Truth Be Told

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Netchaplain

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This is the very same thing I've seen in the oh so many passages that various people point to as if they taught that salvation is something that can be bartered and lost. None of them, not a single one, actually say that.

Comments are made that we should accept what is written. I cannot agree more than I do! And neither should we go beyond what is written. Not one single verse that people point to as if it says we can become "unreborn" actually makes that statement.

Much love!
True and Amen! Thanks for the comment, and God's blessings to your Family!
 

theefaith

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This is the very same thing I've seen in the oh so many passages that various people point to as if they taught that salvation is something that can be bartered and lost. None of them, not a single one, actually say that.

Comments are made that we should accept what is written. I cannot agree more than I do! And neither should we go beyond what is written. Not one single verse that people point to as if it says we can become "unreborn" actually makes that statement.

Much love!

the real problem is thinking you’re saved!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
 

theefaith

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Some say water baptism, others, that man must be born first (water and embryotic fluid) before he can be born again. Still, some say the "water" is the same as the Spirit, e.g. "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you" (Eze 36:25).

Gill: "water and Spirit; two words, which express the same thing, signify the grace of the Spirit of God. By "water," is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was (Simon the sorcerer - Act 8:13), and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state, yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Ezekiel 36:25).

some say?

what happened to Jn 8:32?

One faith!

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

One heart / one mind

Acts 4:32
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul:

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Apostles received the truth from Christ and are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are commanded to teach all men! Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Matt 28:19

Apostles have same mission, power, ministry, and authority as Christ!
Jn 20:21

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27

Jesus says: I remind you you’re still under oath!


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone”

Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2
 

Grailhunter

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All of the Scriptures that appear to teach that one can become unsaved, which word isn’t actually used, are just suppositions in order to express the impossibility of being saved more than once, enforcing the desire to be saved. If the statements were true, what sense would there be in God saving someone, then eventually become lost. It would be like assuming God didn’t know they would become lost.

It hinges on free will, honest intent, and God doing the right thing, every time.
The doctor that has a neighbor that both has a fetish for shellfish and is allergic to it, will treat her knowing that she will do it again.
The human condition, our nature, God made us what we are....and God loved us while we were yet sinners and died for us.
It should be easy to love a God that loved us that much.
But yet the unpardonable sin....the sin onto death....the turning of someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh....
How many sins can we commit until we succumb to sin? "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” Genesis 4:7 Sin will be part of the human experience no matter what we do, but we must be master over it and strive to keep it to a minimum. Put on the armor of Christ and Grace will be our shield and faith our standard......(battle flag)

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

2nd Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

How much sin will Christ forgive if your repentance and intent is true?

Best advice....do not test Grace....do not find that line....do not play Christ as a fool.

Be good and do good.
 

theefaith

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It hinges on free will, honest intent, and God doing the right thing, every time.
The doctor that has a neighbor that both has a fetish for shellfish and is allergic to it, will treat her knowing that she will do it again.
The human condition, our nature, God made us what we are....and God loved us while we were yet sinners and died for us.
It should be easy to love a God that loved us that much.
But yet the unpardonable sin....the sin onto death....the turning of someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh....
How many sins can we commit until we succumb to sin? "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” Genesis 4:7 Sin will be part of the human experience no matter what we do, but we must be master over it and strive to keep it to a minimum. Put on the armor of Christ and Grace will be our shield and faith our standard......(battle flag)

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

2nd Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

How much sin will Christ forgive if your repentance and intent is true?

Best advice....do not test Grace....do not find that line....do not play Christ as a fool.

Be good and do good.

God always forgives on true repentance
 
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Charlie24

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Can't agree with the OP! Just as surly as ones sins are blotted out by faith in Christ, so is ones righteousness blotted out when he ceases to have faith in Christ.

Ezekiel 18:24

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

When faith in Christ stops there is no more forgiveness for sins, that man will die in his sins. The righteousness he forsook was freely given by faith, and freely taken away when that faith stopped!
 

Grailhunter

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The family of God is true.
But some will have it harder than others and their faith may waiver....such is being human.

Luke chapter 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

The Parable of the Lost Coin
8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

Salvation is a journey, not an instant in time. A walk with Christ. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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theefaith

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Can't agree with the OP! Just as surly as ones sins are blotted out by faith in Christ, so is ones righteousness blotted out when he ceases to have faith in Christ.

Ezekiel 18:24

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

When faith in Christ stops there is no more forgiveness for sins, that man will die in his sins. The righteousness he forsook was freely given by faith, and freely taken away when that faith stopped!

then why does Paul say to Christians who are believers not to sin?

Rom 6:19
1 cor 6:9
Heb 12:4

and Jesus in the gospel
Matt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 

Charlie24

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then why does Paul say to Christians who are believers not to sin?

Rom 6:19
1 cor 6:9
Heb 12:4

and Jesus in the gospel
Matt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Paul is the only author in the entire Bible who explains who man is, where he is at, and where he is going. He's the only one who explains sin, what it is, what it means, and how to overcome it.

The message Paul teaches about sin is that it is our nature to sin, but the forgiveness of sin by Grace through faith is not a license to sin, we can overcome sin to the point of it not having dominion over us.

Christ teaching on sin is a totally different thing or reason. Christ was the last prophet under Law, he taught the Law, and at the same time revealed the depth of the Law. He made it totally obvious man cannot keep the Law by trying, man needs help from a higher power. But before the higher power can help, sin must be dealt with, that is what He came to do. He condemned sin in the flesh, and defeated it.

Now through His perfection, BY OUR FAITH in Him, the Law that He kept perfectly is fulfilled in us. Not by the way the Old Testament saints were required to do, but now under Grace, the Law is kept by faith in Christ.

Rom. 8:3-4

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Those that "walk not after the flesh" are those have total faith in what Christ did, and allow the Holy Spirit to work in them of His will, not your trying as did those who were under Law.
 

Grailhunter

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Christ was the last prophet under Law

Sounds a little Jehovah's Witness....

Yeshua was a lot more than a prophet....He is a God. He did not preach the Law....He explained that these two religions do not mix.
He talked to the Jews about the Law and corrected the Law.
 

Charlie24

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Sounds a little Jehovah's Witness....

Yeshua was a lot more than a prophet....He is a God. He did not preach the Law....He explained that these two religions do not mix.
He talked to the Jews about the Law and corrected the Law.

Christ didn't teach the Law?

When the rich young ruler came to Christ and asked what good thing shall I do to inherit eternal life, Christ began to quote the 10 commandments (the moral Law).

Then he told Christ he had kept these commandments from his youth and up, but he had not kept the Law, no one ever has but Christ.
 

Grailhunter

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Christ didn't teach the Law?

When the rich young ruler came to Christ and asked what good thing shall I do to inherit eternal life, Christ began to quote the 10 commandments (the moral Law).

It is a common misunderstanding. The Holy Bible is one book and people think that Abraham was a Christian and was saved.
There is a sequence of time periods, events, and covenants.

During the time of Yeshua's ministry they were under the Old Covenant and Mosaic Laws. Some scholars call Yeshua the secret Messiah because He did not tell the Jews that He was their Messiah. When He performed miracles a lot of the times He would tell them to tell no one. He did not tell them that He was a God, because the Jews were expecting a human Messiah. This is one the things that that the Jehovah's Witnesses key on to base their heresy.

The Jews saw His ministry as an extension of Judaism. That is the reason that the Jews did not ask Him questions on the Way, but rather tested Him on the Law. They tested Him about the Law when they brought the woman to Him found in adultery, they tested Him about the Law concerning divorce, they tested Him on the eye for eye Law, they questioned Him when He told His Apostles to eat from the field on the Sabbath, they questioned Him about healing on the Sabbath and they had other questions but it all about the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant.

Yeshua could not have told the rich young ruler to believe on Him and be saved because that time had not come yet.

The New Covenant was proposed at the "Last Supper" and initialized upon His death on the cross. The resurrection was the proof that the New Covenant was established by a God.

Yeshua explained that the two religions do not mix by explaining that you do not put new wine in old wine skins because they both would be ruined...same thing with the new cloth on old clothes. In the end He explained that after He left the Holy Spirit would come and explain the New Covenant. Yeshua and the Holy Spirt work together with the Apostles to implement the New Covenant. Then the Apostle Paul received special instruction to let be known that Christians are not under the Law.

This was a major contention between Paul and the Jewish Christians until the first council in Jerusalem where the 613 Mosaic Laws were laid to rest for Christians, with only four stipulations.
 
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Ezra

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Yes, you can lose your salvation.
hold the press grab hold of your chair.. this will sit like sour milk on the stomach . neither one is found in the Bible you can lose salvation or your so saved you cant lose aka once saved always saved or osnas neither is in the Bible . it is man taking scripture and making it say what he wants..

i cant prove either one what i can say there is words of warning of falling away and there is words that tells us our salvation is kept by the POWER OF GOD. i hold to a know so salvation if you dont know your not saved. there is a assurance and it is eternal . paul wrote what shall we sin because we are under grace? he stated certainly NOT . if one is living in sin under the assumption its ok. when its not. chances are they was never saved
 

Ezra

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might i add jesus said no man can pluck us from the fathers hand my sheep know my voice a stranger the will not follow
 

Charlie24

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It is a common misunderstanding. The Holy Bible is one book and people think that Abraham was a Christian and was saved.
There is a sequence of time periods and covenants.

During the time of Yeshua's ministry they were under the Old Covenant and Mosaic Laws. Some scholars call Yeshua the secret Messiah because He did not tell the Jews that He was their Messiah. When He performed miracles a lot of the times He would tell them to tell no one. He did not tell them that He was a God, because the Jews were expecting a human Messiah. This is one the things that that the Jehovah's Witnesses key on to base their heresy.

The Jews saw His ministry as an extension of Judaism. That is the reason that the Jews did not ask Him questions on the Way, but rather tested Him on the Law. They tested Him about the Law when they brought the woman to Him found in adultery, they tested Him about the Law concerning divorce, they tested Him on the eye for eye Law, they questioned Him when He told His Apostles to eat from the field on the Sabbath, they questioned Him about healing on the Sabbath and they had other questions but it all about the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant was proposed at the "Last Supper" and initialized upon His death on the cross. The resurrection was the proof that the New Covenant was established by a God.

Yeshua explained that the two religions do not mix by explaining that you do not put new wine in old wine skins because they both would be ruined...same thing with the new cloth on old clothes. In the end He explained that after He left the Holy Spirit would come and explain the New Covenant. Yeshua and the Holy Spirt work together with the Apostles to implement the New Covenant. Then the Apostle Paul received special instruction to let be known that Christians are not under the Law.

This was a major contention between Paul and the Jewish Christians until the first council in Jerusalem where the 613 Mosaic Laws were laid to rest for Christians, with only four stipulations.

I see it a totally different way. Christ taught the Law because that is God's standard of righteousness. If man could keep these Laws (speaking of the 10 commandments, the moral Law) he would have his own righteousness.

But keeping these Laws is impossible for fallen man. That was the purpose of the Sacrificial Law. They were to be honest and admit they couldn't keep the Law, this is how the Law pointed to Christ through the sacrifice of an innocent animal for the forgiveness of sin which represented Christ.

By the time Christ came, Israel had lost all knowledge of Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law. This was how they were to recognize Him, as the sacrificial Lamb, but their self righteousness blinded them. They had perverted the Law in all its form.

Without seeing the sacrificial Lamb, all the miracles meant nothing.
 

Grailhunter

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I see it a totally different way. Christ taught the Law because that is God's standard of righteousness. If man could keep these Laws (speaking of the 10 commandments, the moral Law) he would have his own righteousness.

But keeping these Laws is impossible for fallen man. That was the purpose of the Sacrificial Law. They were to be honest and admit they couldn't keep the Law, this is how the Law pointed to Christ through the sacrifice of an innocent animal for the forgiveness of sin which represented Christ.

By the time Christ came, Israel had lost all knowledge of Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law. This was how they were to recognize Him, as the sacrificial Lamb, but their self righteousness blinded them. They had perverted the Law in all its form.

Without seeing the sacrificial Lamb, all the miracles meant nothing.

Well it is a common mistake for people to go to the Bible and try to find their personal beliefs.
This is one of the reasons that there are thousands of Protestant denominations.
People are suppose to learn from the Bible not superimpose their personal beliefs on the Bible.
Beliefs, Truths, Facts. It is good to base your religion on Truths and Facts. Beliefs can be anything....a star burst of ideas that can go in all directions.

By the time Christ came, Israel had lost all knowledge of Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law.
This statement does not make any sense.

This was how they were to recognize Him, as the sacrificial Lamb, but their self righteousness blinded them. They had perverted the Law in all its form.

This is not accurate as a whole. There were some Jews that perverted the Law....and Yeshua made some corrections to the Law.
 

Charlie24

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hold the press grab hold of your chair.. this will sit like sour milk on the stomach . neither one is found in the Bible you can lose salvation or your so saved you cant lose aka once saved always saved or osnas neither is in the Bible . it is man taking scripture and making it say what he wants..

i cant prove either one what i can say there is words of warning of falling away and there is words that tells us our salvation is kept by the POWER OF GOD. i hold to a know so salvation if you dont know your not saved. there is a assurance and it is eternal . paul wrote what shall we sin because we are under grace? he stated certainly NOT . if one is living in sin under the assumption its ok. when its not. chances are they was never saved

Salvation is kept by faith in Christ! The power of God to promise that salvation is only found by faith.

As long as faith in Christ is in the heart, nothing can pluck them out of the Father's hand.
 

Charlie24

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Well it is a common mistake for people to go to the Bible and try to find their personal beliefs.
This is one of the reasons that there are thousands of Protestant denominations.
People are suppose to learn from the Bible not superimpose their personal beliefs on the Bible.
Beliefs, Truths, Facts. It is good to base your religion on Truths and Facts. Beliefs can be anything....a star burst of ideas that can go in all directions.

By the time Christ came, Israel had lost all knowledge of Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law.
This statement does not make any sense.

This was how they were to recognize Him, as the sacrificial Lamb, but their self righteousness blinded them. They had perverted the Law in all its form.

This is not accurate as a whole. There were some Jews that perverted the Law....and Yeshua made some corrections to the Law.

All the explaining we could endeavor will never bring us to the same conclusion.

We have approached the Scripture in opposite ways.
 

Ezra

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Salvation is kept by faith in Christ! The power of God to promise that salvation is only found by faith.

As long as faith in Christ is in the heart, nothing can pluck them out of the Father's hand.
well lets look at exactly how the scriptures read
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 10:27-29
King James Version

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

that is how it reads exactly .if you can show me in scripture m where its say you can lose salvation or you can not . please post it in them exact words
 

Charlie24

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well lets look at exactly how the scriptures read
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 10:27-29
King James Version

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

that is how it reads exactly .if you can show me in scripture m where its say you can lose salvation or you can not . please post it in them exact words

I can show you several verses that do not say "you can lose your salvation" but they are saying "you can lose your salvation."

They have been posted (I have seen them) time and time again, but they are not believed.

I posted one this morning from Ezekiel 18:24,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

The trespass that he committed was abandoning his faith! That is turning from the righteousness given by faith.