True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.
- Thread starter Patrick1966
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Dear Patrick1966,
God's "will" rules supreme in this creation.
1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Nothing happens that God does not "cause" to happen. That certainly includes all the evil in the world and the destroying work of Satan:
Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Consider these two verses below which show how God uses Satan:
2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
So how did God move David to number Israel and Judah? God sent Satan to cause it to happen:
1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Also, God clearly takes credit for all the evil that is in the world:
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they did so because it was planned and caused by God for it to happen. God even placed Satan in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve. God never leaves anything up to chance or to mankind's supposed "free will". God is the cause of everything that happens.
Eve was even shown to be carnally mind before she sinned:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
It is mankind's carnal nature which causes us to sin. God made mankind that way on purpose:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
God's "will" and plan for mankind includes mankind to have an experience of evil - not just on the receiving end of evil but also on the giving end of evil.
However, since God's overall purpose for this creation is to create new offspring for Himself, He made a pathway for mankind to travel which will lead us back to Him. To accomplish this work, God the Father sent Jesus Christ:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
After Christ finishes His work that His Father gave Him to do, it will be testified to be true that all who died in Adam, have been made alive in Christ - no one will be left out of the glorious future God has planned for us all.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe
Dear Patrick1966,
I just wanted to make one other comment on what you said:
You said:
I say "true". Satan is doing the "salting".
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
"Fire" is the spiritual symbol for judgment. Everyone will be salted (seasoned) by judgment. Satan does not do the "salting" as you stated. It is Christ and the Law who does the "salting".
Consider these verses on "salt":
Lev 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Eze 43:24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
The reason "salt" is added to the meat offerings is because it foreshadows the death of Christ. His death was a requirement of the Law to satisfy the penalty of the sins of mankind:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Christ was "salted" with fire (judgment) so that His death would "take away the sin of the world".
From Christ's death on the cross, Christ earned the keys to death and hell (the unseen place of the grave):
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Christ now has the legal authority to resurrect all mankind (whether we are saved or not) from the grave so that we have "life":
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
However, Christ came to give mankind more than just the same sinful life we presently have. He also came to give us a life that is more abundant. That more abundant life is a life which is free from sin and a life which has a restored relationship with His Father. Christ will accomplish mankind's more abundant life through His New Covenant which will convert all mankind into children of God.
Joe
Dear Patrick1966,
I have been on many forums over the past 12 years or so and you are probably the first person I've encountered that seems to have a real "love for the truth" and "eyes that can see". I was wondering if you have a conversion testimony that you would be willing to share. When did you come out from Orthodox Christianity and their false teachings?
Joe
Really? Wow!
I'm 56 and was raised Catholic, but I was never really into their dogma. Upon turning 50 I started listening to various online preachers and then read the Bible on my own and I realized that the Catholic Church taught a lot of doctrine that wasn't Biblical.
It's fun and fascinating to explore God's word but I always try to remember that knowing the gospel isn't what makes one a faithful follower of Christ, it's loving God and loving one another that is most important. But I still struggle with sin but I'm trying and I know that, when I die, Jesus will forgive me, transform me, and introduce me to God the Father.
(P.S. I hope they have someone up there taking pictures)
As soon as I read this it clicked for me and I knew that what you said was true because I immediately recalled this verse.
1 Corinthians 3:13
English Standard Version
13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
Dear Patrick1966,
Yes, all mankind will be judged. The Elect will be judged immediately following the Marriage to the Lamb (new birth) and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (consuming the truth of Christ). These events occur after Christ returns (His second coming) to the believer and pours out the Latter Rain upon them. Immediately after the Marriage Supper, judgment will fall on the believer's carnality. This judgment begins the "Day of the Lord" for that believer. This time of judgment for the Elect is called the "Thousand Years Reign". During this time of judgment, the new child of God will reign with Christ over their own judgment and will not experience wrath. Revelation chapter 19 and the first part of chapter 20 teach these truths.
Once the believer's judgment is complete, they will be fully converted and governed by the Holy Spirit.
For the people who are not saved before they die, they will be resurrected to judgment. During their judgment, they will experience "wrath" because they have not been "born again" when their judgment starts. Their judgment will be in accordance with the Law which demands their death. However, before they perish, Christ will have pity (mercy) upon them. He will then give them the Early and Latter Rain which will give them a new birth. Joel chapter 2 teaches this truth.
Without judgment, no one can be converted. This truth is what these two verses below are teaching:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
The "sword" is a symbol for the Word of God which is Christ. "Fire" is the symbol for judgment. Those who "perish" represents believers who have just been converted. It is their Man of Sin/Old Man who perishes, leaving only the newly born child of God.
Joe
Last edited:
Dear Patrick1966,
Once a believer is fully converted, they will be solely governed by the Holy Spirit and will sin no more. Being fully converted can take many years. The initial part of conversion happens quickly. That portion of judgment destroys the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer and it also destroys their carnal spiritual nature (Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot). They are said to be destroyed in "one hour". However, to be fully converted, a life time of carnal beliefs must be destroyed as well. This judgment is commonly called the chastisement of Christ.
This verse below teaches that judgment:
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (new) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The "earth" is a symbol for the spiritual nature of mankind. The Old Earth is our carnal nature and the New Earth is the spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit gives us. In the verse above, the "earth" mentioned is the New Earth. It is the New Earth which teaches us righteousness and transforms our carnal mind into the Mind of Christ. Once this transformation is complete, the believer will walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
From what you have stated in your post, I believe you have received the Latter Rain and have been given "eyes that can see". I encourage you to keep consuming the truth of God which is taught in scripture. It is that truth which will continue your conversion process and mature you into a son.
I also want to point out this verse which applies to the conversion process:
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead (the new birth), and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Upon receiving the Latter Rain, the believer is saved. It is at this point that God calls him His child even though the full process of conversion is not yet complete (he hasn't learned righteousness yet and he still walks by the flesh and sins). Until the new born child of God fully matures into a son, the blood of Christ will cover the sins they still commit. After they have spiritually matured, they will be a fully converted son of God and will only walk by the Spirit.
Finally, I want to re-enforce something that I am sure you already know. We are the work of Christ and He is the one who will see to it that we spiritually mature into a son. Christ is the one who will defeat the "giants in the land" (strongholds of our carnal mind). All we need is the same faith that Joshua and Caleb had when they spied out the Promised Land and saw the giants dwelling there - and Christ is the one who will give us that faith. We contribute nothing towards our own salvation.
Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days. 26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. 27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. 28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak (giants) there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan. 30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
The Promised Land is a symbol for our salvation (a child of God). Though it may seem impossible for us to conquer the giants in the Promised Land, we must never forget that Christ is the one who will defeat them. We are the work of His hands and not our own.
I welcome you to join me in saying: "Let's go up at once and possess the Land; for we are well able to overcome it".
Rev 17:14 These (the giants) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Joe
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Indeed, everything is done according to the will of God. But it is not necessarily best describe and Gods "intentions." But perhaps, as giving Satan enough room to hang himself, or luring him into the light that darkness would abate.
Job chapter 1 and 2. Satan is dog on lease. Satan had to get permission from God to mess with job. Revelation chapter 13. God will use satan as antichrist, near future, to test His children. God wants to know who loved Him enough to study his word. Majority will worship antichrist near future, they are biblically illiterate. God's election have holy spirit and gospel armory on, ephesians chapter 6 and revelation chapter 7 to document. Many people will end up in hell, called sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Satan is dog on a lease.
God’s Plan for Mankind has a negative side and God uses Satan to help fulfill that....
Space_Karen
Well-Known Member
False.
Imagine that a child or angel is born. This child has its entire life before it. They can choose to become a doctor or a humanitarian. When satan was born, God did not hope and pray that this child of angels would become a deceiver or mass murderer. To suggest that this is the case, is to conflict with basic fundamenatal principles of christianity.
However, over time this child of angels which could have had a bright future had they chosen to make different decisions. Decided to walk a dark path. God in his wisdom anticipated this and works to make the best of the bad situation.
To suggest that God desires us to fail, suffer and be miserable, while harming one another, is the true question being asked here.
Interestingly, the concept of satan merely carrying out God's orders was used to justify torture in the medieval period.
Medieval torturers said "God will not allow you to be tempted, more than you can bear" which means you can be tortured using cruel and unusual methods and it will not exceed what God believes you can tolerate. This is the explanation they used to morally justify all types of horrific acts of torture, which they used to compel prisoners into giving a confession.
Things go very bad very quickly when people interpret the bible inaccurately.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Dear lambano,
I agree with your statement. Paul was asked about this same issue of why God holds us accountable in light of the fact that God causes all things to happen. See how Paul responded:
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Also, consider this verse:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Mankind falsely believes that they have a "free will" ability to choose to do good or evil. Yes, we "choose" but God is the one who causes the decisions we make. Even our confession of faith in Christ comes from God and does not come from our supposed free will ability to choose. If mankind had a free will ability, then this scripture would be false:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 7 That in the age to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.In this scripture, Paul is speaking about converted believers (those who have received both the Early and Latter Rains). They are the Elect; the first fruits of the harvest of mankind. They are saved early so that God can show the exceeding riches of His grace to those who are resurrected to judgment (v. 7). For what purpose will God do this? God does it to show the "lost" what He can do for them, too. He certainly does not do it to taunt them.
We must understand that God sent Christ to save the world:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Christ has a plan to accomplish this great work. In this age, Christ is only saving the first fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are blessed because they were chosen from the foundation of the world for this honor. No one else will be saved in this age. Mankind does not have a free will ability to save themselves or to even "choose" Christ.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
The Elect accept Christ solely in response to the spiritual work that Christ does within their heart. Christ is the Savior and He is the one who does all the necessary physical and spiritual work for mankind's salvation. Until Christ comes to a person and gives them both the Early and Latter Rains, they will not saved. Because a person contributes nothing toward their own salvation, they have nothing to boast about.
But since Christ came to save all mankind, He will not stop His work until the last person is saved. The end of the final age will be the great ingathering (Feast of Tabernacles) of mankind. At that time, Christ and the Elect will make this call:
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Feast of Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride (the Elect) say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
After the full harvest is made, this verse will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Lambano,
Just as you said "God is sovereign" and all things exist because of Him. In the end, all mankind will become His children just as He has stated - then the purpose for this creation will become clear to everyone.
Joe
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Satan is doing what God allows HIm to do. god would never create evil, but He does allow it for His purposes that will be shown to us ultimately.
Isaiah 45:7
Young's Literal Translation
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Yes, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do for the benefit of our education, development, and edification.
Similar threads
