude different meanings in certain contexts.

Don't you believe the Bible teaches the rapture? What will happen to those who have died in Christ and those who remain alive on the earth when Jesus returns?

Oz

 

[n2thelight]

Don't you believe the Bible teaches the rapture? What will happen to those who have died in Christ and those who remain alive on the earth when Jesus returns?

Oz

Those who died in Christ,He brings back with Him,ain't nobody coming out the grave

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Those who have died are already risen,that's how they come back with Him.Those alive will change to like those He brings back.

Now all shall be changed at His return,but the difference is the state of the soul at that return,being changed does not mean automatically immortal .The soul at death is not immortal,regardless of being changed.In Christ at the return you good,meaning the 2nd death has no power over you,not in Christ simply means your soul is not immortal and has a chance to die the 2nd death!!!

 

[farouk]

Well, I consider E.W. Bullinger of the 1880's having been an excellent Bible scholar, yet even he succumbed to the false 1830's pre-trib rapture theory, even though God's Holy Writ clearly reveals Christ's return to gather His Church is after the tribulation...

Jesus speaking to His disciples and thus to His Church...

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV


You may fool others here, but not me. It is merely supposition that any early Church taught the pre-trib rapture theory. Even scholars of the pre-trib rapture school admitted there is no evidence of that doctrine being taught in the Christian Church prior to the 1800's. (See Dave MacPherson's scholarly documentation).

I don't see Matthew 24 as referring to the church; much more likely to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't see Matthew 24 as referring to the church; much more likely to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

So the church need not read Matt 24 correct?Now check out the last verse of Mark 13

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Now who will these saints get their knowledge from?

 

[farouk]

So the church need not read Matt 24 correct?Now check out the last verse of Mark 13

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Now who will these saints get their knowledge from?

The Scriptures.

The rapture and the tribulation are not the same, clearly, from different passages. 1 Thess. 4 is rather distinct from Matt. 24.

 

[OzSpen]

Those who died in Christ,He brings back with Him,ain't nobody coming out the grave

n2thelight,

I think you are 'farfromlight' on this one.

That is not what these verses in 1 Thess 4 state. Simply put, the rapture is what happens at Christ’s second coming when believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (their bodies are presently in the grave as dust), particularly with a reference to these verses in 1 Thess 4:

13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words (1 Thess 4:13-17 NLT).​

These are the teachings of Paul to the Thessalonian Christians to give them hope.

1. Jesus died and was raised again. This is important to believers because of what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:23, 51-53 (NLT):

There is an order to this resurrection:

Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.... We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.​

2. 1 Cor 15 confirms that those believers who have died will be raised with transformed bodies to live forever when the trumpet blows at his second coming.

3. 1 Thess confirms that those believers who will be raised (bodies, I presume) at the last day will join with their souls/spirits who are already with Jesus. They can't come back in bodies with Jesus (after the rapture) as embodied saints because their bodies have disintegrated in the earth.

4. You state:

"Those who have died are already risen, that's how they come back with Him.Those alive will change to like those He brings back."

This is not so.

Those who have died have bodies that have turned to dust and they are present by soul/spirit with Jesus. 'Absent from the body and present with the Lord'. I Cor 15 demonstrates that 'our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies' (v. 53) on Jesus' return.

5. You stated:

"Now all shall be changed at His return,but the difference is the state of the soul at that return,being changed does not mean automatically immortal".

That's not what Scripture teaches. I've already given it to you. When the last trumpet sounds and Christ returns, 'Those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies' (1 Cor 15:53).

Why can't you see that on Christ's return our bodies will be raised immortal, to live forever?

Oz

 

[Earburner]

Those who died in Christ,He brings back with Him,ain't nobody coming out the grave

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Those who have died are already risen,that's how they come back with Him.Those alive will change to like those He brings back.

Now to that, I agree, except to add that they who are with Him in His return, will be in the likeness of His immortal NEW body. Therefore, In His likeness, we who are alive, and are born again prior to His return, shall also be changed.

Now all shall be changed at His return,but the difference is the state of the soul at that return,being changed does not mean automatically immortal .The soul at death is not immortal,regardless of being changed.In Christ at the return you good,meaning the 2nd death has no power over you,not in Christ simply means your soul is not immortal and has a chance to die the 2nd death!!!

To that, I say: No one has been given a soul, as if it was waiting around with God until one is born into flesh. That one single concept has corrupted the church immensely. In the KJV- Gen. 2:7, Adam "became a living soul", because God breathed Oxygenated air into him. See also Gen. 7:22.
So yes, if that is what you are meaning, no person who remains at His return is an immortal soul except for those who are born again already, before His return.

 

[Earburner]

However, the dead in Christ, are born again Saints, who died and are asleep in Jesus. These also shall be resurrected into His likeness of his New body of immortality. "The dead in christ shall rise first, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds," 1 Thes. 4:16-17.
.
At this moment, the dead in Christ are not yet immortal, but are asleep in Christ, in paradise. Unfortunately, paradise is not anything that anyone fully comprehends, so for anyone to speak about it, is sheer speculation.

 

[Taken]

What may I ask is a tribulation saint?

A person who;
is alive and suffers during the "great tribulation",

And believes in God,

And comes to belief in Jesus the Christ Messiah,

And becomes soul saved and spirit quickened,

And becomes Bodily killed by the anti-Christ

And Their dead bodies remain on earth.

And Their saved souls/quickened spirits are risen up to heaven together.

And at the end of the 7 yr trib. Their bodies are gathered and raised up together.

Glory to God, to Send His People Israel, during the Great Tribulation; Tribesmen to teach Israel of Christ Jesus their Messiah, so they ALSO (like Gentile Believers), may be SAVED.

Taken

 

[Earburner]

A person who;
is alive and suffers during the "great tribulation",

And believes in God,

And comes to belief in Jesus the Christ Messiah,

And becomes soul saved and spirit quickened,

And becomes Bodily killed by the anti-Christ

And Their dead bodies remain on earth.

And Their saved souls/quickened spirits are risen up to heaven together.

And at the end of the 7 yr trib. Their bodies are gathered and raised up together.

Glory to God, to Send His People Israel, during the Great Tribulation; Tribesmen to teach Israel of Christ Jesus their Messiah, so they ALSO (like Gentile Believers), may be SAVED.

Taken

Hmmm...so then, according to you, no one else "came out of great tribulation", except those who are of the last generation, just before Jesus returns in flaming fire??
Now in that verse, what about all those who also have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?
So, ever since 33 AD, there has been no born again Christian who has suffered "great tribulation", or none who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"?
.
Rev. 7:13-17
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
.
Given the scriptures above, that prove otherwise of your belief system, I am in the place to say that you are following "strong delusion to believe a lie".
Very, very few have the correct understanding
of "the 70 weeks" in Daniel.

 

[Davy]

Davy,

Of course, harpazw does not always mean rapture to heaven as in the example you gave of Philip. However, it does mean 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon 1957:108).

Regardless, the word does not automatically mean a gathering back into Heaven. And since we are given enough other... Scripture to determine how it is meant in 1 Thess.4, there's no sense in sugar-coating a false doctrine like the pre-trib rapture theory.

 

[Davy]

I don't see Matthew 24 as referring to the church; much more likely to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

You really mean, you have been wrongly taught that Jesus was speaking to Jews only, and to think what He said there on the Mount of Olives is not for the Church.

But in reality, that was the very foundation... of His Church there on the Mount of Olives with Him. And Apostle Paul showed this also in Ephesians 2 when he included the OT prophets in that also, with Jesus as The Cornerstone.

Another proof that Jesus' Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, is for the Church, is because He gave the seven main signs of the end of this world leading up to His return, which is the subject of His Book of Revelation.

So IF... you can prove that Christ's Book of Revelation is not... written to His Church, then I might believe what you say. Yet I know... you cannot prove that, and even if you tried it would make you look foolish.