Trying To Work This Out - Outer Darkness

[stunnedbygrace]

Doesn't matter, many will fall away in the coming trib because of not staying with God's Word as written, but instead trying to create their own word by doctrines of men.

Ah, I see. A little cross threading there.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
● Matt 8:11-12 . . I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and
west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the
kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"children of the kingdom" is very likely Jacob's posterity; the Jews. Well; for
sure, not all of his people will be permitted citizenship in the kingdom
predicted in the Old Testament. According to Ezek 20:33-38 a number of the
Jews will be culled from the herd and sent elsewhere.

Outer darkness is again spoken of in Matt 22:13 and Matt 25:30

It appears, from comparison of the available data, that "outer darkness" isn't
a location, rather, a state of mental anguish characterized by the deepest
possible feelings of grief associated with loss.

It's akin to the day that God announced to Moses' people they were going to
have to stay in that awful Sinai outback until they were dead. They missed
their opportunity to enter the land of milk and honey and there was no way
to regain it.

The people must've been pretty upset over that; no doubt they had all been
joyfully looking forward to a new life over there; and there was no use in
praying about it because God had made up His mind.

I've only experienced deep personal grief associated with irreversible loss
but one time; that was when my No.1 nephew passed away suddenly of
natural causes at the age of 51. I had held him in my arms upon returning
home from the Army in 1964 when he was only a couple of weeks old.

News of his passing has thus far been the only time in my 79 years that I
actually clenched my teeth, sobbing out of control, and choking, while
clinging to a handrail in the front room to keep from losing my balance and
falling to the floor. Matt 8:11-12 is likely speaking of a similar depth of
grief, or possibly worse.
_

 

[Lambano]

Thank you. Very much! I finally have a bit of evidence (one verse) that what I’ve hoped for many years is true - that it only lasts for the thousand years and is a purgatorial type place.

This is huge for me. The last time I got such a huge help was a few months ago when I found the verse in Rev 20 that did away with pretrib rapture.

Im relieved. Again, thank you.

Where ARE my manners? You're welcome. That I could be of help makes me happy indeed.

 

[gadar]

Don't know who this guy is but he expresses a Reformed theology which I believe to be false. He referenced outer darkness not as a place, i.e. hell, LOF, but instead as being in a state of "shame." Calvinists of course cannot admit that genuine believers can ever lose their salvation so instead of being consigned to the LOF, believers will only experience shame but not the loss of salvation itself. However, that notion conflicts with Jesus' own teaching in Luke 12.
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Jesus made it clear that those who are supposed to be his servants (believers) will be called into account for their disobedience and will be assigned to a PLACE with the UNBELIEVERS. That place is the lake of fire. Calvinism denies Jesus' own teaching.

 

[face2face]

The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.

Isaiah 8 - To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn. They will pass through the land dejected and hungry, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will become enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Mathew 8-Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mathew 22 - Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have some difficulty with this one too, because I don’t see the called but not chosen as wicked. I see them as the righteous. However, if you don’t ever get to chosen and IN Him, I think you can at least be clothed in humility and counted among the righteous. Don’t know, have some confusion here…but this parable seems to agree that the man was not clothed in humility - Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.


I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.

Bible Imagery! There is Israelitish darkness as there is Gentile darkness, all metaphoric for the absence of light and truth. Best you first understand the image then determine its meaning and significance in the context of the passage. You will struggle if you read the text literally unfortunately.

Take your opening paragraph.

"The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down."

Just in a few words explain what you think outer darkness means as Jesus used it?

F2F

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Outer darkness is a place where unfaithful or unprofitable Christians go.
Wicked unbelievers go to a place called "Torments" (hell), which is described in the real-life story of Lazarus and the Richman. Both the "outer darkness" and "hell" are temporary holding places before the Judgment happens upon the New Earth (after the Millennium and this old Earth pass away). Those who were in outer darkness and in hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed or annihilated.

 

[face2face]

Outer darkness is a place where unfaithful or unprofitable Christians go.
Wicked unbelievers go to a place called "Torments" (hell), which is described in the real-life story of Lazarus and the Richman. Both the "outer darkness" and "hell" are temporary holding places before the Judgment happens upon the New Earth (after the Millennium and this old Earth pass away). Those who were in outer darkness and in hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed or annihilated.

Wow that's a mouthful!
Any Scripture to support this temporary holding facility?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow that's a mouthful!
Any Scripture to support this temporary holding facility?

It is more of an indirect conclusion based off a series of other verses.

Take for example how there will be no more night on the New Earth.
Revelation 22:5 says, “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” A place of outer darkness could not exist on the New Earth. But Revelation says there will be no more sorrow. pain, etcetera.

“…there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4). Yes, I understand this is in context to faithful believers that will enter New Jerusalem, but nothing is mentioned about how there will be sorrow, and pain elsewhere. It sounds pretty conclusive that there really will be no more pain, and sorrow anymore anywhere in the universe. Why? Because the wicked will perish or be destroyed.

Take for example 1 Corinthians 15:26. It says,

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”​

This assumes that there are other enemies of God like the wicked and evil angels that will be destroyed prior to death being destroyed. It’s a logical deduction. I could keep going, but hopefully this should suffice.

Then again, some people don’t like happy endings.
But it’s not a happy ending if you know one of your close unbelieving family members is roasting alive in the Lake of Fire for all eternity or they are in outer darkness being tormented by demons. That’s not really a happy ending. I am not sure anyone could really enjoy the Kingdom if they knew such a truth. But if they are annihiated in the Lake of Fire, you could move on with your life (Knowing that they are not being tortured alive beyond what their crimes call for and they are simply… no more).

Besides, the Lord our God is into fair justice.
But people are not able to sometimes grasp this concept when they talk about God.

Side Note:

Seeing God is into fair justice (See: Luke 12:47), this means that hell and the place of outer darkness operates in such a way that punishes men in proportion to their sins. What do I mean by that? Well, either time operates differently in these places for people or they go through long periods of sleep and then they are awakened at certain times for their punishment before the Judgment and before they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed (annihilated). Meaning, God is fair. A person reaps what they sow. So wicked men who have been in these places since the time of Cain will not being punished more than those wicked men at the end of the Millennium.

 

[face2face]

It is more of an indirect conclusion based off a series of other verses.

Take for example how there will be no more night on the New Earth.
Revelation 22:5 says, “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” A place of outer darkness could not exist on the New Earth. But Revelation says there will be no more sorrow. pain, etcetera.

“…there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4). Yes, I understand this is in context to faithful believers that will enter New Jerusalem, but nothing is mentioned about how there will be sorrow, and pain elsewhere. It sounds pretty conclusive that there really will be no more pain, and sorrow anymore anywhere in the universe. Why? Because the wicked will perish or be destroyed.

Take for example 1 Corinthians 15:26. It says,

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”​

This assumes that there are other enemies of God like the wicked and evil angels that will be destroyed prior to death being destroyed. It’s a logical deduction. I could keep going, but hopefully this should suffice.

Correct! the "outer darkness" is imagery used of the grave, which you rightly state is the last enemy to be removed from the earth. Understanding what is imagery and what is literal is difficult - needs a lot of careful reading.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Correct! the "outer darkness" is imagery used of the grave, which you rightly state is the last enemy to be removed from the earth. Understanding what is imagery and what is literal is difficult - needs a lot of careful reading.

Uh, that's not what I was saying. I am not saying that "outer darkness" is the grave.
That doesn't even make any sense. Outer darkness sounds like a place and not a symbol of the grave.
The context says that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth when the "outer darkness" is mentioned (See Matthew 8:12) (Matthew 22:13) (Matthew 24:51) (Matthew 25:30). Sure, one can do backflip twists with these verses, but it sounds like weeping and gnashing of teeth will take place in "outer darkness."

Take, for example, the Parable of The Unforgiving Servant.

One key verse in this parable says,

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,​

till he should pay all that was due unto him." (Matthew 18:34).​

I believe these tormentors are demons who will torment the unforgiving servant in outer darkness (after they have died).

 

[face2face]

Uh, that's not what I was saying. I am not saying that "outer darkness" is the grave.
That doesn't even make any sense. Outer darkness sounds like a place and not a symbol of the grave.
The context says that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth when the "outer darkness" is mentioned (See Matthew 8:12) (Matthew 22:13) (Matthew 24:51) (Matthew 25:30). Sure, one can do backflip twists with these verses, but it sounds like weeping and gnashing of teeth will take place in "outer darkness."

Take, for example, the Parable of The Unforgiving Servant.

One key verse in this parable says,

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,​

till he should pay all that was due unto him." (Matthew 18:34).​

I believe these tormentors are demons who will torment the unforgiving servant in outer darkness (after they have died).

Just to be clear you also believe in this place of outer darkness lives worms which don't die? Mark 9:48

Could you also explain how worms receive eternal life?

 

[Enoch111]

Just to be clear you also believe in this place of outer darkness lives worms which don't die? Mark 9:48. Could you also explain how worms receive eternal life?

It is not up to anyone to "explain" these matters. You can either accept them or reject them. Most people cannot explain a lot of things. But they accept them and take them for granted.

 

[face2face]

It is not up to anyone to "explain" these matters. You can either accept them or reject them. Most people cannot explain a lot of things. But they accept them and take them for granted.

There is an explanation Enoch.

 

[strepho]

Jesus gave a Analogy in Luke chapter 16, Richman and Lazarus. The Richman went to hell, called sheol and Hades. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. It is outer darkness. The torment is feeling shame, sadness and fear. Pride and self gratification got the Richman thier. The Richman quickly realized he messed up bigtime. Lazarus was seen by Richman across the Gulf, in the bosom of Abraham. Lazarus was in paradise. They're is gulf separating both sides. Neither side can cross over. Theirs two different groups of people in sheol. One group is spirtualty dead. They have opportunity during the millennium to get eternal life. Some people will get eternal life. The second group is the wicked. The wicked hate God, Christian people and God's laws. Second esdras chapter 7 will document this. This wicked group meets the 3 qualifiers for the lake of fire. Read Luke chapter 16, and second esdras chapter 7.

 

[face2face]

Regarding Mathew 8:11-12 we need to appreciate the belief of those receiving the Masters words.

When Jesus said:

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Jews believed that Messiah would come and feast with Israel and with their patriarchs based on Isaiah 25:6

However,

The Gentiles would be excluded basis of Psalm 23:5.

So, a few things to note. The "Kingdom of Heaven" relates to the Kingdom Christ would establish on earth when he comes, a promise still unfulfilled. It's a promise Abraham, Isaac & Jacob are yet to receive, as per Hebrews 11:39.

But what of those rejected?

while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The Jews being the sons of the Kingdom would be thrown into the outer darkness. Firstly, Jesus isn't going to literally throw all these people anywhere - it's figurative language for them being rejected from the Kingdom on earth, but the question is where do they go?

The question is what did the original audience believe was the fate of the rejected?

I think its obvious given the Lord's victory and his authority here...Who can open the "Gates of the grave” See Rev 3:7 cmp Rev 1:18

Enjoy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just to be clear you also believe in this place of outer darkness lives worms which don't die? Mark 9:48

We have to understand that there are several different Greek words for hell. Gehenna, hades, and tartaroō (tartarus). Each of them has its own unique meaning.

I believe that is one possibility that the worms and fire may not die. It is also possible that it is merely using language that the worms and the fire will last as long as the person of punishment exists. In other words, once the fire and worms consume the wicked, it is also possible the fire and worms will cease to exist, too. Onesimus returned to his master forever, but that does not mean they are both immortal.

The Greek word "Gehenna" is used in Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, and Mark 9:47 for the English word "hell." This can be translated as hell and be accurate, but it would be more precise to say, "Lake of Fire" (i.e., Gehenna fire).

The Lake of Fire is the lower region of hell, and hades (the place of torments) will fall down into the Lake of Fire (i.e., be cast into the Lake of Fire).

Mark 9 describes the final event of the Lake of Fire, punishing the wicked, whereby they will eventually be destroyed.

Outer darkness is a temporary place of punishment before being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 66:24 describes the aftermath of God's enemies having been destroyed. They are corpses.

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24).

News flash: Carcases or Corpses are not alive!

Could you also explain how worms receive eternal life?

This is why I lean more toward the belief that the worms will cease to exist when the fire and worms consume the wicked person. But if the worm does exist forever, it would only be by the Lord's power keeping them alive for all eternity. We must remember that we cannot have eternal life without the Son of God or Jesus abiding in us (See 1 John 5:12) (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Is it possible the worms have eternal life a different way because they are not human? Sure. Nothing is impossible for God. But with humans, we know it is clear that a person needs to abide in Christ in order to have eternal life because Jesus is the source of life for human beings.

 

[face2face]

We have to understand that there are several different Greek words for hell. Gehenna, hades, and tartaroō (tartarus). Each of them has its own unique meaning.

I believe that is one possibility that the worms and fire may not die. It is also possible that it is merely using language that the worms and the fire will last as long as the person of punishment exists. In other words, once the fire and worms consume the wicked, it is also possible the fire and worms will cease to exist, too. Onesmith returned to his master forever, but that does not mean they are both immortal.

The Greek word "Gehenna" is used in Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, and Mark 9:47 for the English word "hell." This can be translated as hell and be accurate, but it would be more precise to say, "Lake of Fire" (i.e., Gehenna fire).

The Lake of Fire is the lower region of hell, and hades (the place of torments) will fall down into the Lake of Fire (i.e., be cast into the Lake of Fire).

Mark 9 describes the final event of the Lake of Fire, punishing the wicked, whereby they will eventually be destroyed.

Outer darkness is a temporary place of punishment before being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 66:24 describes the aftermath of God's enemies having been destroyed. They are corpses.

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24).

News flash: Carcases or Corpses are not alive!



This is why I lean more toward the belief that the worms will cease to exist when the fire and worms consume the wicked person. But if the worm does exist forever, it would only be by the Lord's power keeping them alive for all eternity. We must remember that we cannot have eternal life without the Son of God or Jesus abiding in us (See 1 John 5:12) (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Is it possible the worms have eternal life a different way because they are not human? Sure. Nothing is impossible for God. But with humans, we know it is clear that a person needs to abide in Christ in order to have eternal life because Jesus is the source of life for human beings.

Insert head slapping gif here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus gave a Analogy in Luke chapter 16, Richman and Lazarus. The Richman went to hell, called sheol and Hades. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. It is outer darkness. The torment is feeling shame, sadness and fear. Pride and self gratification got the Richman thier. The Richman quickly realized he messed up bigtime. Lazarus was seen by Richman across the Gulf, in the bosom of Abraham. Lazarus was in paradise. They're is gulf separating both sides. Neither side can cross over. Theirs two different groups of people in sheol. One group is spirtualty dead. They have opportunity during the millennium to get eternal life. Some people will get eternal life. The second group is the wicked. The wicked hate God, Christian people and God's laws. Second esdras chapter 7 will document this. This wicked group meets the 3 qualifiers for the lake of fire. Read Luke chapter 16, and second esdras chapter 7.

This is a man-made doctrine that is cooked up in the churches and not anything biblical. Outer darkness is not associated with the place of torments in Luke 16. There is no connection given in Scripture, and they do not sound like the same place anymore than the bottomless pit that Satan is cast into sounds like the same place that the Rich man went to (which is Hades (Greek) or the place of torment).

Outer darkness is always compared to unfaithful believers, not unbelievers. The Rich man is not described as being a believer. This places him in the generic unbeliever camp.

Created men like to have a neat understanding of things, but God does not conform to our thoughts or our way of thinking. God's ways are above our ways.

 

[Behold]

Outer Darkness is the 2nd Death.
Its to exist outside of Eternal life "in Christ"who is the "Light of the world".

A "child of the Light" is a born again Christian, who exists "In Light" that is the KOG.
This is to exist "IN Christ", who is the "Light of the World".

If you die, never being born again you are eternally separated from God, from THE Light , from Christ and from Heaven.
This is the 2nd Death, or "outer Darkness".

There is "spiritual darkness" that is to be "mind blinded from the Truth" by the Devil.
And there is "outer darkness" that is to be eternally apart from Eternal Life that is the LIGHT where God exists.
"God exists in LIGHT".
If you are never born again you never exit in the Light that is to be found "in Christ".

That "outer" spiritual place is the 2nd Death, that is found IN Hell and the Lake of fire as the eternal destination of a unbeliever who was never born again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Insert head slapping gif here.

Definition for Gehenna (geenna) (γέεννα):

1. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Source:
Strong's 1067 - BlueLetterBible.org

Again, you do not understand the timing of events by understanding the differences between the Greek words. Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, and Mark 9:47 describe the final end of the wicked (Which paints the same picture we see in Isaiah 66:24). If you were to read Isaiah 66:24 in the King James Bible, you would see that these are carcasses or corpses, and they are not alive. So even if these worms were alive forever, it does not mean that the wicked person or corpse is still alive. Corpses, by definition, are dead and not alive, but ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Proponents have to twist Scripture to be metaphorical in this instance when there is no clear indication that it is a metaphor.

Gehenna = The Lake of fire (or Gehenna fire, which was parallel to the earthly valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Hades = The Place of Torments that the Richman went to in the spiritual realm of the dead (Sheol).

Tartaroō = A special holding place or prison for those certain angels who rebelled or sinned by mating with human females, thus creating the Nephilim. The Nephilim existed right before and after the global flood (even during King David's time).

Side Note:

Also, I imagine you may take issue with my saying that the worms could be either eternal, and this is different than humans having eternal life by abiding in Jesus Christ. Well, you may not know this, but exceptions to the rule on certain truths in the Bible are not uncommon. Remember when the Canaanite woman expanded upon Jesus' parable? She said even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. Now, most Christians today would have heard Jesus and shut their mouth because Jesus said it, and that's it... end of the story. Jesus sounded like He did not come for the Gentiles, which sounded pretty ironclad. But the woman had faith and knew a "truth" (that was a rule of exception for her particular case).