TRUTH

[epostle1]

There is nothing elusive about Catholic teaching, Rex. What is "elusive" is the manner that you twist the catechism to make it say what you want it to say so you can point your finger.

It is a defined doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church. Yet, as the Holy Office pointed out ... we must understand this the way the Church means it, not by private interpretation.

First we find that the Church insists many times over that those who through no fault of their own do not find the Church, but keep the moral law with the help of grace, can be saved:

<Lumen gentium> #16 says: "For they who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation." John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10 says the same [underline added]: "For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them <formally> part of the Church." We underline the word "formally" to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says "they are fully incorporated" who accept all its
organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation. more here.(that you will never read)

But it doesn't seem to matter how many times or how many ways it is explained to you, you will continue to take the catechism out of context whenever it fits your prejudice.

You simply refuse to admit the Catholic Church accepts Christians outside her walls, because that would mean she is inclusive, and true to the Gospel, whereas your one-man bible cult excludes just about everybody else.

 

[Rex]

Its such a mystery that its own members dare not comment but simply point to the mysterious writing in the CCC that changes its meaning dependent on the situation.
BTW how many times do you suppose the catechism uses the word mystery?

And thanks for the second class salvation message LOL

First we find that the Church insists many times over that those who through no fault of their own do not find the Church, but keep the moral
law with the help of grace, can be saved:

We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation. more here.(that you will never read)

Selene said it all or should I say he never commented on the pillar 811 that's a bit hypocritical isn't it?
She/he couldn't even come out and publicly say the catechism 811

 

[Selene]

Just can't bring yourself to say it can you.
I did notice you posted this as well,[font=lucida sans unicode'][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]CCC 171[/background][/font] but like I said you can;t bring yourself to say it.
Do you know the verse? If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father
Does that apply to your church and its teachings as well
For your sake I hope so

The Latin phrase extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the church there is no salvation".
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."

I just wanted everyone to see how elusive catholics can be, thank you for your testimony.

[font=lucida sans unicode'][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]CCC 171 [/background][/font][font=lucida sans unicode'][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]The Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth", faithfully guards "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints". She guards the memory of Christ's words; it is she who from generation to generation hands on the apostles' confession of faith.[/background][sup]57[/sup][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)] As a mother who teaches her children to speak and so to understand and communicate, the Church our Mother teaches us the language of faith in order to introduce us to the understanding and the life of faith.[/background][/font]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the church there is no salvation"!!! Is that what this is all about?? Well, for goodness sake, why didn't you say so? Outside the Church, there is no salvation......do you believe that Buddhism will bring salvation? Do you believe that Hinduism will bring salvation? Do you believe that paganism will bring salvation?? These religions do not bring salvation. It is ONLY in Christianity that one will find salvation. Do you not agree????

Did you do your homework on extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the church there is no salvation"?? I can see that you did not. If you did, you would have known that this was written by one of the Popes to the King of France long BEFORE the Reformation. So, you are taking a statement from a papal letter written to the King of France in the 1300s and distorting it out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while all others will go to Hell. For Shame!!!

According to our Catechism, the Roman Catholic Church binds herself to the Orthodox Christians and to the Protestants who also call themselves "Christians." Together with us, we make up the "Body of Christ." This is what the Catechism states:

Under the Heading "Who Belongs to the Catholic Church."

CCC 838 [background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[/background][sup]322[/sup][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)] Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[/background][sup]323[/sup][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)] [/background]With the Orthodox Churches[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)], this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."[/background][sup]32[/sup]

[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]So, as you can see in our Catechism, Orthodox and Protestant Christians are together with us under the same heading. You belong to the Catholic Church only because we bind ourselves to you. And AFTER we bind ourselves to you, look at the Heading, "Outside the Church There is No Salvation." [/background]

[sup]Under the Heading "Outside the Church There is No Salvation", this is what is stated: [/sup]

[sup]CCC 848 [/sup][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[/background][sup]335[/sup][background=rgb(251, 250, 248)] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head through the Church which is his Body:[/background]

[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/background][sup]336[/sup]

CCC 847 [background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:[/background]
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[sup]337[/sup]
[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]CCC 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[sup]338[/sup][/background]

[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]AFTER binding ourselves to the Orthodox and Protestant Christians in CCC 838, do you honestly think that we are going to include the Orthodox and Protestant Christians under that Heading "Outside the Church, there is no salvation"????? If we did that, we would be including ourselves.....because we already stated in CCC 838 that we binded ourselves to the Orthodox and Protestants as one body of Christ and as part of the Catholic Church.[/background]

[background=rgb(251, 250, 248)]Those outside the Church are non-Christians. Salvation comes only from Christ. And Christ is present in the Church as He is Head of the Church. Salvation can only be found in the Christianity.....not in Buddhism, Hindism, Shintoism, or any pagan religion. Salvation comes only from God, who is Head of the Church, and if a pagan desires to receive this salvation, he can only find it in Christianity. After that, the Catechism speaks about the necessity of going out to the nations and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [/background]

 

[Rex]

Don't you have something better to do like kiss a ring or something

 

[Selene]

Don't you have something better to do like kiss a ring or something

What has this have to do with what I just posted? You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

 

[Rex]

Polish some red shoes anything beside bore us with the details of your church I call the titanic

What has this have to do with what I just posted? You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

Say kitty cat I don't have a clue what your talking abot

I suggest you use the quote button

And bring that accusation on down

 

[Selene]

Polish some red shoes anything beside bore us with the details of your church I call the titanic



Say kitty cat I don't have a clue what your talking abot

I suggest you use the quote button

And bring that accusation on down

Take Reading 101, then you will have a clue.

 

[Rex]

What has this have to do with what I just posted? You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

Take Reading 101, then you will have a clue.

I think you need a nice warm bowl of milk so you can think clearly

Post 101 not there
http://www.christian..._90#entry174598

So where is this letter I quoted BTW

Show me the post

You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

Well it looks like were going to have to add false accusations to the list of your fine attributes.
I assure you I never used such a letter

 

[Axehead]

Following are excerpts from only a few ex-RCC priests that salvation is by works, in the book:

• Henry Gregory Adams. Born in Saskatchewan, Canada. He entered the Basilian Order of monks and adopted the monastic name of "Saint Hilarion the Great." He was ordained as a priest and served five parishes in the Lemont, Alberta area.
  • Sacraments. "The monastic life and the sacraments prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church did not help me to come to know Christ personally and find salvation...I realized that the man-made sacraments of my church and my good works were in vain for salvation. They lead to a false security." (p. 3)
• Joseph Tremblay. Born in Quebec, Canada, 1924. He was ordained a priest in Rome, Italy and was sent to Bolivia, Chile where he served for 13 years "as a missionary in the congregation of the Oblate Fathers of Mary Immaculate."
  • Salvation by works. "My theology has taught me that salvation is by works and sacrifices....my theology gives me no assurance of salvation; the Bible offers me that assurance....I had been trying to save myself on my works...I was stifled in a setting in which I was pushed to do good works to merit my salvation." (pp. 9, 11-12)
• Bartholomew F. Brewer. He applied to the Discalced Carmelites, a strict monastic order. He received training of "four years of high school seminary, two years in the novitiate, three years of philosophy, and four years of theology (the last after ordination)." He was ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in Washington, D.C. He eventually served as a diocesan priest in San Diego, California and entered the Navy as a Roman Catholic chaplain.
  • Upon questioning Rome's Beliefs, "At first I did not understand, but gradually I observed a wonderful change in mother. Her influence helped me realize the importance of the Bible in determining what we believe. We often discussed subjects such as the primacy of Peter, papal infallibility, the priesthood, infant baptism, confession, the mass, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven. In time I realized that not only are these beliefs not in the Bible, they are actually contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture." (pp. 21-22)
    
  • Relying on works. He left the Roman Catholic Church, got married and through conversations with his wife and other Christians, "I finally understood that I had been relying on my own righteousness and religious efforts and not upon the completed and sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic religion had never taught me that our own righteousness is fleshly and not acceptable to God, nor that we need to trust in his righteousness alone...during all those years of monastic life I had relied on the sacraments of Rome to give me grace, to save me." (p. 25)
• Hugh Farrell. Born in Denver, Colorado. Entered the Order of our Lady of Mount Carmel, commonly called the Discalced Carmelite Fathers. Ordained as a priest.
  • Priestly power to change elements: "The priest, according to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, has the power to take ordinary bread and wine, and, by pronouncing the words of the consecration prayer in the sacrifice of the Mass, to change it into the actual body and blood and soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Hence, since one cannot separate the human nature of Christ from his divinity, the bread and wine, after being changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, are entitled to the worship of adoration." (pp. 28)
    
  • Temporal punishment due to sins. "I knew from the teachings of the priests and nuns that I could not hope to go directly to heaven after my death. My Roman Catholic catechism taught me that after death I had to pay for the temporal punishment due to my sins. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 'the souls of the just which, in a moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sin, enter purgatory.'" (p. 29)
    
  • Penance. Regarding life in the monastery and doing penance. "These penances consist of standing with the arms outstretched to form a cross, kissing the sandaled feet of the monks, receiving a blow upon the face from the monks, and, at the end of the meal, lying prostrate before the entrance to the refectory so that the departing monks must step over one's body. These, and other penances, are supposed to gain one merit in heaven and increase one's 'spiritual bank account.'" (p. 36)
    
  • The Mass and sorcery. "According to the teaching of the Roman Church the priest, no matter how unworthy he may personally be, even if he has just made a pact with the devil for his soul, has the power to change the elements of bread and wine into the actual body and blood, soul and divinity, of Jesus Christ. Provided he pronounces the words of consecration properly and has the intention of consecrating, God must come down on the altar and enter and take over the elements." (p. 39)
• Alexander Carson. Baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as an infant. His priesthood studies were at St. John's seminary, Brighton, Massachusetts. He was ordained by Bishop Lawrence Shehan of Bridgeport, Connecticut in 1955 and was a priest in Alexandria, Louisiana. Also, he was pastor of Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Rayville, Louisiana.
  • Bible or Tradition. "...the Holy Spirit led me to judge Roman Catholic theology by the standard of the Bible. Previously, I had always judged the Bible by Roman Catholic doctrine and theology." (p. 53)
    
  • Mass contrary to scripture. "In my letter of resignation from the Roman Catholic Church and Ministry, I stated to the bishop that I was leaving the priesthood because I could no longer offer the Mass, as it was contrary to the Word of God and to my conscience." (pp. 54-55)
• Charles Berry. He entered the Order of Hermits of St. Augustine and became a priest after 17 years. He was given orders to continue studying until he achieved a Ph.D. in chemistry and was then "transferred to the headquarters of the Augustinian order in the United States."
  • Superstition. "In the United States the Roman Catholic Church is on its best behavior, putting its best foot forward because of its critics and opponents. In a Roman Catholic country, where it has few opponents or critics, it is a very different matter. Ignorance and superstition and idolatry are everywhere, and little effort, if any, is made to change the situation. Instead of following the Christianity taught in the Bible the people concentrate on the worship of statues and their local patron saints." (p. 59)
    
  • Idols and Statues. "When I met in Cuba a genuine pagan who worshiped idols (a religion transplanted from Africa by his ancestors), I asked how he could believe that a plaster idol could help him. He replied that the idol was not expected to help him; it only represented the power in heaven which could. What horrified me about his reply was that it was almost word for word the explanation Roman Catholics give for rendering honor to the statues of the saints." (p. 59)
• Bob Bush. He went to a Jesuit Seminary and studied for 13 years before being ordained in 1966. He entered a post graduate program in Rome.
  • Works: "When I entered the order, the first thing that happened was that I was told I had to keep all the rules and regulations, that to do so would be pleasing to God, and that this was what he wanted for me. We were taught the motto, 'Keep the rule and the rule will keep you.'" (p. 66).
    
  • Salvation is by faith: "It took me many years to realize that I was compromising by staying in the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout all those years I continued to stress that salvation is only in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and not in the infant baptism; that there is only one source of authority which is the Bible, the word of God; and that there is no purgatory but rather that when we die to either go to heaven or hell." (p. 69)
    
  • Salvation by works: "The Roman Catholic Church then goes on to say that in order to be saved you must keep its laws, rules and regulations. And in these laws are violated (for example, laws concerning birth control or fasting or attendance at Mass every Sunday), then you have committed a sin....'individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the only ordinary way by which the faithful person who was aware of serious sin can be reconciled with God, and with the church' (Canon 9609)." (p. 75)
    
  • Works: "The Roman Catholic Church adds works, and that you have to do these specific things [keeping its laws, rule and regulations] ]in order to be saved, whereas the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace that we are saved, not by works." (pp. 75-76)

God bless all you brothers and sisters that are standing up for the Word of God!!

Axehead

 

[Rex]

Here kitty kitty kitty where did you go Selene kitty kitty kitty.

I'm waiting for this letter you were accusing me of quoting

What has this have to do with what I just posted? You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

To be sure I don't need to falsify information to make a case

but for the last two pages that's exactly what you boys and girls have been doing
we were down to no one can interpret the catholic catechism except the magic magisterium

I'll check back in the morning

 

[neophyte]

Rex, outside of God's One True Universal and Apostolic Church only God Himself can save you. God made His Church the only Church that contains the "Fullness of the Christian Faith" Luke 19:16, Eph.2:19, your Protestant churches haven't any connection with any descriptive verses that describe His Church albeit Jesus did say there would be both good and bad members in His Church [ John 6:70 ] and not all members will go to heaven [ Matt.7:21-23 ] Christ's Church is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established , the sacraments [ Eph. 5:26 ] The Church is called Catholic [ Universal ] Matt.28:19-20, Rev. 5:9-10 ] God wants us to be members of this 'universal ' family [ Gal. 3:28 ] The Church is Apostolic [ Eph.2:19-20 ] Jesus never started a collection of differing churches [ Lutheran,Baptist, Anglican and so on. The Bible tells us that the Church is the bride of Jesus and Jesus can have only one wife. [ Eph. 5: 23-32 ] His Church teaches just one set of doctrine ,same as those taught by the apostles [ Jude 3 } This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us [ Phil. 1:27, 2: 2 ] Never ever changing doctrine, same as all yesterdays same today and all tomorrows [ John 16:12-13 ]

 

[THE Gypsy]

Rex, outside of God's One True Universal and Apostolic Church only God Himself can save you.

Um...INSIDE too.

 

[dragonfly]

Awesome post #189, Axehead.


The word of God is amazing in it's power to bring understanding of the Truth.

 

[Selene]

Here kitty kitty kitty where did you go Selene kitty kitty kitty.

I'm waiting for this letter you were accusing me of quoting



To be sure I don't need to falsify information to make a case

but for the last two pages that's exactly what you boys and girls have been doing
we were down to no one can interpret the catholic catechism except the magic magisterium

I'll check back in the morning

Wow! Such Christianlike behavior. The moment one resorts to this kind of behavior is the mement one already lost the debate.

 

[Rex]

Wow! Such Christianlike behavior. The moment one resorts to this kind of behavior is the mement one already lost the debate.

But baseless empty accusations with out apology is

Standing on the truth can be a messy business Matthew 10:34-35

What has this have to do with what I just posted? You deliberately took a papal letter written in the 1300s that was meant for the King of France, and you took that letter out of context so you can make it look like the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while others go to Hell. For shame!!

I don't see the evidence I don't see an apology.
All I see is Selene speaking her native tongue

 

[Selene]

But baseless empty accusations with out apology is

Standing on the truth can be a messy business Matthew 10:34-35



I don't see the evidence I don't see an apology.
All I see is Selene speaking her native tongue

[font=lucida sans unicode']My brother, you asked me a question on whether salvation comes from God or not. I gave you the Catechism showing that according to our doctrines, salvation comes only from God. Then you bring up "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." So, who is being evasive and hiding? Why didn't you just come out and asked about "Outside the Church, there is no salvation" in the first place? Afterall, it is obvious that you did not even believe the quote coming from the Catechism. [/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']The phrase, "Outside the Church, there is no salvation" can be found in many anti-Catholic website....as well as some Traditional Catholics websites who have been excommunicated by the Vatican. They claim that the Church teaches that only Catholics are saved while all other Christians are not, and then cite that phrase "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." What they don't tell you is that phrase was taken out from a letter that Pope Boniface wrote to the King of France in 1302. The phrase "Outside the church, there is no salvation" does not mean that only Catholics are saved. I am a Catholic, and I have read the Catechisms, and I know her teachings. And I am telling you that the Catholic Church does not teach that only Catholics are saved. [/font]

 

[dragonfly]

Acts 2: 21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10: 8 - 14 '... The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

 

[HARRISONGUILLORY]

http://youtu.be/VHp4P4tSDkE WATCH

 

[epostle1]

The funny thing is these bizarre post Enlightenment cults think they are the original church and the Catholic Church went off the rails after the death of the last Apostle. The truth is they are so removed from Christian teaching even the reformers would not recognize them as Christian, let alone the Church of the ante-Niacene era. Yet they declare themselves qualified to criticize Catholicism and ignore/deny history. What a joke.

 

[mjrhealth]

Its fine if Jesus walked into any church today, He would be calles a heretic and thrown out, just like the pharrisees they wont know Him because they have distotred His face beyond recognition.

In All His Grace