"True" Israel?

[brightfame52]

The Church is Israel, the peculiar people of God Writing to the Gentile Church to perhaps its Gentile Pastor Titus, Paul writes Tit 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Now the proud jews of Christs day considered themselves this special people, probably from scriptures like Ex 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Ps 135:4

For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

This peculiar distinction however was never to Israel National based upon their ethncity, but in the midst of the physical nation was a very small remnant who had a God given Faith in Christ, which was His Church, and they were Israel, and thats were the peculiar people would proceed from.

It [Their pecularity] lied not in their ethnic racial heritage, but in their spiritual God given Faith in Christ, the coming seed of the woman, who was also according to Mystery, the Head of His Body the Church, so their being that special people lied in His redeeming work for the Church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[brightfame52]

See Just as Israel the ethnic jews nationally were the posterity of Father Abraham, Jesus even admitted that Jn 8:37

I know that ye are Abraham's seed[posterity]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

in like manner the Church, both jew and gentile believers who belong to Christ, are Israel Abrahams Spiritual seed [posterity] Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You see that ? Abraham had two different seeds, his seed in Jn 8:37 is different from his seed in Gal 3:29 15

 

[PinSeeker]

Thanks, BF52.

One clarification, though: Abraham does not have "two different seeds," but rather one seed ~ all those in Christ, whether of Old Testament times or New Testament times ~ and that one seed is now one regardless of ethnicity. We are all one in Christ Jesus, children of the promise after Isaac in Paul's terms in Romans 9, true Jews of God, circumcised of heart by the Spirit in Paul's terms in Romans 2:28-29, and yes, Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise in Paul's terms in Galatians 3, which you cite above. No, Abraham did not have two different seeds. Abraham himself was not Jewish; he was called by God (Genesis 12:1-3), and left his homeland ~ Ur, which is in present-day southern Iraq. But he did, in that instant, become the progenitor of God's Israel. By faith, as we see in Hebrews 11:8-10... he was saved exactly the same was as you and I and others who are now in Christ were.

What might be helpful for folks is to understand the two great covenants. The first was the Covenant of Works made with Adam, of which Adam was the mediator, in Genesis 2. The second was the Covenant of Grace that was made by God with Adam (and all of humanity) when Adam failed and fell in Genesis 3,. Christ, the Mediator of this Covenant of Grace, was promised in Genesis 3:15.

In view of this, when we talk about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, these are both referring to this Covenant of Grace, which, again, was made by God in Genesis 3:15, with Christ ~ Who would not fail and has succeeded through His fulfilling of the Law and his death on the cross and His resurrection ~ as the Mediator. And this is not to be understood in the sense that there are "two Covenants of Grace" but that there are two dispensations of the one Covenant of Grace, the Old before Christ came, in which those in Christ were looking forward (in faith) to His coming, and the New after Christ came, in which we are now looking back (in faith) on His finished work of redemption, but in either case walking by faith, which itself is the gift of God, His assurance and conviction of things not seen and hoped for (Hebrews 11:1). So these two dispensations are one in substance... Old or New, the effect is the same.

More could be said on this, but I'll leave it at that at least for now. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks, BF52.

One clarification, though: Abraham does not have "two different seeds," but rather one seed ~ all those in Christ, whether of Old Testament times or New Testament times ~ and that one seed is now one regardless of ethnicity

Hi, but I would have to differ, Yes Abraham had two different sets of children, those by biological descendt as these was Jn 8:33,37

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Then Abrahams seed via Christ which is a spiritual people of Faith Gal 3:7,16,28-29

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[brightfame52]

What might be helpful for folks is to understand the two great covenants. The first was the Covenant of Works made with Adam, of which Adam was the mediator, in Genesis 2. The second was the Covenant of Grace that was made by God with Adam (and all of humanity) when Adam failed and fell in Genesis 3,. Christ, the Mediator of this Covenant of Grace, was promised in Genesis 3:15.

This sounds confusing, I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works, and the Covenant of Grace was with Christ b4 the foundation of the world, or its called the Everlasting Covenant. But no Covenant of Grace was ever made with Adam. But this is a different discussion

 

[PinSeeker]

Hi, but I would have to differ...

Okay. <smile> Yeah, no problem...

Yes Abraham had two different sets of children, those by biological descendt as these was Jn 8:33,37

Sure, I agree. But, to put it very succinctly, the biological is really not relevant to this conversation, just as physical Israel is not really relevant when we're talking about God's Israel. That's not to say the biological descendants of Abraham "aren't important" or that the physical nation-state of Israel is "not important."

Then Abrahams seed via Christ which is a spiritual people of Faith...

Sure, agree, as I said. Abraham's true seed through Isaac and the promise. Yes. Always were, are, and always will be.

This sounds confusing...

I can understand how and why at first it may. But the Old and New Covenant are not ~ not ~ synonymous with the Old and New Testaments.

I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works...

He was. No Christian who came after Him (and Eve, the mother of the all living) ever was or ever will be.

...the Covenant of Grace was with Christ b4 the foundation of the world...

No, we who are in Christ were chosen before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1, and predestined to be conformed to Christ. But the Covenant of Grace was made with Adam, with Christ as the Mediator, after the Fall in Genesis 3.

or its called the Everlasting Covenant.

Christ is the full manifestation of the everlasting Covenant.

But no Covenant of Grace was ever made with Adam.

Well, I agree in the sense that the Covenant of Grace was not made with Adam in the way it was later administered to Israel and the church, but what God says to Adam and Eve in the latter half of Genesis 3 is covenant language ~ and really to all of Adam's progeny ~ and it is veiled, but He promises ~ this is what a covenant is, a promise, an agreement between two parties with obligations on both parties of the covenant ~ to make everything right again through His Son in Genesis 3:15. This is the Covenant of Grace. Again, it was dispensed in a different way... through different means... to God's people before Christ came and was crucified and resurrected, but is still the same in essence now... and always will be: Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

But this is a different discussion

Suit yourself. Grace and peace to you!

 

[brightfame52]

But the Covenant of Grace was made with Adam, with Christ as the Mediator, after the Fall in Genesis 3.

No it was made known to Adam following the fall, it had been confirmed in Christ before the world began as with Abraham Gal 3:17

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Christ is the full manifestation of the everlasting Covenant.

He was its surety from everlasting Heb 7:22

Well, I agree in the sense that the Covenant of Grace was not made with Adam in the way it was later administered to Israel and the church, but what God says to Adam and Eve in the latter half of Genesis 3 is covenant language ~ and really to all of Adam's progeny ~ and it is veiled, but He promises ~ this is what a covenant is, a promise, an agreement between two parties with obligations on both parties of the covenant ~ to make everything right again through His Son in Genesis 3:15. This is the Covenant of Grace. Again, it was dispensed in a different way... through different means... to God's people before Christ came and was crucified and resurrected, but is still the same in essence now... and always will be: Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

Again it was made known to Adam, the actual covenant of Grace was made with Christ, David pictured, typed it here Ps 89:1-4

I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

It was made known to David as he expressed here 2 Samuel 23:5

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

God didn't really literally make a everlasting covenant with David, he was about to expire, fall asleep

 

[brightfame52]

Well, I agree in the sense that the Covenant of Grace was not made with Adam in the way it was later administered to Israel and the church, but what God says to Adam and Eve in the latter half of Genesis 3 is covenant language ~ and really to all of Adam's progeny

No it wasnt to all Adams progeny, but a chosen people from his progeny, the seed of Abraham Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Some of Adams progeny belonged to the seed of the serpent as pictured by cain 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Gen 3:14-15

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[PinSeeker]

<chuckles> At least, BF, you seem to somewhat understand now that the covenant of grace, um, came to be, shall we say... <smile> ... in Adam's day after his and Eve's fall in Genesis 3 and has been in effect ever since. That's good. <smile> And hopefully that salvation has never been, since then, different for anyone, that we are all, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, saved by the grace of God through/by faith, and this not our own doing but the gift of God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

<chuckles> At least, BF, you seem to somewhat understand now that the covenant of grace, um, came to be, shall we say... <smile> ... in Adam's day after his and Eve's fall in Genesis 3 and has been in effect ever since. That's good. <smile> And hopefully that salvation has never been, since then, different for anyone, that we are all, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, saved by the grace of God through/by faith, and this not our own doing but the gift of God.

Grace and peace to you.

You lack understanding friend. But again its a different discussion

 

[PinSeeker]

You lack understanding friend.

Right back atcha. Friend.

Funny thing is, you said above, "I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works," and that's true, that we agree on. But then you said, in the second half of that same sentence, "...the Covenant of Grace was with Christ," and that's not true... God did not make a covenant with Himself. He provided Himself ~ in the person of Jesus Christ ~ to fulfill the covenant obligations of Himself and man (God's elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world). Christ Jesus fulfilled both sides of the covenant: God's, of course, because He is God, and man's... who could never meet his covenantal obligation ("with man this is impossible"); it had to be done by God on our behalf... by His fulfilling the law and His work on the cross. And this is how He is our Mediator... He has succeeded in full. And God promised this in Genesis 3:15.

So again, the covenant of grace was with mankind, in the sense that God provided a Way for salvation. You're right, of course, that we who are among God's elect are no longer under the covenant of works but the covenant of grace... we no longer have to rely on ourselves, our works, our own righteousness, for salvation but on the one Work of Christ and His righteousness. That has been true ever since the events of Genesis 3.

...its a different discussion

Related, for sure, and closely, and really not so different. But no need to argue about that, of course.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

Right back atcha. Friend.

Funny thing is, you said above, "I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works," and that's true, that we agree on. But then you said, in the second half of that same sentence, "...the Covenant of Grace was with Christ," and that's not true... God did not make a covenant with Himself. He provided Himself ~ in the person of Jesus Christ ~ to fulfill the covenant obligations of Himself and man (God's elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world). Christ Jesus fulfilled both sides of the covenant: God's, of course, because He is God, and man's... who could never meet his covenantal obligation ("with man this is impossible"); it had to be done by God on our behalf... by His fulfilling the law and His work on the cross. And this is how He is our Mediator... He has succeeded in full. And God promised this in Genesis 3:15.

So again, the covenant of grace was with mankind, in the sense that God provided a Way for salvation. You're right, of course, that we who are among God's elect are no longer under the covenant of works but the covenant of grace... we no longer have to rely on ourselves, our works, our own righteousness, for salvation but on the one Work of Christ and His righteousness. That has been true ever since the events of Genesis 3.


Related, for sure, and closely, and really not so different. But no need to argue about that, of course.

Grace and peace to you.

You lack understanding friend.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Nope. Adam was expected by the Lord to walk by faith

You have no evidence from scripture showing God told Adam "meh, you don't have to believe what I say - I want to you earn your right standing with me by doing good stuff"

 

[brightfame52]

God had promised Israel Salvation, Justification Isa 45:17,25

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

However what nobody truly understood, is that this Israel wasn't the Physical nation, but an remnant according to the election of Grace, who were chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4, also what wasn't known and understood that this Israel would include in these Gospel promises Gentiles, that was a Mystery, something hidden. . The salvation of the Gentiles is in various parts of Scripture called a “mystery,” “hidden mystery,” the “mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,” “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs.” Eph.3:4-6;

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Gospel promise to Israel in Isa 45:17,25

Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The Hope of Glory is for Israel Isa 45:25

In the Lord[Christ] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The promises of Israel's everlasting Salvation, and Justification, was through Christ, hence the promises always said "in the Lord" Thats the Lord Christ !

Remember Peters opening sermon for the New Covenant era, who was he addressing ? Acts 2:36


Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And later we know Jesus sent Peter to preach it to the Gentiles.

They too partook in the Promises to Save Israel,

They also would be Justified in that Promise "In the Lord[Christ] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Rom 3:30


Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee[Christ] shall all nations be blessed. 15

 

[PinSeeker]

First of all, Dan, I didn't say what you quoted me as saying above. I quoted @brightfame52 as saying, "I believe Adam was under a Covenant of works." I did say he was correct in saying that, but that was what he/she said.

Now, to the rest of your post (and I'll mention @brightfame52 here, as this is relevant to the conversation we were having:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This is true (of course, it is Scripture), but this is only true after Adam's fall in Genesis 3, so, true now, and true since then. Adam could have obeyed, but did not, and thereby plunged himself and all of humanity and even creation itself into sin, as state of sinfulness... as Paul says in Romans 5:12, "...sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men..."

Adam was expected by the Lord to walk by faith

Well, let's put it this way... <smile> Adam's place in the original covenant of God was for him to be faithful ~ that's what a covenant is, a binding commitment between two parties (in this case between God and Adam) obliging them to deal faithfully with each other. Adam's part in the agreement was his obligation to walk in obedience, which is works-based, ergo, the covenant of works. And, of course, he failed. Thereafter, yes, it became, for all of mankind, impossible for man, in and of himself, to please God.

You have no evidence from scripture showing God told Adam "meh, you don't have to believe what I say - I want to you earn your right standing with me by doing good stuff"

Right, I would never claim that God said such a thing... <chuckles> But, in Genesis 2:15-17, Dan, we do in fact read that "(t)he Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'" To work it and keep it, and to walk in obedience to God... that was Adam's original obligation in dealing faithfully with God. Ergo, the covenant of works. In the events of Genesis 3, Adam failed, and... see above.

This is what necessitated the covenant of grace. Ever since, those who have been saved by God have been saved just as we are today, by grace through faith, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2:8.

One last thing: Faith... You know, I don't think you mean to do this. And so many do it without realizing it. But they make faith itself out to be a work of man. It is most assuredly not. This faith is given to us by God Himself, it is His "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) And that conviction is worked in us by the Spirit, Who convicts, as Jesus says of the Spirit in John 16:8-10... "He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer..." Faith is a gift of the Spirit, Dan, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:9... "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit... All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I did say he was correct in saying that, but that was what he/she said.

In other words you are in agreement with his statement.
That's like making someone's statement your own.

This is true (of course, it is Scripture), but this is only true after Adam's fall in Genesis 3

No, before Adam fell God's Word was just as true as it is after he fell.

You're not claiming that God desired to not have any pleasure by creating Adam are ya? Really?

Well, let's put it this way... <smile> Adam's place in the original covenant of God was for him to be faithful ~ that's what a covenant is, a binding commitment between two parties (in this case between God and Adam) obliging them to deal faithfully with each other. Adam's part in the agreement was his obligation to walk in obedience, which is works-based, ergo, the covenant of works. And, of course, he failed. Thereafter, yes, it became, for all of mankind, impossible for man, in and of himself, to please God.

Without faith it's impossible to please God.

Adam was to walk in obedience to the Lord by faith as in believing what God said

The fall came when Adam stopped believing what God said and started believing what satan said.

Adam stopped acting on God's Word and started acting on the devil's word instead and of course the devil's words were lies and caused Adam to disobey the Lord and be separated from God (spiritual death)

To work it and keep it, and to walk in obedience to God

Which has to be done in conjunction with believing what God says

Adam quit working for God and went to work for the devil when he turned away from believing what God said and started believing what the devil said.

Faith produces ACTION in that we starting thinking, speaking and acting according to what we believe

So Adam started believing what the devil said resulting in him thinking, speaking and acting according to what satan said instead of what God says.

This is why the Lord says in His Word that faith without works (action) is dead. Nobody believes and then does nothing.

We all think, speak and act according to what we believe - some after what God says (sowing to the Spirit causing them to reap life) - and some after what the devil says (sowing to the flesh causing them to reap separation from God which is what death is)

Those indoctrinated by so called reformed theology wouldn't understand as they have been falsely taught faith alone to them means mental assent which refers to the intellectual agreement with the truth of the Word of God, without allowing it to influence one's actions or life (fake "christians")

they make faith itself out to be a work of man.

No, that's a false understanding of what God's Word teaches.
Faith comes from the Lord, He gave us our Faith so it's HIS Faith!

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and
the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved
me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to
think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according
as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

John 6:28,29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him
whom he hath sent.

According to Jesus, walking in faith is one of the good works we have been called to

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus did say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER" (Matthew 7:21).

Jesus also said thru the Apostle James to "be ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and not
hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So faith is not just claiming we believe something, it's also acting like what we
believe is true which is what makes one's faith alive whether it be sowing to the
Spirit or sowing to the flesh. Adam sinned so he went from sowing to the Spirit to
sowing to the flesh and reaped corruption (Gal 6:7,8) as he stopped working for
God and went to work for the devil

All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills."

So do you think it's God's will that some Christians not be given His faith?

That would be saying He does not want some of His children to have the Holy Spirit.

 

[PinSeeker]

Without faith it's impossible to please God.

Since the Fall, and all the way up to now, yes. Of course.

Adam was to walk in obedience to the Lord by faith...

After the Fall, yes. The result of God-given faith ~ again, God's assurance of salvation ~ is good works. You're right, James says this, that if you have works but do not have this God-given faith, it is a dead faith; any faith apart from works is a dead faith, but for us Christians, we do good works because we have this faith, and we show that faith by our works... faith apart from works is useless (James 2:18-20). So, we agree on that. But yes, so, we are still required to do good works, which includes obedience, but because we have been given this faith, in our being born again of the Spirit, given the Holy Spirit Himself, and we are created for those good works by God, which means they are the natural result of our having been born again and our having been given this faith. So, Dan, our salvation no longer depends on our works, but on our having faith ~ so, by faith alone, which doesn't mean, as many suppose, that faith is all you need and works are not necessary, but that these good works, while absolutely necessary, depend first upon having been given this faith.

Adam's... oh, well-being <smile> ... good standing with God... depended on his works only, his obedience included, of course, and he failed. And now, we all would fail... would, if we were not born again and given this faith that we have, because without God's assurance ~ which is by His grace, not because of anything we have done, even believing or obeying ~ all our works, how ever many and how ever good they might be, would remain as filthy rags before God. You see?

The fall came when Adam stopped believing what God said and started believing what satan said.

Well, He disobeyed. Satan didn't tell Adam (or Eve) to eat from the forbidden tree. Eve was deceived, as Paul says, and Adam could have stepped in and stopped her, because he heard what God had told him in Genesis 2:17, but he did not. Why, we don't really know; all we do know is that he disobeyed God... and he didn't keep his wife from disobeying God. It really had nothing to do with belief or unbelief; he disobeyed God. We don't know what Adam was thinking, because nothing in Scripture ever says anything about him believing or not believing Satan, and in that scene in Genesis 3, he never says a word. We don't know.

Adam stopped acting on God's Word and started acting on the devil's word...

Well, we know that unbelievers do Satan's will. Was Adam an unbeliever? I don't think so, but we don't know for sure. All we really know is that Adam disobeyed God, and what God told Adam would happen to him in Genesis 2:17 did indeed happen. I'll say this, that Abel is evidence that Adam did indeed believe in the Lord, because somebody had to teach Abel about God and about making offerings to Him and serving Him, right?

instead and of course the devil's words were lies and caused Adam to disobey the Lord and be separated from God (spiritual death)

Hmmm, I agree that Adam's disobedience resulted in his spiritual death, for sure, and all people are in this condition from birth, yes. But no, I would say it was because of His... well, disobedience and resulting action, eating of the tree. I know people like to say, tongue in cheek, "well the devil made me do it," but that wasn't true for Adam, and it's not true for any of us. <smile>

... has to be done in conjunction with believing what God says...

Careful, you're making belief... and even faith... out to be a work of man, and that's not true... <smile>

Faith produces ACTION in that we starting thinking, speaking and acting according to what we believe

Yeah, kind of what I just said above... and that action is in the form of works, in serving God.

...the Lord says in His Word that faith without works (action) is dead. Nobody believes and then does nothing.

Agreed.

We all think, speak and act according to what we believe...

Yes, but what drives our will, Dan?

Those indoctrinated by so called reformed theology wouldn't understand...

Ah, there we go. So I say that those who... oh, rail against reformed theology don't really know what reformed theology is. They think they do, but on key matters do not. So it seems with you, Dan.

Faith comes from the Lord, He gave us our Faith so it's HIS Faith!

That's literally what I have said in the last two posts.

So faith is not just claiming we believe something

Right, as I have said, agreed...

it's also acting like what we believe is true...

Ah, well I would say it causes us to act like what we believe is true... to keep in step with the Spirit, as Paul says, and for the Spirit to bear His fruit through us. This is what I was getting at in my previous post... true belief is first of the heart. This is what Paul says in Romans 10, that if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. And we believe in our heart because of God's work in our heart by the Holy Spirit. It is possible for one to confess that in word, but he may or may not believe in his/her heart... But yes, like Jesus says, in answer to His disciples asking Him, "Who then can be saved," He looks at them and says, "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

So do you think it's God's will that some Christians not be given His faith?

In a sense no, and in another sense, yes. As Paul says, God chose us ~ those of us who have been saved, and those who will be... His elect ~ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) to be conformed to the image of His Son. The way I will put it is, God purposely chose who He chose for this purpose, but at least by exclusion purposely did not choose others for that purpose. And this is by His grace. But nothing in the Bible ever says God chose some... any... for damnation. Those who are not saved, or will not be saved, are chosen for what Paul calls "common use," which is to say "hated" in the manner in which He hated Esau. But this "hate" is not the opposite of love; if understood that way, God doesn't literally hate anyone, He loves all of His creation. But He doesn't love them in the particular, distinguishing, salvific way that He does His elect, and in that respect, it is a hate.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

That remnant Israel and the Gentile Church are the same, when we consider the book of Romans 15:8-10

Rom 15:8-10

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers[Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, David]:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people[Israel]. 15

 

[PinSeeker]

That remnant Israel and the Gentile Church are the same, when we consider the book of Romans 15:8-10

Ah, Well God's Israel ~ His household ~ includes Gentile believers, yes. As Paul says in Romans 2:28-29, "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit"... and in Ephesians 2:19-22, (Gentiles) "are no longer strangers and aliens, but are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... (i)n Him (Gentiles) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." That 'also' in verse 22 is very important; we are "all one in Christ Jesus," as Paul says in Galatians 3:28-29, regardless of ethnicity.

Grace and peace to you, BF52.

 

[brightfame52]

The Church is the NT Fulfillment of Remnant Israel, because under the OC national Israel under national covenant was a shadow and type, and at the time were Gods people and peculiar treasure. In this regard back then, the gentiles were not a people at all, not a people of God, but now, with the inauguration of the NT era by the blood of Christ, both saved jews and saved gentiles take on the sacred identification of Gods People and Peculiar Treasure. In the letter to Titus Paul wrote concerning the redemption they partook of through Christ says Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

In Rom 15 Paul identifies now the gentiles, believers as the people of God Rom 15:9-10

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Remember, Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. or

Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Paul writing to the Church of God in Corinth 2 Cor 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

He identifies them in the 6th Chapter with the Covenant Promises made to Israel of old, advising them of separation 2 Cor 6:14-16

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is a New Covenant promise being fulfilled to the Church of God

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Jer 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.