Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[Dave L]

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is obvious in the case of Oneness who think like pharisees when it comes to God.

 

[farouk]

I think that I would say that the Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father but the same Person.

Not Scriptural.

 

[justbyfaith]

GINOLJC, to all

correct, it can be understood. the scripture say so. Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

for there is no excuse not to know. God is a "ANOTHER" G243 allos of himself in flesh. it's just that easy.

and yes, the Holy Ghost is the only true God, JESUS. for the titles of Father, and the title Son are just that .... titles, not persons.

if one just examine the scriptures, the diversity of God in flesh is the answer to the terms Fasther, and Son who is the Holy Ghost in and diversified in flesh.

as before, all of the trinity so called trinity scriptures that was posted was reprove by the scriptures with understanding.

PICJAG.

I think that we see the same thing from different angles.

 

[Dave L]

I think that we see the same thing from different angles.

You only see what the pharisees believed when it comes to God.

 

[farouk]

I think that we see the same thing from different angles.

God in Three Persons is clear from the witness of Scripture.

John 14.26: "the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send".

Galatians 4.6: "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts".

Clearly the witness of Scripture is that the Spirit is a distinct Person, Who is united in His activities with the Father and the Son.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not Scriptural.

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

The Father is that Spirit (John 4:23-24).

The Holy Ghost is that Spirit (John 7:39).

They are the same Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

But they are distinct in that the Father in His pre-incarnate form dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15); then descended, taking on the nature of humanity (Isaiah 9:6); and then released Himself back into eternity (Luke 23:46) to dwell outside of time as a distinct Person from the 1st Person of the Trinity. Nevertheless He is the same Person.

 

[farouk]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

The Father is that Spirit (John 4:23-24).

The Holy Ghost is that Spirit (John 7:39).

They are the same Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

But they are distinct in that the Father in His pre-incarnate form dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15); then descended, taking on the nature of humanity (Isaiah 9:6); and then released Himself back into eternity (Luke 23:46) to dwell outside of time as a distinct Person from the 1st Person of the Trinity. Nevertheless He is the same Person.

Personality and deity are distinct in Scripture; Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overwhelmingly present in Scripture, especially the New Testament.

You don't have to answer, but I'm curious as to your church background; this might help explain where you are coming from.

 

[justbyfaith]

You only see what the pharisees believed when it comes to God.

That the best you got? You fall back on bearing briers and thorns when you don't have a leg to stand on.

God in Three Persons is clear from the witness of Scripture.

John 14.26: "the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send".

Galatians 4.6: "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts".

Clearly the witness of Scripture is that the Spirit is a distinct Person, Who is united in His activities with the Father and the Son.

I'm not in disagreement with any of the above.

I would say, however, that you should consider 1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life".

For this to be, the Son would have to be a Spirit dwelling within us.

Nevertheless, it should be clear that it is the spirit of antichrist that will not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Consider that the Spirit of Jesus is the Son therefore.

Is the Holy Ghost a separate or distinct Person from the Spirit of Jesus?

How many Spirits are there?

My Bible tells me there is only One (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[Dave L]

That the best you got? You fall back on bearing briers and thorns when you don't have a leg to stand on.



I'm not in disagreement with any of the above.

I would say, however, that you should consider 1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life".

For this to be, the Son would have to be a Spirit dwelling within us.

Nevertheless, it should be clear that it is the spirit of antichrist that will not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Consider that the Spirit of Jesus is the Son therefore.

Is the Holy Ghost a separate or distinct Person from the Spirit of Jesus?

How many Spirits are there?

My Bible tells me there is only One (Ephesians 4:4).

If the pharisees were wrong about God, and believe as you do about him being one person, how can you be right?

 

[justbyfaith]

Personality and deity are distinct in Scripture; Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overwhelmingly present in Scripture, especially the New Testament.

You don't have to answer, but I'm curious as to your church background; this might help explain where you are coming from.

I have been baptized in Jesus' name four times; but have not spent much time inside of Oneness Pentecostal churches. I currently am going to Calvary Chapel. I believe that my doctrine concerning the Trinity is developed out of having received the Holy Ghost as a result of the promise in Acts 2:38-39.

 

[farouk]

That the best you got? You fall back on bearing briers and thorns when you don't have a leg to stand on.



I'm not in disagreement with any of the above.

I would say, however, that you should consider 1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life".

For this to be, the Son would have to be a Spirit dwelling within us.

Nevertheless, it should be clear that it is the spirit of antichrist that will not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Consider that the Spirit of Jesus is the Son therefore.

Is the Holy Ghost a separate or distinct Person from the Spirit of Jesus?

How many Spirits are there?

My Bible tells me there is only One (Ephesians 4:4).

I cannot accept that all the references in the New Testament to the Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - are supposedly 'briers and thorns'.

Maybe this discussion won't be profitable for much longer.

 

[justbyfaith]

If the pharisees were wrong about God, and believe as you do about him being one person, how can you be right?

You are assuming that the Pharisees were wrong in everything that they believed in about the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I cannot accept that all the references in the New Testament to the Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - are supposedly 'briers and thorns'.

I was referring to his labeling of me as a Pharisee.

 

[Dave L]

You are assuming that the Pharisees were wrong in everything that they believed in about the Lord.

If they were right about the one person concept, they would not have killed Jesus for making himself God.

 

[justbyfaith]

If they were right about the one person concept, they would not have killed Jesus for making himself God.

All they had to do was remember what is written in their own scriptures, that the son that was given would be given the name the everlasting Father among other things (Isaiah 9:6).

 

[Dave L]

All they had to do was remember what is written in their own scriptures, that the son that was given would be given the name the everlasting Father among other things (Isaiah 9:6).

They also killed Jesus for making himself equal to God = two persons.

 

[101G]

They also killed Jesus for making himself equal to God = two persons.

ERROR NOT "EQUAL TO", no, get it right, "EQUAL WITH". meaning the SAME person, supportive scripture, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

is this two persons, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

is this two persons? A. God "and" Father.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

They also killed Jesus for making himself equal to God = two persons.

How did He make Himself equal to God? He identified God as being His Father, which identified Him as the Son.

The Son shall have the name applied to Him the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).

I do find that the Father and the Son are distinct.

The Father (1st Person of the Trinity) inhabiteth eternity, the Son (2nd Person) is the Father as He descended and became a Man, taking on the added nature of humanity.

 

[tigger 2]

How did He make Himself equal to God? He identified God as being His Father, which identified Him as the Son.

The Son shall have the name applied to Him the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).

I do find that the Father and the Son are distinct.

The Father (1st Person of the Trinity) inhabiteth eternity, the Son (2nd Person) is the Father as He descended and became a Man, taking on the added nature of humanity.

.....................................

The Son has never been the Father. He prayed to the Father while on earth and ascended to the Father after resurrection.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

Isaiah 9:6 is nearly always misinterpreted and mistranslated in trinitarian-translated Bibles.

One way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as with "Elijah," "Abijah," etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:

"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, ‘Wonderful, Counselor [IS] The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ The two letter word ‘is,’ is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather, the ‘is’ is understood.” - https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/04/prophecy-about-jesus-mighty-god.html

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And,

‘Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace’ (Hertz 1968).

Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

(a)"The Mighty God is planning grace;
(b)The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism ("Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz" means (a)"quick to the plunder; (b) swift to the spoil" - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism:
(a)"For unto us a child is born; (b)unto us a son is given." It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God (as so many other scriptures also acknowledge).

Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

 

[Dave L]

How did He make Himself equal to God? He identified God as being His Father, which identified Him as the Son.

The Son shall have the name applied to Him the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).

I do find that the Father and the Son are distinct.

The Father (1st Person of the Trinity) inhabiteth eternity, the Son (2nd Person) is the Father as He descended and became a Man, taking on the added nature of humanity.

Father also means Teacher which Christ the man certainly was.