Trying To Work This Out - Outer Darkness

[Jack]

The everlasting Hell fire is truly Biblical. We can speculate but the reality is that Hell is a place to avoid! The worst prison ever, with the most evil beings who ever lived, with NO PAROLE!

 

[MatthewG]

What verse or passage leads you to this conclusion? I don’t see that. Outer darkness will not exist after death. I see “death“ being conquered as being the last enemy of God (See: 1 Corinthians 15:26). Outer darkness would be a place of punishment for unfaithful believers (Who are enemies of God). Death will happen to those who are finally cast into the Lake of Fire. But the same ending fate for all who are unfaithful to God is the same.

Believers who are not even looking for their LORD will be cut asunder and appointed with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

This is why Post Trib and Preterism does not make any sense to me. They are not looking for their LORD.
So seeing they are not looking for their LORD, they will have their portion with the unbelievers in being left behind on this Earth (while the saints have been ”Caught Up” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Granted, we do look through a glass darkly.

1 Corinthians 13:12
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

But I think God has given us what we needed to know and we should trust on what limited knowledge (According to His Word) He has deemed acceptable for us to have. So I will trust in His Word in what it says plainly. However, many today make assumptions that goes beyond the text (of which I see happening among many today). They will say that outer darkness is hell or the Lake of Fire when the Bible does not teach such a thing. There is no verse or passage that makes that connection. I also must ask you why you think “outer darkness” exists after “death.” What verse or passage leads you to that conclusion? I did not see any Bible citation for that statement.

In either case, may God bless you (even if we do not agree on this topic fully).

It’s call freedom in Christ to choose
Between you and God decide would be the right thing is.

Just read the last chapter of revelation.


Seems like murderer roam outside the city gates of heaven.


Most say everyone is obliterated.

But for God to actually get his will he needs to have everyone in their right place.


Thus just like hell which was the realm of the dead before being done away with.

The kingdom of God has an inside and an outside.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Most of Christianity believes in Eternal Torment, but they do not believe 1 Corinthians 15:26, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 21:4, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, etcetera. But does not the Bible say “for ever” (forever) in regards to our punishment? Even outer darkness appears to be for ever, according to Jude 1:13.

Jude 1:13
“Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame;wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Well, we need to keep in mind that…

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever in the Bible:

In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “forever,” but not always.
Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.
In other words, the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or its related words) is not forever?

​

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.​

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6) until -- his death.​

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used for a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal,” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible, is true. It does mean "forever," but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever.
Obviously, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living on Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives on Earth.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It’s call freedom in Christ to choose
Between you and God decide would be the right thing is.

If we believe something, there should be Scriptural backing for that belief.

Just read the last chapter of revelation.


Seems like murderer roam outside the city gates of heaven.

The Bible is not written in precise chronological order.
Revelation 22 is a general ending of things and it is not a strict chronological timeline from verse 1 to 21.
Revelation 22:14-15 is only giving us a snapshot towards the end and it is not saying that the wicked will not be annihilated.
Isaiah 66:24 makes it clear that the wicked will end up as carcasses or corpses. It is the aftermath of their destruction.
Revelation 22:1-4 gives a description of the New Earth, but Jesus says that He comes quickly in Revelation 22:12 (Which would be the present time for the writing of Revelation).
Yet, we flap back to the future in Revelation 22:14-15. Meaning, we cannot assume that there is nothing more that will happen after Revelation 22:14-15. In fact, as I said before, Isaiah 66:24 completes the picture (Well, check out Isaiah 66:22-24).

Side Note on Revelation 22:12: I imagine if those who read the Bible with wooden literalism today involving words like “for ever” had lived back in the time of the early church and read Revelation 22:12, they would assume that Jesus is coming quickly in the sense that He must be coming right away in their time. But now we see in retrospect that the word “quickly” is relative from God’s perspective and not our perspective.

Most say everyone is obliterated.

Actually, Conditional Immortality is not the dominant view in Christianity. ECT is the dominant view in Christinaity today.

But for God to actually get his will he needs to have everyone in their right place.

Thus just like hell which was the realm of the dead before being done away with.

The kingdom of God has an inside and an outside.

Need Scripture to help elaborate more on what your saying here.
I do realize that there is an outer court and an inner court in the OT Jewish temples.

 

[MatthewG]

If we believe something, there should be Scriptural backing for that belief.



The Bible is not written in precise chronological order.
Revelation 22 is a general ending of things and it is not a strict chronological timeline from verse 1 to 21.
Revelation 22:14-15 is only giving us a snapshot towards the end and it is not saying that the wicked will not be annihilated.
Isaiah 66:24 makes it clear that the wicked will end up as carcasses or corpses. It is the aftermath of their destruction.
Revelation 22:1-4 gives a description of the New Earth, but Jesus says that He comes quickly in Revelation 22:12 (Which would be the present time for the writing of Revelation).
Yet, we flap back to the future in Revelation 22:14-15. Meaning, we cannot assume that there is nothing more that will happen after Revelation 22:14-15. In fact, as I said before, Isaiah 66:24 completes the picture (Well, check out Isaiah 66:22-24).

Side Note on Revelation 22:12: I imagine if those who read the Bible with wooden literalism today involving words like “for ever” had lived back in the time of the early church and read Revelation 22:12, they would assume that Jesus is coming quickly in the sense that He must be coming right away in their time. But now we see in retrospect that the word “quickly” is relative from God’s perspective and not our perspective.


Actually, Conditional Immortality is not the dominant view in Christianity. ECT is the dominant view in Christinaity today.



Need Scripture to help elaborate more on what your saying here.
I do realize that there is an outer court and an inner court in the OT Jewish temples.

I don’t think you are a judge anyway. I don’t think you have spiritual authority over a Bible.

 

[face2face]

To all:

Hell is a place created for the devil and his angels

Without an origin story it's just your imagination in overload. Consider your opening sentence and try to find a text to support it...
F2F

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Without an origin story it's just your imagination in overload. Consider your opening sentence and try to find a text to support it...
F2F

Matthew 25:41
”Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

In this passage below we see a connection between everlasting fire (verse 8) and hell fire (verse 9).

Matthew 18:8-9
8 “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut themoff, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands ortwo feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it fromthee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye,rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”

Obviously hell fire comes from hell.

The word “hell” in Matthew 18:9 is the Greek word Gehenna. This is the Lake of Fire.

Everlasting fire in Matthew 25:41 is speaking about the Lake of Fire.

 

[face2face]

Matthew 25:41
”Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

In this passage below we see a connection between everlasting fire (verse 8) and hell fire (verse 9).

Matthew 18:8-9
8 “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut themoff, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands ortwo feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it fromthee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye,rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”

Obviously hell fire comes from hell.

The word “hell” in Matthew 18:9 is the Greek word Gehenna. This is the Lake of Fire.

Everlasting fire in Matthew 25:41 is speaking about the Lake of Fire.

You understand what I mean by origin story?

Putting up a verse which has fire, a false accuser and messengers isnt an origin story!!!

You need a backstory to established your narrative but you dont have one which is why you are forced to quote Scripture out of context. Genesis 1-3 is the origin story which sets the scene for the entire plan and purpose of God with mankind but you dont have an origin story for your eternal burning place.

Accepting this fact is the first step in your enlightenment.

F2F