Tribulation saints

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farouk

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You really mean, you have been wrongly taught that Jesus was speaking to Jews only, and to think what He said there on the Mount of Olives is not for the Church.

But in reality, that was the very foundation... of His Church there on the Mount of Olives with Him. And Apostle Paul showed this also in Ephesians 2 when he included the OT prophets in that also, with Jesus as The Cornerstone.

Another proof that Jesus' Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, is for the Church, is because He gave the seven main signs of the end of this world leading up to His return, which is the subject of His Book of Revelation.

So IF... you can prove that Christ's Book of Revelation is not... written to His Church, then I might believe what you say. Yet I know... you cannot prove that, and even if you tried it would make you look foolish.
The Rapture of the church in the air (1 Thess. 4) and the great tribulation on earth (Matthew 24) are clearly different events, happening to different people.
 
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Davy

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The Rapture of the church in the air (1 Thess. 4) and the great tribulation on earth (Matthew 24) are clearly different events, happening to different people.

I realize that's what you've been taught from men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture theory, but that is not what God's Holy Writ teaches.

Jesus gave 7 main signs of the end of this world in His Olivet discourse. Those signs parallel the Seals He gave in Revelation 6. His Book of Revelation He gave His Church through His Apostle John.

The men you're listening to are false.
 
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OzSpen

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Regardless, the word does not automatically mean a gathering back into Heaven. And since we are given enough other... Scripture to determine how it is meant in 1 Thess.4, there's no sense in sugar-coating a false doctrine like the pre-trib rapture theory.

You refuse to deal with the evidence I provide from Scripture to push your own agenda.

upload_2019-7-5_8-0-4.jpeg
 
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Keraz

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Why can't you see that on Christ's return our bodies will be raised immortal, to live forever?
We don't see that idea, because it isn't there.
The ONLY time that those worthy will become immortal is at the Great White Throne Judgement, where the Book of Life is opened.
Those brought back to life at the Return, are only the martyrs of the Great Trib, as Revelation 20:4 plainly says. Even those resurrected people can die again, as Lazarus did, but the second death has no power over them....because their names are in the Book of Life and at the GWT they will automatically receive immortality.
 

Keraz

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You refuse to deal with the evidence I provide from Scripture to push your own agenda.
I have yet to see any scripture that says God will take His people to heaven.
We are earth people, our God given tasks are here. God has created angels to serve Him in heaven; what purpose is served to convert us into spiritual beings?
Eventually God will come to the earth and dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-17 People then will live for Eternity.
 

farouk

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So the church need not read Matt 24 correct?Now check out the last verse of Mark 13

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Now who will these saints get their knowledge from?
A good principle is: "All Scripture is for us. All Scripture is not about us."
 
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Davy

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You refuse to deal with the evidence I provide from Scripture to push your own agenda.

View attachment 6703

Sorry, but you are the one pushing a false agenda, even while falsely claiming... you don't even believe in it, i.e., the false pre-trib rapture theory.

You really are not as sly as you think you are with your trying to claim support for a pre-trib rapture while trying to claim to be neutral. One who agrees God's Word teaches a post-trib return of Jesus and gathering of the Church would never... ever... claim a pre-trib rapture theory has any authenticity in Scripture, nor would they claim an early Church father taught it using debateable pseudo-Ephraim writings that were supposedly... of a guy named Ephraim in the 4th century, which some pre-trib scholars have been using while having been found guilty of historical revisionism.
 

OzSpen

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I have yet to see any scripture that says God will take His people to heaven.
We are earth people, our God given tasks are here. God has created angels to serve Him in heaven; what purpose is served to convert us into spiritual beings?
Eventually God will come to the earth and dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-17 People then will live for Eternity.

I'm not referring to people who will be on the earth but to those who are raptured near the end of history. The rapture is based on the verb
harpazw which means to 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon 1957:108).

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thess 4:15-17 NLT).​

I agree that people will live eternally but that does not exclude the rapture when the dead in Christ will be raptured (caught up) to meet the Lord in the air at his Second Coming.

Oz
 

Earburner

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We don't see that idea, because it isn't there.
The ONLY time that those worthy will become immortal is at the Great White Throne Judgement, where the Book of Life is opened.
Those brought back to life at the Return, are only the martyrs of the Great Trib, as Revelation 20:4 plainly says. Even those resurrected people can die again, as Lazarus did, but the second death has no power over them....because their names are in the Book of Life and at the GWT they will automatically receive immortality.
There is no literal, future GWT judgment.
In Adam, we all were judged "already" (John 3:18) to eternal death. Gen. 3[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore, God's judgment now, is for that which was lost, the Gift eternal life!
It's all symbolism of that judgment that now takes place by John 3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
.
Listen closely...Jesus Himself IS God the Father's judgment, to either remain in eternal death, or by faith, receive eternal life.
By belief or unbelief in the Promise of the Messiah to come, IS THAT judgment.
.
Now that He has appeared in the flesh, all are being judged NOW for belief (not condemned) or unbelief (condemned already).
.
Equally so, is "the judgment seat of Christ".
We, who are Born Again of His Spirit, must all appear before Him. Not inthe future, after His Glorious 2nd Coming, but NOW.
.
His form of judgment towards His Saints, is either through His chastisement (correction) or His blessing (reward), while we are waiting for His sudden and Glorious return.
.
Through our belief/faith in Christ, no matter how weak or small, Born Again Christians are never judged unto condemnation.
 

Taken

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Hmmm...so then, according to you, no one else "came out of great tribulation", except those who are of the last generation, just before Jesus returns in flaming fire??

According to Scripture ~
Every man who Believes IN Thee Heavenly God...Suffers tribulation (caused BY MEN),
BECAUSE they Believe IN Thee Heavenly God,
(INSTEAD) of gods men Invent.

According to Scripture ~
Every man who Believes IN Thee Lord Jesus, Thee Christ Messiah...Suffers tribulation (caused BY MEN),
BECAUSE they Believe IN Thee Lord Jesus, Thee Christ Messiah.

According to Scripture ~
The Heavenly Lord God Almighty, has been ACCOUNTING A DIVISION AMONG Earthly Men...
OF:
Those WITH Thee Lord God
FROM:
Those AGAINST Thee Lord God.

According to Scripture ~
Thee Heavenly Lord God Almighty, has SET A TIME FOR the DIVIDED, WITH Him, TO BE:
SEPARATED
FROM:
Those AGAINST Him.

The DIVISION IS: singularly PER Every Single man, PER Every Single man's INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

The SEPARATION IS:
...Sometimes SINGULARLY
...Sometimes IN A GROUP

A Mans INDIVIDUAL SEPARATION...
...IS ALWAYS Concerning the WHOLENESS of the man; SOUL, SPIRIT, BODY.


A mans INDIVIDUAL SEPARATION...
...IS Thereafter Followed BY;
THEIR WHOLENESS BEING Gathered.


The GATHERING IS the ACT OF GOD.
...Gathering of A SINGLE mans SOUL.
...Gathering of A SINGLE mans SPIRIT.
...Gathering of A SINGLE mans BODY.

Gods ACT of "GATHERING" each PART of the WHOLE of a MAN...IS NOT AT THE "SAME" TIME.

Souls of men...Spirits of men ARE ALWAYS Gathered FIRST....(sometimes individually, sometimes at the same time).

Bodies of men...ARE ALWAYS Gathered LAST.

To your question...

Hmmm...so then, according to you, no one else "came out of great tribulation", except those who are of the last generation, just before Jesus returns in flaming fire??

According to Scripture (to which I agree)...

Those who "come OUT of the GREAT Tribulation" ARE Those who "are IN the GREAT Tribulation".

The "GREAT" Tribulation, is a Seven Year Time Period.
"IF" a man, IS physically ALIVE, DURING "that" Time Period...AND STANDING "AGAINST"...THEE Lord God...His LAST OPPORTUNITY TO:
Become DIVIDED unto the Lord God,
AND
"STAND" WITH Thee Lord God,
AND
Become SEPARATED
"UNTO" The Lord God.

IN Brief...
Not ALL of Scripture is Mysterious.

One CAN NOT COME OUT of the Great Tribulation, IF they are NOT FIRST "IN" the Great Tribulation.

One WHO Believes IN THEE Lord God Almighty;
IS NOT APPOINTED to "BE" "IN" the Great Tribulation.



Now in that verse, what about all those who also have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?

All "those" ARE PREPARED by their choice OF Division (WITH the Lord God ) and SEPARATED, according to the TIME FRAME Scripture Reveals.

Many have Bodily Died, and THEIR Saved Soul Separated and Gathered UP to Heaven;
And THEIR Quickened Spirit Separated and Gathered UP to Heaven;
And THEY WAIT for THEIR BODY to be RAISED and GATHERED together...with FAITHFUL OTHERS...
IN the Clouds and THEN ON Earth
OR
ON Earth.


So, ever since 33 AD, there has been no born again Christian who has suffered "great tribulation",

Correct.

Tribulation and THEE GREAT Tribulation are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS...that result IN SUFFERING of men.

Tribulation is what MEN cause amongst themselves.
Tribulation is what SATAN instigates and perpetuates among men.

ALL POWER, Angels have, and that Men have;
Comes FROM GOD.

Throughout History, since the Beginning;
SOME Angels have USED their POWER, to STAND AGAINST GOD;
SOME Men have USED their POWER, to STAND AGAINST GOD;
And the RESULT has BEEN:
"Division" AND "Tribulation"...
Among the Angels
AND
Among Men.

Thee GREAT Tribulation IS;
DIFFERENT:
The GREAT Tribulation IS;
God "ALLOWiNG" those "AGAINST" Him...
(The Angels AND Men)
TO: USE THEIR POWERS, "WITHOUT" Gods INTERVENTION.
AND God Himself, USING HIS POWER, VIA the EARTH and WEATHER, TO CAUSE DESTRUCTION, UPON THE EARTH.

IN Brief
The POWER of the Angels (Against God) and the POWER of Men (Against God) and Gods POWER Over the Weather ...
HAS been Observed A BIT Hear, A BIT There around the World.

During the GREAT Tribulation...
THE WHOLE WORLD, WILL EXPERIENCE at the SAME TIME;
Oppression Effected BY the POWER OF Angels AGAINST God.
Oppression Effected BY the POWER OF Men AGAINST God.
Gods POWER Over the WEATHER, causing World Wide, Lightinging, Burning of a Thrid of the Worlds TREES, Volcano Erruptions, Causing the Sunshine to be blocked from the Earth, Earth Quaking and Shifting, Oceans Effect of Shifting Earth under the Oceans, Shorelines Flooded, Crops Destroyed, Causing Famines, Potable Water Polution, Insects Swarming, Causing Famines, and Spread of Diseases, and on and on.

EVERYONE ALIVE "DURING" The Great Tribulation ... Will SUFFER, AT:
The Hand of Angels Against God;
The Hand of Men Against God;
The Hand of God Controlling the Weather;

[BEFORE and DURING the Great Tribulation]
EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN..."MAY" Elect TO;

STAND "WITH" thee Lord God...
OR
STAND "AGAINST" thee Lord God...

Every Individual man SHALL Be "DIVIDED" and "SEPARATED" According TO:
The mans ELECTION, to BE WITH or WITHOUT thee Lord God.

or none who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"?

Incorrect.

FEW of the Tribes of Israel...
...HAVE WASHED their Robes...
...Become Bodily DEAD, crucified with Christ
...Become Forgiven
...Become Soul Saved
...Become Spirit Quickened
...Become PART of Christ's Church
...Become Prepared to Be SEPARATED...
...And SHALL BE SEPARATED when their Lord Calls them UP to the Clouds, Above the Earth, DURING the Great Tribulation.
...
MANY Gentiles HAVE DONE the EXACT SAME as ABOVE.

AND FYI....MANY of Israel Tribesmen HAVE NOT "ACCEPTED" Jesus as THEIR "Christ Messiah".

Has YOUR Gentile kidsmen BEEN Teaching ISRAEL Tribesmen OF THEIR Christ Messiah, JESUS, for the past TWO thousands Years?

DO YOU? Do YOU solicite or invite Israel tribesMen to Come and Hear of Jesus THEIR Christ Messiah?

No? WHY NOT?
THE ANSWER IS: God Already has a PLAN, and ORDER to WHICH "Gentiles" Will MAKE their ELECTION;
To Stand WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God.
AND:
God has a PLAN and ORDER to WHICH "His Tribes of ISRAEL" Will MAKE their ELECTION:
To Stand WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God.

The FIRST (To BELIEVE) (ISRAEL) WILL BE LAST...
(To BE Separated and Gathered).
The LAST (To BELIEVE) (Gentiles) WILL BE FIRST...
(To BE SEPARATED and Gathered).

Rev. 7:13-17
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Correct. "OUT" of the GREAT Tribulation
Which AGAINST MEANS "THOSE WERE IN the [/B] GREAT [/B] Tribulation.

"IF" you UNDERSTAND...
CONVERTED MEN, ARE ALREADY...
Bodily Crucified, Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened....AND NOT APPOINTED to suffer the GREAT Tribulation.

The Tribes of ISRAEL HOWEVER (for the most part)...HAVE NOT YET...SUBMITTED to Faith IN JESUS, their CHRIST MESSIAH.

The TRIBES of ISRAEL, ARE SENT "TRIBESMEN" and "WITNESSES" to PREACH their CHRIST MESSIAH, SO THEY MAY BECOME "MADE" WHOLE...Body, Soul, Spirit...Their Suffering during the Great Tribulation, IS BRIEF. AS SOON AS THEY BELIEVE IN JESUS, their Christ Messiah...
(They are NOT Crucified with Christ....THEY ARE BODILY KILLED, by the Power and Authority of the Anti-Christ....Their Souls are saved, and shall go up to Heaven...Their Spirits are quickened and shall go up to Heaven....AT THE END of the Great Tribulation their DEAD BODIES SHALL BE Gathered Together and RAISED UP...ON EARTH...
AND WHEN THE Lord Returns to EARTH...
He shall BRING WITH HIM..."THEIR REWARD"....(their Saved souls and Quickened Spirits).
.
Continued.

Taken
 

Taken

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Earburner ~ Continued:

Earburner SAID:
Given the scriptures above, that prove otherwise of your belief system, I am in the place to say that you are following "strong delusion to believe a lie".

"A" Scripture DOES NOT "PROVE" YOUR Understanding.

It is Obvious from the get go, of your own words, YOU do not UNDERSTAND the Difference Between Tribulation and THEE GREAT Tribulation.

It is Obvous from the get go, you Concern yourself with Christians ALONE...WITHOUT Consideration of Gods ISRAEL.

You appear WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING...
NOTHING can be SAVED or QUICKENED...
WITHOUT the SOMETHING FIRST "BECOMING" DEAD!

MEN...."IN" Christ;
Believe "IN" God.
Believe "IN" Jesus thee CHRIST MESSIAH.
HAVE BECOME (bodily) "DEAD", crucified WITH Chirst.
Have BECOME (soul) "SAV-ED".
Have BECOME (spirit) "QUICKENED"...

THRE IS NOTHING More IN THEM to BE CHANGED....OR SUFFER IN the Great Tribulation....until something else is Changed.

ISRAEL However....of those STILL ALIVE...
Obviously ARE NOT DEAD....
Obviously ARE NOT IN BELIEF IN Jesus their Christ Messiah.
Obviously Believe IN God.

IF YOU READ Revelations...THEY ARE NOT SUBJECT TO "Gods" WRATH, for Disbelief IN God.

THEY are Subject to "THE LAMBS WRATH"
FOR Having DISBELIEF IN JESUS, as their Christ Messiah!!!

ONCE "THEY" Believe IN JESUS, Their Christ Messiah....THEY become (soul) Saved...THEY become (spirit) Quickened....and THEY fulfill their Appointment with Death....VIA their BODY BEING PHYSICALLY KILLED.


Rev.6
  1. [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

Very, very few have the correct understanding
of "the 70 weeks" in Daniel.

MANY MANY LACK Understanding, According to God.

Scripture IS ALL TRUTHFUL "KNOWLEDGE".

Understanding the "KNOWLEDGE" is Via multiple WAYS:
Teachers,
Preachers,
Philosophers,
AND the Last who should BE FIRST...
IS Directly From God Himself to an Individual.

A man WHO has BECOME:
"Forgiven, Bodily Crucified, (WITH Christ), Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened....
SHALL BE Descending From the Clouds WITH thee Lord WHEN He Returns TO EARTH.

Others; Forgiven, Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened, Physically Dead, DURING the Tribulation; SHALL BE RISEN UP ON EARTH, AND BE ON EARTH, Looking UP, OBSERVING THE Lord Descending FROM the Clouds TO THE EARTH.

Others; NOT Forgiven, Not Soul Saved, Not Spirit Quickened, Physically Alive and MARKED in Allegience TO the Anti-Christ, SHALL SEE the Lord Coming to DESTROY THEM.....AND wail and cry IN ANGER Against the Lord.

Christians Widely preach AS IF the "NT" is ALL about them. It isn't. Much of the NT is exclusively ABOUT "Gods People" ISRAEL.

Applicability OF the Knowledge IS KEY.
Understanding Gods Knowledge, ONLY Comes From God Himself.

Glory To God,
Taken
 

Keraz

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I'm not referring to people who will be on the earth but to those who are raptured near the end of history. The rapture is based on the verb
harpazw which means to 'snatch or take away ... in such a way that no resistance is offered' in 1 Thess 4:17 (Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon 1957:108).

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thess 4:15-17 NLT).​

I agree that people will live eternally but that does not exclude the rapture when the dead in Christ will be raptured (caught up) to meet the Lord in the air at his Second Coming. Oz
What you say, I do agree with.
Those Christians who remain when Jesus Returns, will be taken to where He is; Matthew 24:30-31, initially in the clouds, then to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10.
The thing that some want to add to that prophecy, is going to heaven. That idea is not correct and is an impossibility as Jesus says. John 3:13, +
This 'harparzo' is not a spiritual thing, but just a transportation from one earthy location to another. As Philip was; Acts 8:39
 
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Earburner

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According to Scripture (to which I agree)...

Those who "come OUT of the GREAT Tribulation" ARE Those who "are IN the GREAT Tribulation".

The "GREAT" Tribulation, is a Seven Year Time Period.
In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation", just as one also will never find:
"THE" Antichrist
"The" Rapture
"THE" Millennium
When one places the word "THE" in front of a topic, they suddenly make that topic to be a "doctrine of pivot", whereby other doctrines or topics must agree with it. However, if they don't, then the truthful interpretations of those other doctrines, must be shifted or changed, in order to be in line with that "doctrine of pivot".
It always boils down to this:
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.
 

Earburner

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BTW, anything of a 7 year "THE" Tribulation, whether Pre, Mid or Post is a LIE.
You all haven't learned how to interpret that prophecy of "70 weeks" in Daniel.
Here is a clue:
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
 

OzSpen

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In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation", just as one also will never find:
"THE" Antichrist
"The" Rapture
"THE" Millennium
When one places the word "THE" in front of a topic, they suddenly make that topic to be a "doctrine of pivot", whereby other doctrines or topics must agree with it. However, if they don't, then the truthful interpretations of those other doctrines, must be shifted or changed, in order to be in line with that "doctrine of pivot".
It always boils down to this:
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

What is the meaning of ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης in Revelation 7:14?
 

Enoch111

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In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation"
Had the Greek text -- which says "the tribulation the great" -- been translated precisely we would have found "the Great Tribulation" in the KJV. Quibbling over words does not change Bible truth.
 
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Taken

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To that, I say: No one has been given a soul, as if it was waiting around with God until one is born into flesh. That one single concept has corrupted the church immensely. In the KJV- Gen. 2:7, Adam "became a living soul", because God breathed Oxygenated air into him. See also Gen. 7:22.
.

God IS Spirit.
God HAS a Spirit.

Man IS a Body.
Man IS a Soul.
Man HAS a Soul.

God HAS a Soul.

No, God did not BREATH "oxygenated air" into a man.

God BREATHED "HIS" Breath into the man.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Earburner

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Had the Greek text -- which says "the tribulation the great" -- been translated precisely we would have found "the Great Tribulation" in the KJV. Quibbling over words does not change Bible truth.
Scripture please.
 

Earburner

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God IS Spirit.
God HAS a Spirit.

Man IS a Body.
Man IS a Soul.
Man HAS a Soul.

God HAS a Soul.

No, God did not BREATH "oxygenated air" into a man.

God BREATHED "HIS" Breath into the man.

Glory to God,
Taken
Making up stuff as you go along, is not good!

Did Moses sign up for H/S Chemistry?
Nope! He knew nothing of what Oxygen was!

Compare Gen. 2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
WITH:
Gen. 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
 

Enoch111

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Scripture please.
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, (the tribulation, the great) καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου. (Rev 7:14)