Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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101G

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this is true, many don't know or understand what "begotten" identify, nor means. it's only a method and not the means. example,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel". BEGOTTEN here is the method and the means is the gospel.

knowing that, Jesus is never begotten....... let that soke in. watch this.......the Lord/Saviour is born, but not JESUS.... :D the flesh he came in was born...... :rolleyes: (smile)...lol.
the Son of man, (son) is Given, NOT BORN. the son of God (child) is BORN. (see Isaiah 9:6).

if anyone thinks that Jesus was Born, Naturally, then they are still carnal in mind. the Lord Jesus "took part" in our humanity, not a partaker of it, big difference.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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this is true, many don't know or understand what "begotten" identify, nor means. it's only a method and not the means. example,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel". BEGOTTEN here is the method and the means is the gospel.

knowing that, Jesus is never begotten....... let that soke in. watch this.......the Lord/Saviour is born, but not JESUS.... :D the flesh he came in was born...... :rolleyes: (smile)...lol.
the Son of man, (son) is Given, NOT BORN. the son of God (child) is BORN. (see Isaiah 9:6).

if anyone thinks that Jesus was Born, Naturally, then they are still carnal in mind. the Lord Jesus "took part" in our humanity, not a partaker of it, big difference.

PICJAG.

Heb 2:14, Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Here, Jesus taking part in flesh and blood is spoken of in the same breath as the children being partakers of flesh and blood; and these are in fact speaking of the same type of thing. When it says that Jesus "took part" in flesh and blood, it is saying in the same sense that the children were partakers of flesh and blood, iow, Jesus was a partaker in flesh and blood; but to say it that way would not fit the language that it is being relayed in.
 

justbyfaith

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@justbyfaith, @Enoch111, or any who would like to answer. We would like to ask a question. which was asked, but not answered. well, two questions for right now.

#1. Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn".

the "I", and the "me", here is the "LORD", (when reading the afore verses). Question, "When was the LORD, who is the almighty, pierced?". take your time in answering.

#2. Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".

this is without a doubt, "the voice of one that crieth in the wilderness", is John the Baptist. but Isaiah said that he Prepare ye the way of the LORD" that's LORD in all caps as in the almighty. now this,

Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Matthew 3:2 "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:3 "For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight".

Question, "How did the "LORD", all caps, the almighty, in Isaiah 40:3 became the "Lord" in Matthew 3:3. dose not the doctrine of the trinity states the Father/LORD, is not the Son/Lord?". so did Isaiah lied? God forbid. but remember this before you answer, 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

so God inspired Isaiah to write chapter 40:3. so did God himself lied to Isaiah? no, God forbid. we'll help you out, is the Lord in Matthews 3:3 the same person in Isaiah 40:3 only in flesh and blood, and in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state, maybe? ........ :D but we'll let you answer that.

PICJAG.
Of course I am in agreement with this teaching; and find it to be edifying.
 

justbyfaith

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The LIFE is in the BLOOD. man "BECAME", became, became, a living SOUL when, when God blew the breath of LIFE in him, and the Life is now in the blood. it is the BREATH of Life that makes a living SOUL.

we understand if it's used metaphorically because the soul is the result of the blood. but be informed the Soul is not the blood. example, Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

now this, Genesis 4:10 "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

these are the voice of "DEAD" Souls metaphorically speaking, not "LIVING" souls.

you want to try again?

PICJAG.
There is oxygen (even breath/soul) located in the blood. This substantiates my opinion that the soul, while it does not = the blood, that it resides within the blood.
 

101G

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Heb 2:14, Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Here, Jesus taking part in flesh and blood is spoken of in the same breath as the children being partakers of flesh and blood; and these are in fact speaking of the same type of thing. When it says that Jesus "took part" in flesh and blood, it is saying in the same sense that the children were partakers of flesh and blood, iow, Jesus was a partaker in flesh and blood; but to say it that way would not fit the language that it is being relayed in.
first thanks for the reply, second, "took part" is not the same as "partak". ok, if our Lord was a partaker in our humanity , who's his natural biological father? book chapter and verse please.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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There is oxygen (even breath/soul) located in the blood. This substantiates my opinion that the soul, while it does not = the blood, that it resides within the blood.
who told you that? if bible then book chapter and verse please.

for the Life of the flesh, of the flesh, or the flesh, is in the blood, that's natural life in the flesh. but your SOUL is NOT YOUR BODY. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

understand something, your soul and your spirit is God's. supportive scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein". so our spirit is given unto us. NOW THE "SOUL".
Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Ooop's seems like we're left with NOTHING, except a body which is dead. for without the spirit the body is dead. for the first man God made was a dead man. it was only until he, GOD, breathed the breath of life into him did he live. so our LIFE is not even ours. when you come to think about it where is anything for us to boast about?. NOTHING.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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first thanks for the reply, second, "took part" is not the same as "partak". ok, if our Lord was a partaker in our humanity , who's his natural biological father? book chapter and verse please.

PICJAG.
His humanity came from His mother's side.
 

101G

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His humanity came from His mother's side.
well, well, well, now the light bulbs are coming on now. but are you sure of that? Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me". hast thou? hast thou, hast thou prepared me. Mary was only a surrogate mother. meaning only a birth vessel.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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I believe we must agree to disagree.

For I believe that the Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the fallopian tubes of the virgin Mary and that the zygote that came into being was the Son of God and the Son of man from conception.
 

101G

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I believe we must agree to disagree.

For I believe that the Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the fallopian tubes of the virgin Mary and that the zygote that came into being was the Son of God and the Son of man from conception.
"I believe we must agree to disagree" that's a trick from the devil. if one agree to disagree, you're still in disagreement. "how can two walk together except they agree".
the only answer to the Godhead is the "EQUAL SHARE", there is no getting around it. it's not a mystery. God "diversified" himself in flesh. that's it. no bells no, whistles, no drum roll, plain and simple, and bibical. if people can just get around that separation -vs- Sharing, then the bible will open up.

now as for the virginity of Mary in birthing that flesh of the Lord, the scriptures are clear. and the scriptures with the Holy Ghost will teach us. I go by the written word.

as God almighty said, "come let us reason together". you said in post #1563, "Of course I am in agreement with this teaching; and find it to be edifying". ok, let's just zero in on what you cannot accept, or misunderstand and maybe we can work it out BY THE SCRIPTURES in the HOLY GHOST TEACHING. that's if you're willing.

PICJAG
 

justbyfaith

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I believe I've made it clear any disagreements that I may have.

Now to say, "let us agree to disagree' simply means that we are probably not going to convince the other of our pov, so let's just drop it. It's a non-essential anyway; unless your estimation of the Holy Spirit dying translates into the blasphemy against the Spirit.

You are not going to convince me of your pov and I am not going to convince you of my pov unless one of us can find scripture to back up our pov...but I have read my entire Bible through countless times and I have never seen any scripture that substantiates your pov...and I have already shown you scripture that substantiates mine but you appear to have rejected it.

So then, we appear to be at an impasse.
 

tigger 2

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Of course I am in agreement with this teaching; and find it to be edifying.

Zechariah 12:10

Jehovah God speaks:

"...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son" - Zech. 12:10, KJV; cf. NKJV, NIV, NASB, NEB, REB, ASV, AB, KJIIV, ETRV, Douay, Beck, Rotherham, Lamsa.

This is interpreted by many trinitarians as meaning that Jehovah is Jesus since Jesus was "pierced" by the Jews.

Unfortunately for this trinitarian interpretation even many trinitarian translations disagree:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

Even the context tells us that the latter rendering is the correct one. Notice that after saying that they will look upon me (or him) God continues with "they shall mourn for HIM"! Notice how the KJV (and those following its tradition) contradicts itself here. The "me" in the first half simply does not agree with the "him" of the second half. Since there has never been any question about the accuracy of the word "him" in the second half, the disputed word of the first half (which has manuscript evidence for both renderings) must also properly be rendered as "him" (or "the one").

The testimony of the first Christian writers to come after the NT writers (the `Ante-Nicene Fathers') confirms the non-trinitarian translation of Zechariah 12:10 ("him"). Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (repeatedly) rendered Zech. 12:10 as "him whom they pierced"! This is specially significant because trinitarian scholars and historians claim these particular early Christians (including Origen who doesn't quote Zech. 12:10 at all in his existing writings) are the very ones who actually began the development of the trinity doctrine for Christendom! If any of the earliest Christian writers, then, would use a trinitarian interpretation here, it would certainly be these three. Since they do not do so, it must mean that the source for the `look upon me' translation originated even later than the time of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (early 3rd century A.D.)!

Included in those very early Christian writers' quotes of Zech. 12:10 is Justin Martyr I. Apol., i. 77, who also quotes it as it is found in John.

The OT Greek Septuagint uses "me" (in existing copies, at least - 4th century A.D. and later), but it is significantly different from the Hebrew text: "They shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son]." - Zech. 12:10, Septuagint, Zondervan, 1976 printing. In other words, (1) they will look upon God whom they have mocked [not "pierced"] as their judgment arrives and (2) they will mourn Christ. The two are not the same person here, nor the same God!

According to The Expositor's Greek Testament, : John's translation of Zech. 12:10 is the correct one. "The same rendering is adopted in the Greek [OT] versions of Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus" - vol. 1, p. 860.

"The [Hebrew] text of Zech. 12:10 is corrupt. The [Greek] LXX text reads: ... (`they shall look upon me whom they have treated spitefully') .... The text in [Jn 19:37] does not follow the LXX; but it has also avoided the impossible [`me'] of the Hebrew text." - p. 195, John 2, Ernst Haenchen, Fortress Press, 1984.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar says:


"138. The relative Pronoun.... (2) Not depending on a governing substantive, but itself expressing a substantial idea. Clauses introduced in this way may be called independent relative clauses. This use of [asher] is generally rendered in English by `he who,' `he whom,' &c.... In Z[echariah] 12:10 also, instead of the unintelligible [`elai eth asher,' `to me whom'], we should probably read [`el asher,' `to him whom'], and refer this passage to this class [of 'independent relative clauses']." - pp. 444, 445, 446.

And noted trinitarian scholar Dr. F. F. Bruce tells us:

"But in John 19:37 the piercing is interpreted of the piercing of Christ's side with a soldier's lance after His death on the cross, and here Zech. 12:10 is expressly quoted: `And again another scripture says, "They shall look on him whom they have pierced".' It is a reasonable inference that this is the form in which the Evangelist knew the passage, and, indeed, the reading `him' instead of `me' appears in a few Hebrew manuscripts. The R.S.V. thus has New Testament authority for its rendering of Zech.12:10 , `And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.' Why then is the R.S.V. criticized for conforming to the New Testament here? Because, if the reading `me' be retained, the reference would be to the speaker, who is God, and in view of the application of the passage in the New Testament, there are some who see here an anticipation of the Christian doctrine of our Lord's divine nature. The reading `me' is certainly quite early, for it appears in the Septuagint (which otherwise misses the point of the passage); but the New Testament seems to attach no significance to Zech. 12:10 as providing evidence for the deity of Christ.... And, whoever the pierced one is, the fact that he is referred to elsewhere in the verse in the third person (`they shall mourn for him....and weep bitterly over him') suggests that he is Yahweh's representative (probably the anointed king), in whose piercing Yahweh Himself is [figuratively] pierced." - History of the Bible in English, pages 199, 200, Lutterworth Press, 1979, third edition. [Emphasis mine – RDB]

The JPS translation in Tanakh (NJV) also reveals that Zech 12:10 is not translated correctly in some Trinitarian translations such as the KJV.
The NJV (New Jewish Version or Tanakh published by the Jewish Publication Society) is highly praised for its accuracy by noted trinitarian Bible scholars Sakae Kubo and Walter F. Specht in their popular book So Many Versions? which analyzes and critiques modern Bibles:

"The NJV is a monument to careful scholarship .... It ranks as one of the best translations of the Hebrew Bible [the Old Testament] available." - p. 143, SMV, Zondervan Publ.

A footnote in the Tanakh says that the Hebrew sometimes rendered "when they look upon" is uncertain. Although it also uses the pronoun "me," it renders Zech 12:10,

"they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born." - Jewish Publication Society, 1985.

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!
 

Enoch111

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Unfortunately for this trinitarian interpretation even many trinitarian translations disagree...
Let them disagree all they want. There are dozens of Scriptures which clearly present the Trinity. BTW scholars are not to be trusted when they undermine fundamental Bible doctrines -- the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity.
 
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justbyfaith

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I'm kjv-superior concerning Bible translations; and therefore I will take this rendering:

Zec 12:10, And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
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justbyfaith

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"I believe we must agree to disagree" that's a trick from the devil. if one agree to disagree, you're still in disagreement. "how can two walk together except they agree".
the only answer to the Godhead is the "EQUAL SHARE", there is no getting around it. it's not a mystery. God "diversified" himself in flesh. that's it. no bells no, whistles, no drum roll, plain and simple, and bibical. if people can just get around that separation -vs- Sharing, then the bible will open up.

now as for the virginity of Mary in birthing that flesh of the Lord, the scriptures are clear. and the scriptures with the Holy Ghost will teach us. I go by the written word.

as God almighty said, "come let us reason together". you said in post #1563, "Of course I am in agreement with this teaching; and find it to be edifying". ok, let's just zero in on what you cannot accept, or misunderstand and maybe we can work it out BY THE SCRIPTURES in the HOLY GHOST TEACHING. that's if you're willing.

PICJAG

I believe I've made it clear any disagreements that I may have.

Now to say, "let us agree to disagree' simply means that we are probably not going to convince the other of our pov, so let's just drop it. It's a non-essential anyway; unless your estimation of the Holy Spirit dying translates into the blasphemy against the Spirit.

You are not going to convince me of your pov and I am not going to convince you of my pov unless one of us can find scripture to back up our pov...but I have read my entire Bible through countless times and I have never seen any scripture that substantiates your pov...and I have already shown you scripture that substantiates mine but you appear to have rejected it.

So then, we appear to be at an impasse.

I am willing to consider your pov, if you can show me scripture that backs it up.

But I would also ask you to take a long hard look at Isaiah 53:10 as it applies to 2 Corinthians 5:21; and also respond to me in light of how you see these scriptures existing in my mind.

To @101G.
 
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OzSpen

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It is the responsibility of the Berean to check things by the scriptures. If you are truly a Berean, then you will do this concerning my teaching.

I am not going to do your homework for you.

Because to do what you require of me would take extensive posting.

Bereans check against the Scripture, not against the Creeds.

upload_2019-7-21_13-21-57.jpeg
 

justbyfaith

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Bereans check against the Scripture, not against the Creeds.

View attachment 6834
Plenty of scripture in the first four posts of this thread.

Likewise,
7425_4266f72eb3ee15119286fc420959fe8f.jpeg
 

OzSpen

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I also take issue with this statement:



I contend that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, Luke 1:35;

The Father descended to become the Son (Isaiah 9:6),
then rose again to fill all things,
even ascending to again inhabit eternity (Ephesians 4:10).

Whereas he did not vacate eternity when He descended.

The difference between Jesus being created and the only-begotten is what makes the God-man Jesus unique - the one and only.

For an explanation, see: What does it mean that Jesus is God's only begotten son? (Got Questions)
 

justbyfaith

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The difference between Jesus being created and the only-begotten is what makes the God-man Jesus unique - the one and only.

For an explanation, see: What does it mean that Jesus is God's only begotten son? (Got Questions)

Back already?
.
.
.
What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God?

It means that He is the Father (Isaiah 9:6) in Spirit (John 14:7-11).

Now I know that a part of my preaching style is to disperse knowledge, while at the same time concealing it (Proverbs 15:7, Proverbs 12:23).

Therefore, you will only benefit if you do the research.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. @tigger 2, First thanks for the imput, but it's of no value. you said, "...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son" - Zech. 12:10, KJV; cf. NKJV, NIV, NASB, NEB, REB, ASV, AB, KJIIV, ETRV, Douay, Beck, Rotherham, Lamsa.

This is interpreted by many trinitarians as meaning that Jehovah is Jesus since Jesus was "pierced" by the Jews
".

well in the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION by the Jehovah witness themselves say it. and here's their proof. in Revelation 1:1 an angel was sent to John. and in Revelation 22:6 the angel tells John who sent him. now the NWT. verse 6 He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place". clearly the NWT states "Jehovah" sent the angel. read it again if not sure. but the One who sent the angel answers in verse 16, still using the NWT bible. verse 16 “I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star".
the NWT shot itself in the foot. in verse 6 is said, "Jehovah" sent the angel, then just a few verses, in the same chapter states, "I, Jesus" sent the angel. now either the NWT bible is lying, or JESUS is the one who inspired the prophet, the one whom they call Jehovah. either way they go it's destruction.

so according to the JW bible now, they got JESUS as their Jehovah, or their bible lied.

now to twll the truth it is JESUS who did inspire the prophets. KJV, support. 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow".
now, the KJV is clear, yes it was the LORD, his OWN ARM in Flesh.

PICJAG